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2022 Minnesota Vikings (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Heatman
- Start date
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Call me crazy but I don't think the Wilfs should be sitting on their hands. Vikings schedule isn't getting any easier. They should fire Spielman during the buy and replace him right away. Make it known that all the veteran players including Cousins are available for trade. I doubt they could move him but I would try. I rather seem them blow the whole team up rather than stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine. Worst case scenario is they win 3 more games and lose out on a higher draft pick. It should be about putting your team in position to better next year and the year after. .
The team isn't strong enough on either line, along with the lack of cover corners, to consistently win games. If you think they can win 8 wins in a row, I think you are living in a fantasy land. I predict that they will fire Zimmer after they get torched by the Packers with only days ahead of the trade deadline. Meanwhile, the man that gave Cousins the biggest contract in NFL history keeps his job, at least, to the end of the year.
The team isn't strong enough on either line, along with the lack of cover corners, to consistently win games. If you think they can win 8 wins in a row, I think you are living in a fantasy land. I predict that they will fire Zimmer after they get torched by the Packers with only days ahead of the trade deadline. Meanwhile, the man that gave Cousins the biggest contract in NFL history keeps his job, at least, to the end of the year.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I agree with a lot of your post, but what is the market for the sort of GM you would hope to land in week 7? Would a guy jump from a job on an aspiring team? Seems like a job better filled just after a season.
sports_fan
Footballguy
Say you can only get rid of one of Zimmer or Spielman. Who goes first? I'm thinking it has to be Zimmer. I've supported him a long time, but it's getting harder to do so. The situation feels similar to Thibodeau with the Wolves where you have a stubborn coach who refuses to adapt to a changing league or tailor schemes and play style to fit his roster. I think for the most part, over the years Spielman has done a good job of getting players that fit the way Zimmer wants to play, when there's any deviation from that the team suffers significantly like we're seeing now. Talent wise this is better than a 1 win team. That's on the coach.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
This is like a reverse Sophie's Choice where you dislike both your children and don't care one way or the other which one guys.
snogger
Footballguy
IMO...I think Zimmer, thanks to Wilf's encouragement, plays "Co-GM" to the point where Speilman drafts that which Zimmer wants, rather then that which the Team needs.
BigJim®
Footballguy
100% Spielman for me. You need to believe in a GM to believe in the new coach, and I don't. We have a whole team of curmudgeon coaches today, and a roster complied by Spielman that does not fit at all what a curmudgeon coach wants to do. Top down change is needed.
BigJim®
Footballguy
JMHO, this is more an indictment on Spielman. It's my issue if I feed my kids candy for dinner just because they want it. It's my job as a parent to know what is best for them. That's Spielman's job, and who he takes input from is on him alone.IMO...I think Zimmer, thanks to Wilf's encouragement, plays "Co-GM" to the point where Speilman drafts that which Zimmer wants, rather then that which the Team needs.
ETA: The actual problem you describe is not fixed by changing coaches.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Sorry if I made you mad BigJim.
The Vikings offensive line is poor at pass protection still, again in the bottom part of the league according to FBO
3rd best in adjusted line yards (run blocking) but 27th in pass protection. Right now the Bengals are 31st in pass protextion. Is this not good enough for Joe Burrow to have a chance to develop? His career is over because he doesn't have good protection?
I think QBs cause their own pressure by not being active in the pocket and holding the ball too long and that is the case with Cousins. It is also a part of the scheme. It takes time to play action fake and then turn around on those bootlegs that teams seem to be anticipating very well. I think that anticipation is at least partly Cousins fault for not doing the little things to keep the defense guessing.
I agree with you as far as Cousins goes, everything needs to be very good around him for him to be successful. I think a QB with decent mobility can make a difference as far as dealing with pressure.
If I were to agree with you about the offensive line then that would mean the Vikings wont be able to develop a QB for another 2 seasons IF they can get the offensive line to be playing good by then.
Its just too much to ask as important as I do think it is for them to improve there. We have been talking about this for almost a decade now.
The Vikings offensive line is poor at pass protection still, again in the bottom part of the league according to FBO
3rd best in adjusted line yards (run blocking) but 27th in pass protection. Right now the Bengals are 31st in pass protextion. Is this not good enough for Joe Burrow to have a chance to develop? His career is over because he doesn't have good protection?
I think QBs cause their own pressure by not being active in the pocket and holding the ball too long and that is the case with Cousins. It is also a part of the scheme. It takes time to play action fake and then turn around on those bootlegs that teams seem to be anticipating very well. I think that anticipation is at least partly Cousins fault for not doing the little things to keep the defense guessing.
I agree with you as far as Cousins goes, everything needs to be very good around him for him to be successful. I think a QB with decent mobility can make a difference as far as dealing with pressure.
If I were to agree with you about the offensive line then that would mean the Vikings wont be able to develop a QB for another 2 seasons IF they can get the offensive line to be playing good by then.
Its just too much to ask as important as I do think it is for them to improve there. We have been talking about this for almost a decade now.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
Sometimes I think it would just be easier for me to pick a different team instead of trying to figure out how they can fix things!! 
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
And Ngakoue is gone....
BigJim®
Footballguy
No worries. My initial reply was snarky but I deleted because we both want the same thing, and I don't want to misdirect my frustration at another fan.Biabreakable said:
The success running the ball is a bit of a head scratcher for me, given that this team can't even make a single critical yard running when games are on the line.
I probably won't see eye to eye on any justification to deprioritize line. I've always been a delayed gratification guy, I'm not in a real hurry as long as there's a light at the end of the tunnel. We've waited this long, what's the rush to embrace groundhog day? I'd welcome one or two 4-12 seasons if I saw groundwork being laid to provide a future rookie QB the protection he needs to develop. Short term lumps are needed sometimes.
And here's the real problem in my mind: You are hanging your hopes on a GM who has no track record finding a franchise (or developmental) QB for teams desperately seeking one. Well, even that is maybe too nice. In his various personnel positions in Chicago/Miami/Minnesota since 1997, he's been associated with the following draft picks (to whatever extent):
Chicago 1997-1999: Moses Moreno (7th), Cade McNown (1st)
Miami 2000-2005: Josh Heupel (6th) [Jay Fiedler was made starter in 2000 and no other rookies drafted to challenge his role]
Minnesota 2006-current: Tarvaris Jackson (2nd), Tyler Thigpen (7th), John David Booty (5th), Joe Webb (6th), Christian Ponder (1st), Teddy Bridgewater (1st), Nathan Stanley (7th). This is of course ignoring the long list of UDFA's Spielman has signed in his tenure in Minnesota as developmental hopefuls.
JMHO, that's a putrid record - both using early draft picks for a franchise starter, and late picks for a developmental QB. You mentioned Burrows, the consensus #1 pick from 2020 draft, and I think it's a bit of a red herring unless you believe the Vikes are going to be positioned for Lawrence... I just don't see it. More likely we're relying on Spielman's judgment selecting a non-consensus #1 pick, and hitching our wagon to that guy for the next 3-4 years, OL still in shambles for that guy.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
I understand that, but what can you do? It was a 1 year deal and if he wont be back, you get what you can for him. What you initially gave up at this point is irrelevant.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Getting what they could is fine. Sunk cost and all that. It was giving up the 2nd for a rental in the first place that was the problem.
They must not expect him to get much in a FA contact since they'd get a compensatory 3rd if he diddid.
snogger
Footballguy
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
More likely a high second for 2 4th's, a 5th, 6th and 2 7th's by the time Rick is done with it...
sports_fan
Footballguy
Traded a 2nd and conditional 5th for him and got a 3rd and conditional 5th back. Moving backwards but they weren't going to be able to resign him anyway so I'll take it. Danielle Hunter had surgery, ending any chance he would return this season. Looks like the rebuild is on.
Better to get the higher 3rd rounder in 2021, than in 2022 I guess.
I wonder if it ends here? Could see Reiff, Rudolph, and Harris, all drawing interest if the season is basically being called. Personally, I think this is a decent team, in a transition year, that lost a couple 50-50 games. Could have easily beaten both Seattle and Tennessee. Much like Houston/Atlanta this is a talented 1-5 team, but is still 1-5. Perhaps they should follow those teams lead and get rid of Zimmer/Spielman. I think they are both better than O'Brien was, but I'm not sure if they are better than what Atlanta had, specifically Dimitroff.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I agree the handling of the back up QB position has not been good and the attempts at using high draft picks at the position has not worked either, although I would have liked to see what Teddy could have done if he didn't get injured.
I do not like their decision to go with Sean Mannion as the back up this year. He brings nothing if he has to play. He is basically a coach not a QB. How I wish they had some one, anyone to bring in and bench Cousins for playing like trash. Even if just for the 2nd half of the game. They are in no position right now to consider doing that and its Spielmans fault for not rostering any QB who could actually play.
I hear you that you would be willing to have a couple losing seasons to build a foundation of the offensive line. I can respect that. I don't think many people are willing to be that patient. Especially coaches.
I think you miss my point about Joe Burrow. You previously said that unless the Vikings fix their offensive line that they wont be able to develop a new QB. The Bengals have a worse offensive line than the Vikings do right now but I do not think that will prevent Burrow from developing. If you really think that is a necessary component for a QB to develop, then most of the QBs in the league never have a chance to develop either.
The yards before contact stat that FBO uses is affected by the RBs not just the offensive line. It measures how many yards the RB got before contact. Cook was leading the league in yards before contact and yards after contract because he was leading the league in rushing yards period. So Cook is helping those numbers. Similarly the QB play does have an effect on the pass blocking numbers as well.
I think I understand where you are coming from. Your outlook and path to success is a longer road than I think most of us would be willing to take.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I wonder if the Michael Pierce deal being tolled to next season is part of this equation?
The Vikings lost a lot of free agents in 2020 and some of them signed to big contracts like Trey Waynes. Those signings get offset by big money contract the Vikings give to free agents. So maybe in their calculus of this they didn't see themselves getting the 3rd round comp pick for him?
It doesn't really make sense to me to take so little when they could play him all year and still get similar return. It definitely signals that the Vikings have given up on contending this year.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
But there is the possibility of signing him in the offseason anyway...if that is the case then the deal is gold!!
BigJim®
Footballguy
I think it is probably true that the streets are littered with potentially successful QBs who were put in bad situations and failed. 7 games in is awfully early to know whether Burrow will develop fine. Blake Bortles looked promising his first two years, but was sacked 55 (2014) and 51 (2015) times. Sack numbers went down from there, but so too did his performance (went from 4500/35 TDs to out of work). David Carr had sack totals in the 60's if I recall, and he never had a prayer to develop. Deshaun Watson, on the other hand, seems to be handling lack of protection (for now). I just don't think it's logical to choose the approach of putting a hopeful QB behind a bad line on the merit that it can work out. It's a multi year commitment to a guy, and odds are against success. Reading route progressions and dictating movement/placement of safeties are critical to QB success unless he is a freak of nature (I think of Russell Wilson). Most QBs are going to require pass protection to develop.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
I suppose that is possible. Seems unlikely they would let him go if they wanted to keep him.
I listened to some talk about this and a part I didnt consider is that the pick they traded for is for 2021 while the comp pick if they get one wouldn't be until 2022. So considering that and the 3rd round pick being higher than any comp pick would be, it is getting slightly more than they might have by keeping him and letting him sign somewhere else as a free agent.
I heard there is a window where the Vikings could cut Kirk Cousins and only be on the hook for $20 million. They would have to cut him exactly on March 2md to get out of their other obligations to him.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I don;t think it helps a QBs development to be too often under pressure and having to think about other things than reading the defense and getting the ball out on time.
Bortles was never good. He put up numbers on high volume garbage time. Carr got wrecked and part of the problem is he played for an expansion team that had no foundation anywhere. I do think it wrecked what otherwise could have been a more average career for him.
We don't disagree that pass protection is important.
Where I think we disagree is about if a QB can develop under the circumstance of below average pass protection. I think if the QB is good that they can and if they are not they will struggle. It is part of the QBs job to avoid the pass rush and get the ball to their play makers.
So I guess my question for you is what would be good enough offensive line play for a QB to develop? What level of pressure is acceptable and what isn't? Where do you draw the line?
I thought of a team who did things the right way and built up their offensive line so that when they did draft QBs that support was already in place. The Browns. Now they had a ton of high draft picks to be able to do it and they still didn't find their QB until after Joe Thomas retired.
This coaching staff has not shown the ability to scout and develop good offensive linemen besides O'Niel under Spielman for a long time. I do think Bradbury is playing better than last year. I noticed Gil Brandt had him on a honorable mention list of improved 2nd year players. Jury still is out on if he will be good or not. We know even less about Ezra Cleveland who only has one game. There have been a lot of bad choices along the way such as Beavers (did not make the team) and TJ Clemmings (sadly did make the team) but at least those were only 4th round picks.
We won't know for another year or two how Cleveland has panned out. Using high picks is no grantee the players become good starters. It just improves you chances they might be.
The good news is the Vikings have many good tackles on the roster right now. Its possible this offensive line has the foundation to be a good unit as soon as next season if Cleveland and Bradbury keep improving. I would be totally fine with a guard in the 1st round if that can finally put a needed piece in place. They should be able to find a good guard prospect with a later pick than that though.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Albert Breer reporting that Kyle Rudolph. Pat Elflien and Takae Sharpe are on the trade block. There is interest from teams for Rudolph.
Not sure why they would trade Elflien when the offensive line does not seem settled yet and in need of depth inside obviously. Maybe he is in the last year of his contract.
There are some teams in need of WR but I doubt they can get anything for Sharpe.
Not sure why they would trade Elflien when the offensive line does not seem settled yet and in need of depth inside obviously. Maybe he is in the last year of his contract.
There are some teams in need of WR but I doubt they can get anything for Sharpe.
Helaire-ious
Footballguy
What's the likelihood Rudolph gets traded & what are the expected landing spots?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I have no idea how I would assign probability to this.
Things I think I know.
Kyle Rudolph is the 5th highest paid TE in the NFL right now. Other teams not likely to want to take on his contract. So this means from the teams interested, the price will be lower than his worth in free agency. Teams know the Vikings might end up cutting Rudolph next season if they don't trade him because of his salary and the salary cap.
Kyle Rudolph does not want to be traded. He has stated he wants to finish his career as a Vikings. He is a face of the franchise. Does a lot of things with MN community.
In my personal view they over paid Rudolph when they resigned him him. They had just drafted Irv Smith as well. They didn't need to do that, but they had plans of using 2 TE a lot last year which they did do.
I am guessing that the price for Rudolph isn't much, a 4th or 5th round pick and for that the Vikings may as well just keep him for the rest of the year. Maybe try to trade him in the offseason. If a team offered a 3rd round pick or better I think they should take that for him.
Has anyone heard anything about what teams might be offering for Rudolph? As I am just guessing there.
Dark Matter
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
There are rumors about them trading Thielen also. I would expect the price to be high for him. Like a 1st or 2nd round pick at least.Chicago, where else?
Kidding...I'm kid. How much will you take for Thielen?
I think its very unlikely they trade him though.
btw I loved that catch made by Cole Kmet the other day!
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snogger
Footballguy
Tells you about this season.. Vikings stop their losing streak against the Rival Packers and 
.
two losses this year by a combined 2 points, against two playoff bound teams.. Still at a loss to explain the falcons game.
So.. will the team that bet the Packers, and almost beat the Seahawks and Titans show up against Detroit..
or the one that showed up vs. Falcons, Colts and the Packers the first week?
.two losses this year by a combined 2 points, against two playoff bound teams.. Still at a loss to explain the falcons game.
So.. will the team that bet the Packers, and almost beat the Seahawks and Titans show up against Detroit..
or the one that showed up vs. Falcons, Colts and the Packers the first week?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Thats a good question. I heard some folks talking about opening up the doors at the bank so the wind can help again.Tells you about this season.. Vikings stop their losing streak against the Rival Packers and
two losses this year by a combined 2 points, against two playoff bound teams.. Still at a loss to explain the falcons game.
So.. will the team that bet the Packers, and almost beat the Seahawks and Titans show up against Detroit..
or the one that showed up vs. Falcons, Colts and the Packers the first week?
The Vikings won by not counting on Kirk Cousins. No one wants to talk about when the Vikings actually need Kirk Cousins to make some plays to win a game.
I am pretty happy about how the offensive line played against the Packers. They were making some big holes on the right side of the line. Ezra Cleveland looks like he can play. In Kubiaks presser he said Ezra is doing a good job and that the line is starting to get some continuity now. Kubiak says good things about Garrett Bradbury as well.
I am very happy they beat Green Bay. This season is already more successful than last year on that front.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Cronin and Johnson Look Back On The Run-Fueled Win In Green Bay, Discuss Griffen's Response to Zimmer's "Good Player" Comments
This is pretty funny. Griffen feels slighted by Zimmer saying he was "good" instead of great.
This is pretty funny. Griffen feels slighted by Zimmer saying he was "good" instead of great.
snogger
Footballguy
COOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still VERY
about this defense.. So many young players and missing many due to injuries/trade/Covid-Opt out ..
What once looked like an imposing schedule at the beginning of the year, isn't looking as scary now..
@ Bears - Defense is great, but they have no Offense.. Think they get a W
Cowboys - Played tough vs. Steelers.. I think this will be tougher then it looked last week, but think the Vikings get the W to get them back to .500 at 5-5
Panthers - Teddy returns and McCaffery ,, Toss-up
Jags - W
@ Bucs - L
Bears - W
@Saints - L
@Lions - W
So, with my Purple Googles, I have them at 8-8 or 9-7.. Considering how they started the season I'll take that..
With an extra team going to the Playoffs this year, and the Putrid NFC East, 8-8 might just get them into the playoffs.
Still VERY
about this defense.. So many young players and missing many due to injuries/trade/Covid-Opt out ..What once looked like an imposing schedule at the beginning of the year, isn't looking as scary now..
@ Bears - Defense is great, but they have no Offense.. Think they get a W
Cowboys - Played tough vs. Steelers.. I think this will be tougher then it looked last week, but think the Vikings get the W to get them back to .500 at 5-5
Panthers - Teddy returns and McCaffery ,, Toss-up
Jags - W
@ Bucs - L
Bears - W
@Saints - L
@Lions - W
So, with my Purple Googles, I have them at 8-8 or 9-7.. Considering how they started the season I'll take that..
With an extra team going to the Playoffs this year, and the Putrid NFC East, 8-8 might just get them into the playoffs.
Don't forget that the VIkes still have the "just when you think they are turning it around" gut punch left at some point this season. I am predicting that to be the Jags game.COOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still VERY
What once looked like an imposing schedule at the beginning of the year, isn't looking as scary now..
@ Bears - Defense is great, but they have no Offense.. Think they get a W
Cowboys - Played tough vs. Steelers.. I think this will be tougher then it looked last week, but think the Vikings get the W to get them back to .500 at 5-5
Panthers - Teddy returns and McCaffery ,, Toss-up
Jags - W
@ Bucs - L
Bears - W
@Saints - L
@Lions - W
So, with my Purple Googles, I have them at 8-8 or 9-7.. Considering how they started the season I'll take that..
With an extra team going to the Playoffs this year, and the Putrid NFC East, 8-8 might just get them into the playoffs.
snogger
Footballguy
Don't forget that the VIkes still have the "just when you think they are turning it around" gut punch left at some point this season. I am predicting that to be the Jags game.COOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still VERY
What once looked like an imposing schedule at the beginning of the year, isn't looking as scary now..
@ Bears - Defense is great, but they have no Offense.. Think they get a W
Cowboys - Played tough vs. Steelers.. I think this will be tougher then it looked last week, but think the Vikings get the W to get them back to .500 at 5-5
Panthers - Teddy returns and McCaffery ,, Toss-up
Jags - W
@ Bucs - L
Bears - W
@Saints - L
@Lions - W
So, with my Purple Googles, I have them at 8-8 or 9-7.. Considering how they started the season I'll take that..
With an extra team going to the Playoffs this year, and the Putrid NFC East, 8-8 might just get them into the playoffs.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
Don't know how the season will end but I am just enjoying how special Dalvin is!! That quick cut on that pitch was unbelievable!!
Also have to give some credit to the offensive line...he is actually getting some holes!
Also have to give some credit to the offensive line...he is actually getting some holes!
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I am pretty much in one game at a time mode. Not counting any chickens yet. This is the way the Vikings are approaching things which makes sense. When you are trying to achieve a ;long term goal (make it to the playoffs, win in the playoffs) its always good to set several short term goals along the way that can keep you on track of making progress towards your goal.
The game against the Bears is critical I think. If they can actually win this game in Soldier Field they will be 3-1 in the division and make up some ground on the Bears.
The Vikings have struggled playing there for many years now. They did get a win and got that monkey off their back a bit, but the Bears defense is still very good.
Cook has been amazing. I think the Vikings can win every game he plays like this. I think the Bears defense is too good though and the Vikings will actually need Captain Kirk to do something to win this game.
The game against the Bears is critical I think. If they can actually win this game in Soldier Field they will be 3-1 in the division and make up some ground on the Bears.
The Vikings have struggled playing there for many years now. They did get a win and got that monkey off their back a bit, but the Bears defense is still very good.
Cook has been amazing. I think the Vikings can win every game he plays like this. I think the Bears defense is too good though and the Vikings will actually need Captain Kirk to do something to win this game.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Vikings Activate Austin Cutting, Waive Pat Elflein
I was actually feeling good about the prospect of Elf coming back from injury after watching Dru Samia for a couple games.
Hey what do you know tackles can play at guard too.
The blocked punts an issue related to poor snaps is the new thing we have to worry about.
No Irv Smith after listening to how having good blocking TE will help against the Bears 3-4 defense all week.
I hope they can find a way to keep hope alive for this season but I would feel better about it with Irv Smith blocking.
I was actually feeling good about the prospect of Elf coming back from injury after watching Dru Samia for a couple games.
Hey what do you know tackles can play at guard too.
The blocked punts an issue related to poor snaps is the new thing we have to worry about.
No Irv Smith after listening to how having good blocking TE will help against the Bears 3-4 defense all week.
I hope they can find a way to keep hope alive for this season but I would feel better about it with Irv Smith blocking.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Zimmer on Elflein's Release, Loss of Smith Jr. For Monday, and Chicago Changing Their Offensive Play Caller
Zimmer says Eric Kendricks is their back up long snapper should they need one.
Zimmer says Eric Kendricks is their back up long snapper should they need one.
My take on the game as a Bears fan, is that the Vikings would be very wise to take advantage of the mismatches in the passing game. Cook is probably not going to sniff what he did the last 2 weeks(Bears front 7 is light years ahead of GB/Det) but at the same time, the Bears will have zero rushing success against the Vikings. Montgomery(despite his poor stats) is a sizeable loss, as he's been breaking tackles just to get to the LOS. Not sure Nall/Patterson can do that. Bears OL is just awful right now, in every way possible. This is a game Nkagoue would have been a monster in.
I think this is a game that will come down to QB's not making stupid mistakes, and WR's making plays. I'd bet on the Vikings winning, unless Mack and co. just destroy the Vikings OL. Unless they have a D/ST score, I have a hard time seeing the Bears scoring 20+ right now. I'm expecting something like a 20-13 type of game, somewhat similar to the Bears/Titans game a week ago.
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