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The Trump Years- Every day something more shocking than the last! (10 Viewers)

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bradyfan said:
I know older folks pay 5 times (instead of 3 times) as much as a younger person under AHCA.   Why are insurance companies not spreading the cost?  Are they trying to force old people out of their plans?
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I'd like to know how things like this work in countries with universal coverage, such as the UK, Canada, Spain and Australia. 

 
SWC said:
brohans listen i am still mad at the cia for wiretapping my ham and cheese hot pocket i mean listen pepperoni maybe i can see the point but you toucha my ham and cheesey and we gots a problem you and meesey that is all i am sayin take that to the bank 
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It is the Persian hot pockets we need to keep a close eye on.  

 
Steeler said:
There are plenty of negatives to discuss about Trump, and this was a very valid claim before the election trying to sway peoples vote, but now I don't see the point in arguing this any longer. Is someone who voted for Trump going to slap their forehead and think they actually do believe they condone sexual abuse just because you say so?
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I agree with you that the argument is wholly ineffective, bordering on counterproductive. No one who voted for Trump truly gives a #### about those comments.

However, by remaining silent we run the huge risk of normalizing the behavior. If you ask anyone straight up whether or not they condone sexual assault the vast majority will say "Hell no." but I think we underestimate the impact having a misogynistic president has on the collective subconscious. 

I don't have a good answer but I err on the side of at least occasionally reminding everyone hat despite him being awarded, what Trump said/did is not even remotely okay.

 
Mr.Pack said:
@Koya it's more than apparent to everyone else.
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Really? Seems a number of folks agree with me. 

More importantly some, like @adonis, have replied in a legitimate and thoughtful manner. Which, in turn, made me think inwardly about my approach. He has earned that respect. 

The smiley faced crew? Couldn't much care as they have done anything but earn respect. Those like Adonis do make me think about my faults as how I could be a more impactful and positive force on this board and elsewhere. That, unlike the smiley faced crew, is something we should all appreciate. 

 
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Matthias said:
Been happening for decades. Hasn't ever changed their votes. A couple of years ago there was a clip of some guy from Wisconsin. Who was strongly and vehemently against Obamacare. Vehemently. Then he developed a life-threatening condition. Had to fall onto Obamacare. And it saved his life. Then, and only then, did he come around. But the idea that it was giving him affordable care until then? Didn't stop his opposition.
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It's in the conservative DNA...

Nancy Reagan supported gun control and stem cell research because of what happened to her husband

**** Cheney supports gay rights because of his daughter

Limbaugh was all about sending people to prison for drug use until he got addicted

It's one of the base differences between liberals and conservatives - liberals can have empathy for a situation without it having to directly affect them. 

 
honky kong said:
It's in the conservative DNA...

Nancy Reagan supported gun control and stem cell research because of what happened to her husband

**** Cheney supports gay rights because of his daughter

Limbaugh was all about sending people to prison for drug use until he got addicted

It's one of the base differences between liberals and conservatives - liberals can have empathy for a situation without it having to directly affect them. 
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Such generalizations are never accurate or fair.  There is empathy in everyone to some degree.  People tend to have more empathy for people who share their values.  I really don't see too much empathy from liberals towards conservatives.  On this page alone we have one wishing harm on conservatives for being against Obamacare.  

 
Good article with some interesting points (even if you think 'constitutional crisis' is overblown (though I don't)):

...The first, most obvious layer of crisis is the corrosion of the presidency. Voters chose an inept, paranoid, emotionally unstable bully as commander in chief and quarterback of the nuclear football.

The crisis isn’t that he’s steering the ship of state in the wrong direction by pursuing harmful policies. That’s allowed, like it or not. Politics is about debating policies. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. No, what makes this president unique is that he doesn’t understand the concept of steering. He’s as likely to capsize us or steer onto the rocks as to arrive anywhere.

The second layer is the Russian attack on America’s democratic process. We know — assuming we trust the unanimous assessment of all 17 intelligence agencies — that the Kremlin mounted a deliberate campaign to undermine Hillary Clinton and boost Donald Trump.

…[SIZE=12pt]This much we do know: The Russian hacking that Trump cheered on was an attack on the United States by its geopolitical adversary. This is a new form of warfare — invasion by electrons rather than tanks, but warfare nonetheless.[/SIZE]

The third layer is the helplessness of America’s constitutional system. Unlike parliamentary democracies, which can dissolve legislatures and dismiss prime ministers at will, the U.S. Constitution makes removing a president a national trauma. The process is meant to ensure stability. It worked for 229 years.

But the Founders didn’t fathom the likes of Trump, who doesn’t understand the job, won’t learn, lacks impulse control and can’t tolerate opposition or criticism. Each should be disqualifying, but none rises to impeachable offense. It seems a president can be ruinous, yet legal.

Nor does the Constitution imagine a political environment so poisonously polarized that checks and balances collapse.

…[SIZE=12pt]Finally, the fourth layer of America’s constitutional crisis: the absence of an opposition party. Democrats today don’t control a single branch of the federal government. They hold just 13 state legislatures and 16 governorships. They have less power in Washington and nationwide today than at any time since at least 1928. There are numerous competing analyses of why the Democrats have fallen so far: Putin’s hacking, James Comey’s blabbering, misogyny, racism, Clinton’s battered image. Each played a role, but Democrats face more fundamental challenges.[/SIZE]

…Alas, when you present yourself as the voice of minorities, the majority looks elsewhere. Sending the message that your onetime base is racist and homophobic isn’t a winning electoral strategy. You can’t tell voters their values stink and then ask them to vote for you.

And after a few decades of minorities-first strategy, it turns out you can’t even defend minorities if you don’t win elections. Today states are lining up to restrict voting rights, with the Supreme Court’s blessing. Five of every six counties lack even a single abortion provider. Even when you do win a few elections, it’s been so long since you last delivered decent wages and job security that you’ve forgotten how. Working families, desperate for relief, vote with pitchforks. The next thing you know, Donald Trump takes the White House, and America is in crisis mode.

It’s not too late to change course, but it’s close.
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jon_mx said:
Such generalizations are never accurate or fair.  There is empathy in everyone to some degree.  People tend to have more empathy for people who share their values.  I really don't see too much empathy from liberals towards conservatives.  On this page alone we have one wishing harm on conservatives for being against Obamacare.  
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Sure, there is some empathy within conservatives - to the degree that something affects them. Hence, your statement following that. They have plenty of empathy for people just like them because they don't have to stretch to see themselves in that situation.

And of course it's a generalization - no group is monolithic. I thought that went without saying.

 
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Plagiarism disqualified her from joining the U.S. National Security Council, but a Fox News contributor just registered as a lobbyist for a Ukrainian billionaire.

Bizarro World just keeps writing itself.

Monica Crowley told the Justice Department's National Security Division that she will represent billionaire Victor Pinchuk in discussions with U.S. government officials “and other policy makers” regarding “issues of concern to Mr. Pinchuk.”
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Viktor Pinchuk wants Ukraine to capitulate to Russia

Three Donald Trump advisers met with Russia at Republican Convention; Ukraine platform changed

Three of Donald Trump’s campaign advisers, including current Attorney General Jeff Sessions, met with the Russian Ambassador in Cleveland during the 2016 Republican National Convention. The Trump-led Republican Party then went on to fundamentally alter its party platform during the convention, reversing its stance on the conflict between Russia and the Ukraine.
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timschochet said:
And you know Saints, from now on whenever somebody makes the bogus charge that racism and white nationalism is generally a southern thing, bringing up Steve King from Iowa should make them shut up.
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And occasionally we have had some white nationalists on this forum (which could be inferred from their beliefs) and none of them were from the south IIRC. For example, SIDA lives here in Southern California (Santa Monica?) and was always talking about his white pride, white culture and nationalism (although, to be fair, he never actually labeled himself a white nationalist and denied that he was one). He also belonged to some fringe alt-right group that he refused to give the name of because at some rally they held they were attacked by "Democrats, leftists and minorities" and there was supposedly news footage out there he said would allow people here to identify him.

Anyway, you point is well taken that racism/nationalism are everywhere in this country, including The Corn Belt.

 
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jon_mx said:
Such generalizations are never accurate or fair.  There is empathy in everyone to some degree.  People tend to have more empathy for people who share their values.  I really don't see too much empathy from liberals towards conservatives.  On this page alone we have one wishing harm on conservatives for being against Obamacare.  
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We should indeed be more understanding of people whose judgment is so poor that they would vote for a president and congresspeople who have pledged to remove their best chance at accessing affordable health care.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
:lmao:

I am seriously embarrassed for you at times. 
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Sorry you feel that way. 

But, trust me, I am all good with my approach, even understanding that at times I may get overly emotional and, for some, just too blunt and direct about very uncomfortable realities. 

Id say I'm embarrassed for you and others who take your tact, but it's honestly not worth it.  

That said, I'm not going to lay down and will continue to point out the underlying realities at root here, so best prepare yourself for more embarrassment. 

 
McGarnicle said:
I have a cousin who hates black people and moved to Iowa 5 years ago. That's all I know about Iowa, other than this Steve King brouhahaha, so obviously it's just a state filled with racists, basketball and corn.
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Basketball is more Indiana.

 
fatness said:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/cbo-republican-health-care-bill-raises-premiums-for-older-poor-americans-by-more-than-750.html

The bill does bring down overall premiums in the individual market by about 10 percent by 2026 compared with what they would be under current law, the CBO found. But the CBO includes a big caveat: This would greatly differ based on age and income.

The CBO offers an example of a single individual with an annual income of $26,500.

If that person is 21 years old, he'll largely benefit from the Republican health care bill. Under the Affordable Care Act (also known as Obamacare), he would on average pay $1,700 in premiums for insurance. Under the Republican plan, he would pay $1,450.

But if that person is 64 years old, he would be hurt by the Republican bill. Under Obamacare, he would also pay $1,700 in premiums for insurance. But under the Republican bill, he would pay $14,600 — more than half his annual income. That amounts to more than a 750 percent increase in premiums from Obamacare to the Republican bill.
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Free market death panels.  If you're old and poor, the free market will get together and decide whether you live or die.  

 
squistion said:
And occasionally we have had some white nationalists on this forum (which could be inferred from their beliefs) and none of them were from the south IIRC. For example, SIDA lives here in Southern California (Santa Monica?) and was always talking about his white pride, white culture and nationalism (although, to be fair, he never actually labeled himself a white nationalist and denied that he was one). He also belonged to some fringe alt-right group that he refused to give the name of because at some rally they held they were attacked by "Democrats, leftists and minorities" and there was supposedly news footage out there he said would allow people here to identify him.

Anyway, you point is well taken that racism/nationalism are everywhere in this country, including The Corn Belt.
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Let's not pretend that racism exists only in just the south - and while there are degrees and many shades of grey, let's also not ignore the significant racism among Liberals and certain communities that align with the left... some have learned the decorum to talk the talk better, but beneath is just as much fear of their daughter hooking up with a black guy, hate toward Arab and Muslim populations and other discriminatory thoughts and behaviours.

 
Koya said:
Really? Seems a number of folks agree with me. 

More importantly some, like @adonis, have replied in a legitimate and thoughtful manner. Which, in turn, made me think inwardly about my approach. He has earned that respect. 

The smiley faced crew? Couldn't much care as they have done anything but earn respect. Those like Adonis do make me think about my faults as how I could be a more impactful and positive force on this board and elsewhere. That, unlike the smiley faced crew, is something we should all appreciate. 
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I think about how much I've learned on this board from people willing to take the time with me to talk me out of some strongly held incorrect views.  I'll likely never meet any of them, but it was only through their attempts to explain to me, someone who actually cares about truth, about why I was wrong.

I think as a society we've moved more into a position of sharing conclusions with each other without the ability/desire/effort to share discussions about how we got to those conclusions, and additionally, be open to the idea that we may be wrong about our own approaches.  It's nothing new really, to society or to even think this, but more and more I see folks just sharing conclusions rather than being willing to do the more deep work of sharing how they arrived at those conclusions, and being willing to have their own thoughts challenged and give the challenges a reasonable hearing.

Truth, to me, is paramount...and I like to think that at our best, we can approach dialogue with other people as something like the scientific method...where you enter a conversation with a belief/position (hypothesis), you lay out your reasons for believing it (procedure), and then you get a result from someone else who analyzes what you say and provides their own feedback (results).  Then you survey the results, determine whether any improvements can be made to your original hypothesis, and in the end, ideally you come away with a better set of beliefs (conclusions).

I like lobbing grenades from time to time, making jokes, insulting folks...but I do try, when i see someone else is legitimately willing to have a conversation, to do so...in doing so, either I may be able to help them improve their thinking, or they in turn help me improve mine.  It's somewhat more difficult to constantly have your views shown to be wrong, but it's much better that than continuing to believe false things.  So i try to hang around people smarter than me...and on this forum, there's enough of a mix where that's pretty easy.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
We're all on the edge of our seats waiting for your next over the top, ridiculous, non-sensical post telling everyone else what they think for them.
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Never told anyone, including you, what to think. Never told anyone "why" they voted for someone. 

I have and will mention how each reflects upon you and others.  And I will point out clear commonalities that can be surmised by people's comments and actions on here and can be deducted by who/what issues they support. 

Neither of those are telling you nor anyone else why they voted as they did (though we can certainly make some educated guesses) nor is it telling you what you think. You do a pretty solid job of that yourself. 

Example, calling someone out for supporting a misogynistic ####### who is a fraud and as part of his platform utilized racist and nationalist language while following a clear fascist playbook (like, literally) is not telling you "how" to think. It IS pointing out a truism, but that's all. Maybe by calling out the obvious, some people feel less uncomfortable diverting from the underlying substance of the discussion by claiming I'm "telling them" how to think... but I'm not. 

Think what you wish, just be prepared to be embarrassed* by me pointing out what is being said. 

*emarassed for ME of course. Just to clarify. :coffee:  

 
adonis said:
I think about how much I've learned on this board from people willing to take the time with me to talk me out of some strongly held incorrect views.  I'll likely never meet any of them, but it was only through their attempts to explain to me, someone who actually cares about truth, about why I was wrong.

I think as a society we've moved more into a position of sharing conclusions with each other without the ability/desire/effort to share discussions about how we got to those conclusions, and additionally, be open to the idea that we may be wrong about our own approaches.  It's nothing new really, to society or to even think this, but more and more I see folks just sharing conclusions rather than being willing to do the more deep work of sharing how they arrived at those conclusions, and being willing to have their own thoughts challenged and give the challenges a reasonable hearing.

Truth, to me, is paramount...and I like to think that at our best, we can approach dialogue with other people as something like the scientific method...where you enter a conversation with a belief/position (hypothesis), you lay out your reasons for believing it (procedure), and then you get a result from someone else who analyzes what you say and provides their own feedback (results).  Then you survey the results, determine whether any improvements can be made to your original hypothesis, and in the end, ideally you come away with a better set of beliefs (conclusions).

I like lobbing grenades from time to time, making jokes, insulting folks...but I do try, when i see someone else is legitimately willing to have a conversation, to do so...in doing so, either I may be able to help them improve their thinking, or they in turn help me improve mine.  It's somewhat more difficult to constantly have your views shown to be wrong, but it's much better that than continuing to believe false things.  So i try to hang around people smarter than me...and on this forum, there's enough of a mix where that's pretty easy.
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All of this is appreciated. If you are ever in Dallas and I'm not going to a strip club with @rockaction and @Joe T I'll buy drinks.

If I AM going to a strip club with these mutha####as, join us all the more... but you can buy drinks. 

:banned:  

 
timschochet said:
And you know Saints, from now on whenever somebody makes the bogus charge that racism and white nationalism is generally a southern thing, bringing up Steve King from Iowa should make them shut up.
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Or just watch the tenacity and aggression of the Chicago crowds when MLK marched there.  Can someone remind me again why white people were so angry?   Seriously...watch the video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKApBzO9C0

 
Trump complains about all the leaks in DC. It's interesting that there have been no leaks to help validate his "wiretapping" claim.

 
Koya said:
All of this is appreciated. If you are ever in Dallas and I'm not going to a strip club with @rockaction and @Joe T I'll buy drinks.

If I AM going to a strip club with these mutha####as, join us all the more... but you can buy drinks. 

:banned:  
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I kind of like this idea, though I'm not sure how I'll be in Dallas. Had a great friend who lived in Dallas, BTW. That was years ago, though. 

Anyway, best of luck with what you're doing.  

:D

 
3C's said:
Trump complains about all the leaks in DC. It's interesting that there have been no leaks to help validate his "wiretapping" claim.
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This is like a Punch`n`Judy show.

- IIRC yesterday Spicer claimed Trump wasn't claiming he was tapp-ed.

Then Hannity claimed that it was the media's fault that Trump claimed that.

Now they have prove there was a tapp after all?

Ok, bs `til proved otherwise, which is the general rule.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
This is like a Punch`n`Judy show.

- IIRC yesterday Spicer claimed Trump wasn't claiming he was tapp-ed.

Then Hannity claimed that it was the media's fault that Trump claimed that.

Now they have prove there was a tapp after all?

Ok, bs `til proved otherwise, which is the general rule.
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Apparently the "proof" now will be that the Russian was surveilled inside Trump tower which equals Obama "tapping" his (Trump) phones inside Trump tower.

 
SoBeDad said:
I'd like to know how things like this work in countries with universal coverage, such as the UK, Canada, Spain and Australia. 
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I'll take a stab at this. Back when the ACA was going through 15 months of hearings, PBS asked economist Paul Solman that question:

Paul Solman: The simple answer is that health care is far less expensive everywhere else in the world. One reason often given is the enormous cost of administering a private competitive system like ours. Think of all the people just at insurance companies, trying to figure out what you’re eligible for (and how to save the companies money). Then think of all the people working in hospitals, trying to figure out how to get more money out of the people working at insurance companies.


In addition, there’s the ever-higher price of technology, including pharmaceuticals. We pay top dollar for drugs in America and the government doesn’t use its enormous buying power to force down prices, as other countries do. Plus, unlike most countries the world over, we allow direct advertising to consumers in the US. It all adds up.
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BobbyLayne said:
I'll take a stab at this. Back when the ACA was going through 15 months of hearings, PBS asked economist Paul Solman that question:
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Health care is an issue that absolutely strikes at my libertarian spirit. Everything tells me less government, more private competitiveness.

until I realize that the motives of the private sector are simple at utter odds with the purpose of health care (the ideal situation is to see a doc as least often as possible and need the least meds and services... which is antithetical to business 101).

as I mentioned before, I began to realize that we would be more free  as individuals by releasing ourselves from the negative impact of free market forces rather than allowing ourselves to be subordinate to those forces. 

Would rather harness the benefits of the market to provide better solutions with more effecient and customer oriented delivery of services and let the overall cost structure and business model be managed in a manner that lowers costs overall while delivering better care, overall. Far more equitable and, IMO, provides for more personal freedom. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
This is like a Punch`n`Judy show.

- IIRC yesterday Spicer claimed Trump wasn't claiming he was tapp-ed.

Then Hannity claimed that it was the media's fault that Trump claimed that.

Now they have prove there was a tapp after all?

Ok, bs `til proved otherwise, which is the general rule.
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I feel sorry for the poor history teachers 20-30 years from now who are going to have to try and explain to children what in the giant F was going on in our country at this time.

 
Reg Lllama of Brixton said:
 When I think about forever, I get upset. Like the Land O’Lakes butter has that Indian girl, sitting, holding a box. And it has a picture of her on it, holding a box. With a picture of her on it, holding a box. Have you ever noticed that?

-Sally Draper
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In southern Ohio, just north of Cincinnati
I beheld a vision, next to the expressway.
Was a 60 foot Jesus, with his hands in the air
looks like he’s carved out of butter,
just like at the state fair

- Heywood Banks.

 

 
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