I kind of see Cousins as a combo of Bradford and Keenum. It's not a strict combo but I think he throws downfield better than Keenum and moves around a lot better than Bradford. So he takes the mobility of Keenum and the arm of Bradford. I know it's a stretch but I think there is some truth to it. I think he would be better than either depending on the price tag.Biabreakable said:
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2022 Minnesota Vikings (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Heatman
- Start date
snellman
Footballguy
I must be in the minority, because I really don't want to see them spend the kind of money that Cousins is going to command. They have a lot of cap space, but they also have a lot of their own players that they are going to need to lock up to long term deals. (Diggs, Barr, Hunter, Kendricks, Waynes just off the top of my head). I would be all for Cousins if they could get him for a team friendly deal that has an out in case he doesn't live up to the billing, just not sure if that is possible at this point.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
From what I am reading Cousins may be asking $30 million per year type of deal.
The salary cap is projected to be 178 million doe 2018. So 30 million would be about 17% of the Vikings total cap space.
While this is high, it is manageable, the QB just has to really be worth it.
Is Cousins? I don't know. Washington does not seem to think so, and they signed a deal with Alex Smith that is about $23 million per year. Significantly cheaper than Cousins will be if he makes $30 per year. What he is though is the best option. Sam Bradford was making $18 million last season. $30 is near twice that, but that is what it looks like the market bears right now. QB being in such demand.
I agree with you about re-signing Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, Waynes. I am not so sure about Barr. It isn't going to be cheap either. Diggs is going to get paid.
Before Bridgewater got injured the Vikings have been spending almost all of their money on defense and going cheap on offense. Look at the WRs 5th round and undrafted. The finally started paying some money to a QB with Bradford, and with that money freed up now it is going to be expensive no matter what. How much is Bradford and Keenum going to get paid for example? Bradford $18 million on his last contract. Is he is a position to argue for more? Less than Alex Smith perhaps?
But what if the difference between Bradford and Cousins is the Vikings have a 5% or more chance to win? Is that worth the extra $10 million and some tough choices elsewhere to make some wiggle room for contract extensions?
BigJim®
Footballguy
There was a PFT story that Cousins wants to play for a contender. I think that rules out the Jets/Browns decisively. I just don't see how Arizona can compete with the Vikings on any level, from contender potential, to coaching, to cap flexibility. How in the world do you cut enough guys to turn $9 mil into an annual $27 mil per season? It's not like we're talking about a one season flex to fit in a front loaded contract. Cutting ties with Fitz doesn't really help their pitch. I just don't buy the Denver is a contender pitch. I mean come on, they are drafting #5 for reasons beyond QB woes. Their defense seemed to be past prime last year, losing 8 games by double digits. Also consider Demaryius Thomas may be a cap casualty with $12MM and $17.3MM salaries locked in if he is not cut or restructured... and there were also reports that Emmanuel Sanders is gone due to attitude issues. That leaves... what at WR for Cousins? I think Denver is more likely to use that #5 on one of the 4 rookies given their many issues. The Vikes just seem like the best option, having the top rated D in 2017, having some nice young talent on both sides of the ball, and making NFC Championship. Seeing what Case was able to do, it's the sort of story I'm buying if I'm Cousins.Biabreakable said:
Now, one question would be what approaching contracts do the Vikes have to worry about using the $50 mil on? Harrison Smith and Rhodes appear to be locked up until '21/'22. I would not worry about Barr.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Maybe your right. I just have no way of knowing how Cousins is viewing things.
I am not even sure if the Vikings have interest in Cousins or what they are willing to spend at QB.
As far as players who will need new contracts soon, Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, Waynes are players the Vikings may want to extend. I am not really thinking about Barr long term. Currently Barr is the 2nd most expensive player on the Vikings.
Looking at this I see some potential cuts that are not even calculated into the Vikings potential cap space.
Sharif Floyd still on the books for about $7 million but it looks like he can be released with no cap hit.
Other expensive players who could free up cap space are Kyle Rudolph, Jarius Wright Latavius Murray.
I think the money is there if needed. The question is do they have the will to pay Cousins that much.
Why do you think they wouldn’t resign if case is franchised? Just because they want to be starters doesn’t mean that will happen. Both coming off injuries and we all know the starter gig isn’t solidified, sam and teddy likely know as well. Franchise case and he is on a one year deal which gives either one of them an opp to potentially win the starter gig after case’s 1 year is up. I suppose they could both decide to go somewhere else but my two cents is that teams are likely worried about the injuries and aren’t gonna go all in on either as a starter next year.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Underwhelming is an understatement. Case was a nice story, but let's not kid ourselves that he's a difference maker in the NFL. He's a relatively safe journeyman, and maybe a top 20 QB in the NFL. Not the type any savvy team would franchise, and not the QB I would want to match 2018 opponents with on a weekly basis facing a division champ schedule. Franchising him can't be justified vs spending the extra $5 MM for Cousins. We're 5 years into the Bridgewater trial, and he can't really be included in any serious comparison to Cousins... a guy who threw for 4900 yards in 2016 and still over 4000 in a down 2017. I don't know how anyone could justify relying on Bradford when he lasted 1 game in 2017 and has zero mobility.snore said:
msommer
Footballguy
Personally I think that is untrue. I think that is influenced by WAS media.
Think about it. Cousins is not getting the tag this year, why? Because getting the tag would carry a 29m+ cost.
I think he'll get a contract somewhere around Carr (not 25/year btw, only 21) and Smith. Maybe 25 per year. It may sound like more ( like Carr's did) but I doubt it will be much more than that. But it all depends on how crazy the bidders are, obviously.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Not nuts. Because teams dont ever let a QB like Cousins get away in the NFL.Biabreakable said:
What is nuts is how the 'Skins handled it.
2017 Washington Redskins 16 16 347 540 64.3 4,093 7.6 27 13 93.9
2016 Washington Redskins 16 16 406 606 67.0 4,917 8.1 25 12 97.2
2015 Washington Redskins 16 16 379 543 69.8 4,166 7.7 29 11 101.6
That kind of production is simply never just a loose free agent without some kind of caveat attached. And he wasn't with the a great team or anything.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I was thinking "strike while the iron is hot" and out of curiosity looked up the origin of the phrase. It is essentially to take make the most of an opportunistic set of facts. Do 4300/27 TD QBs in their prime ever come into open market? No. Are the Vikes typically in a cap position to be competitive? No. Do we have draft position or alternative FAs to equally solve QBOTF while our window of opportunity to contend is open? No. Is the expense of this type of QB logical given the general strength/competitiveness of the team? Yes. That's us, that's now. The Not For Long league just doesn't present these sorts of opportunities for a contending team to solve years of instability and obtain a proven/productive QB in his prime.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Seems reasonable.
I was just going with the numbers being presented in articles I read.
$25 million a year would still be a lot. It is something that Denver and other teams could potentially afford though. Maybe not Arizona.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
If Cleveland or someone else wants to give Washington draft picks or players for Cousins, I don't think the Vikings should do that.
It makes sense for Washington to try to trade Cousins too, considering they gave up a 3rd round pick and a young decent corner for Alex Smith at 34 years old. Getting something back in a trade, maybe an offer already made to them? Could be part of their reasoning in what they gave KC for Smith, if they think they can trade Cousins and get some of that (or more) back.
Whoever the Vikings sign at QB is going to be expensive. I don't think the Vikings should give draft picks for Cousins unless it were something minor.
IF Washington is trading him, then Cousins has to agree to a long term deal with the new team, which might give him so leverage as far as what team he is traded to.
Cousins is poised to become a free agent, so there should be some form of discount on the compensation because of that. If the asking price is too high then teams can just say no and wait for him to become a free agent. The trade would be more to prevent a bidding war and that uncertainty.
As snogger points out the Browns have a lot of draft picks. However if Cousins does not want to go there (Coryell system not west coast, its the Browns) then he may be able to keep that from happening by not being willing to sign a long term contract with the Browns.
I don't really want the Vikings to give draft picks for Cousins, if that is what it takes.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Good article although seems outdate in speculating Washington possibly applying the tag. No way that happens if the Smith trade goes through.
I definitely don't underestimate that such a signing may limit ability to retain players, but when capable/productive QB is on the other side of the balance, I'd say goodbye to at least 2 of them (Barr/Waynes). As for Diggs, if I'm motivated to keep him I don't do it by planning to throw a boatload of cash at him and sandbag the QB position with no future vision. I win games, I solidify QB, I show him the grass isn't greener elsewhere and more money elsewhere comes with significant downsides. Seems to work for other winning organization.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
What if Washington is asking a 2nd round pick though?
I balk at that, but maybe I shouldn't. The Vikings picks are very late this year as well.
BigJim®
Footballguy
2nd round pick for what, a player already tagged @ $34 mil, or a guy we then need to compete in the open market over? I don't pay a 2nd to be in no better position.
Just one last thing on the money piece. *IF* the Vikings were to strike gold at QB through any means (even if it is not Cousins), that guy will be the highest paid position on our roster. I feel like some are looking at this as abnormal. Top QBs get top dollars, and we want a top QB. We're already seeing that to some extent by talking about tagging a guy like Case Keenum at what, $20 Mil? There's also other costs to think about, such as paying a 1st round pick to obtain the likes of Sam Bradford. It's just a reality of the NFL. You don't want to be the teams who avoid that reality (as the Vikings have done in recent years), by not having a QB worthy of those salaries. Everything else you do spending $170 mil to build a team without a bona fide QB is basically pointless.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Yeah I suppose you are right about Washington not being able to trade Kirk Cousins.
Washington won’t be able to trade Kirk Cousins
I guess if Cousins does not sign the franchise tag then he just becomes a free agent.
dhockster
Footballguy
There is no reason for Cousins to help out the Redskins by signing the Franchise Tag and then being traded. Then Cousins has less control of where he goes and it costs his new team resources to trade for him.
I think Minnesota can have Cousins if they want him. Of the teams that would be in the market for Cousins the Vikings are the team closest to being able to win a Super Bowl. Jacksonville is very close too, but they are in the AFC and still have to compete with Belicheck/Brady for a few more years. Also, the Jags will have about 35 million in cap space if they cut Blake Bortles, which is not as good as the Vikings with $50 million. So the Vikings should be number 1 on Cousins list. If so, then he will probably be open to making the contract as cap friendly as possible while still getting paid a significant long term guaranteed contract. My guess is he would sign something like a 5 year deal which basically gives him guaranteed #1 QB money for the first 3 years of the contract. After the 3 years, the contract would probably be structured so that Minnesota can get out of the deal without taking a cap hit if he is underperforming.
I think the $30 million per year number is probably something that Cousins only would have demanded from the Redskins because they have jerked him around contract wise for 3 years. I think he will be fine with $25 million per year guaranteed over 3 years. He bet on himself the last 2 seasons by not signing a long term deal; i think he will make sure this long term deal will give him long term security.
If I am the Vikings, I would sign him in a heartbeat. He performed well this past season despite losing his top 2 receivers and having an offensive line decimated by injuries. Not to mention having Jay Gruden as an offensive coach who tends to hamstring the offense by abandoning the run. He would fit in great with the personnel the Vikings already have on offense and the Vikings have plenty of cap space to absorb his contract and get some other players signed.
Of the 3 QB's that the Vikings had this year, who does not have question marks? Bradford and Bridgewater have health issues. Keenum still hasn't had the opportunity to show he can be a good #1 QB over a prolonged period of time.
So, Vikings, go out and sign Cousins, and the Vikings and Eagles can play in the NFC championship against each other a few more times in the coming seasons!
I think Minnesota can have Cousins if they want him. Of the teams that would be in the market for Cousins the Vikings are the team closest to being able to win a Super Bowl. Jacksonville is very close too, but they are in the AFC and still have to compete with Belicheck/Brady for a few more years. Also, the Jags will have about 35 million in cap space if they cut Blake Bortles, which is not as good as the Vikings with $50 million. So the Vikings should be number 1 on Cousins list. If so, then he will probably be open to making the contract as cap friendly as possible while still getting paid a significant long term guaranteed contract. My guess is he would sign something like a 5 year deal which basically gives him guaranteed #1 QB money for the first 3 years of the contract. After the 3 years, the contract would probably be structured so that Minnesota can get out of the deal without taking a cap hit if he is underperforming.
I think the $30 million per year number is probably something that Cousins only would have demanded from the Redskins because they have jerked him around contract wise for 3 years. I think he will be fine with $25 million per year guaranteed over 3 years. He bet on himself the last 2 seasons by not signing a long term deal; i think he will make sure this long term deal will give him long term security.
If I am the Vikings, I would sign him in a heartbeat. He performed well this past season despite losing his top 2 receivers and having an offensive line decimated by injuries. Not to mention having Jay Gruden as an offensive coach who tends to hamstring the offense by abandoning the run. He would fit in great with the personnel the Vikings already have on offense and the Vikings have plenty of cap space to absorb his contract and get some other players signed.
Of the 3 QB's that the Vikings had this year, who does not have question marks? Bradford and Bridgewater have health issues. Keenum still hasn't had the opportunity to show he can be a good #1 QB over a prolonged period of time.
So, Vikings, go out and sign Cousins, and the Vikings and Eagles can play in the NFC championship against each other a few more times in the coming seasons!
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dhockster
Footballguy
One more thing: Since becoming the starter, Cousins has not missed a game, 48 straight starts. He has mobility but elects to mainly be a pocket passer. I think the more a QB runs, the more he subjects himself to high impact injuries (see Carson Wentz). Cousins seems like one of those Eli Manning types who never get hurt.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I really think that Sloter has a role in the future of this team somewhere. I honestly don't know that much about him but you don't keep 4 QBs on a 53 man roster for fun. If they didn't think he had some kind of potential, they would have released him in hopes of getting him back on the PS.
I'm interested in seeing what they do. If they don't break the bank to get Cousins, then they REALLY like Sloter - not for next year but long term. If they go with Teddy, then I think they open the competition after next year.
Should make for an interesting offseason.
I'm interested in seeing what they do. If they don't break the bank to get Cousins, then they REALLY like Sloter - not for next year but long term. If they go with Teddy, then I think they open the competition after next year.
Should make for an interesting offseason.
People love potential.
Keenum’s a good QB. I’d just stick with him and keep the rest of the roster. Cook’s coming back next year. Could maybe keep Bridgewater as insurance.
Heatman
Footballguy
I read Teddys contract could be tolled.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/2/1/16960196/spielman-tolling-teddy-bridgewaters-contract-nfl-decision
If this happens and they get to keep Teddy at around 2 million I see them moving on from Bradford, resigning Case and rolling with Case, Teddy and Sloter. I don't believe the Vikings view Cousins as an enormous upgrade over Teddy or Case. At least not enough to break the bank for him. They also view Teddy as the future and have a lot of faith in him returning and progressing to elite or near elite status as a QB.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/2/1/16960196/spielman-tolling-teddy-bridgewaters-contract-nfl-decision
If this happens and they get to keep Teddy at around 2 million I see them moving on from Bradford, resigning Case and rolling with Case, Teddy and Sloter. I don't believe the Vikings view Cousins as an enormous upgrade over Teddy or Case. At least not enough to break the bank for him. They also view Teddy as the future and have a lot of faith in him returning and progressing to elite or near elite status as a QB.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Yep we've been talking about this for a while, and personally I think Teddy's going to be free. There's ambiguous language in the CBA but the intent is pretty clear, and the part the Vikings will lean on in pretty flaky.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I listened to Ricks Comments as the interview is posted on Vikings.com Chris Gates should be more resourceful. The reliance on twitter is making journalists lazy.
What Spielman says is that it is up to the NFLPA if Bridgewaters contract tolls or not. If it tolls the Vikings should have again have the opportunity to use the 5th year option on him. Otherwise he is a free agent.
The 5th year option is not cheap and I kind of doubt they would use it anyways at this point. It is up to the NFL PA if the Vikings have this option or not.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
In my opinion it would not be a good look for the Vikings to be viewed as the franchise that tries to take advantage of ambiguity to screw over players. That is not the rep one would want when pursuing free agents, IMO. Better to be the franchise that stood by your players through injury and treated them right.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Which is basically what the team has done the entire time.They have always supported Bridgewaters recovery and shown their appreciation and interest in him which is genuine.
Its just speculation about the rules or options being clear to the media and fans. I kind of doubt the Vikings wanted to pay Bridgewater the price of the 5th year option at this point anyways. If he had come back and played great last season, then maybe that would be another story. They did get to watch him practice. The prognosis for full recovery seems to be better after two years based on something Zimmer recently said I think. They seem very interested in keeping Teddy.
Gopher State
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Which is why this speculation strikes me as stupid and counterproductive. They have handled this correctly. Imagine following the advice of those who would have them step in a pile this late down the path.
snogger
Footballguy
It isn't the Vikings.. The NFLPA is in full control of this decision. If the NFL rules he is to be "tolled" I'd expect the Vikings would either pay him his 5th year, release him or sign him to a new contract. Can't imagine any scenario where they tell Teddy.. Enjoy the 2 milion, we will talk later
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
No denying Moss's talent. Quite an achievement.
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
The Cousins rumors sound like the typical free agent pipe dream ie get the highest rated player regardless of the cap implications. I doubt there is any real basis for the rumor.
It much too early when we don't have an offensive coordinator. Spielman is saying that the new coordinator will have a major say in the next QB.
It much too early when we don't have an offensive coordinator. Spielman is saying that the new coordinator will have a major say in the next QB.
snogger
Footballguy
Of course the Patriots D isn't even close to the level of the Vikings D, but still....
Watching Foles and the Eagles put up 500+ yards vs. the Patriots in the Super Bowl helps alleviate some of my concerns regarding the Vikings Defense in the Championship game. They just seem to have figured out how to best use Foles talents, good for them..
Watching Foles and the Eagles put up 500+ yards vs. the Patriots in the Super Bowl helps alleviate some of my concerns regarding the Vikings Defense in the Championship game. They just seem to have figured out how to best use Foles talents, good for them..
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I'd say odds are pretty good that the Vikings face the Eagles the first game next season...
skol asylum
Footballguy
The Vikings have fewer Superbowl losses than the Patriots now. 
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dhockster
Footballguy
Of all the contenders who need a QB the Vikings have the most available cap space ($50 million). Cousins is rumored to have Minnesota at the top of his list, which makes sense considering the make-up of the team and the fact he is from that region of the country (Michigan). Do you not think that Cousins would be the best fit in Minnesota over the any of the 3 guys who were on the team this year? To me, Cousins to the Vikings seems like a no brainer for both parties. What am I missing? They will still have cap room to sign/extend existing players, even if Cousins signs with them.
Ben & Jerry's
Footballguy
If the Vikes can sign DeFilippo to be their OC, might we see a play to acquire Foles ?
Seems really plausible to me.
Seems really plausible to me.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I hope to god not. It's not that I'm unimpressed with Foles at all. In fact, he seems like a good QB who is better than any options and maybe even on par with Cousins. However, knowing he'll want $ as a SB MVP, why in the world would we trade draft picks to get him rather than keeping the picks and paying Cousins in a similar financial deal? Philly won't trade Foles with Wentz still recovering, unless they are blown away by an offer. I'll take the good QB who doesn't come with those added costs.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Me, I think the Vikings should roll with Bridgewater, Tyrod Taylor as a backup, and Kyle Sloter and use all of their cap space and draft choices on big bodies, offense and defense. If they want to take BPA if that is a corner, that would be good too. Expending resources to improve, maybe, just a bit incrementally at Q.B. will not improve their stock. Becoming a bully running the ball with Cook and protecting Bridgewater, and becoming a rotational bully on defense with another wave coming at teams every set of downs. That can be their ticket until they find their golden ticket at Q.B. You wait for your golden ticket, you do not try to force it. They need to spend their capital where it will have the most effect. They were close this year, improve, do not drain resources to more or less sustain with only a bit of incremental improvement. Cousins is good, he is not elite. Why spend their wad going from sort of good, with other potential for good, to good at Q.B. when they can move from average to good at o-line and to devastating on d-line.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
While I do expect the team to try to re-sign Teddy Bridgewater, they cannot rely on him as their starter for next season. Due to him not playing much for two seasons. Only the Vikings know how good he looked in practice. They dressed Sam Bradford over Teddy in the playoffs is the main bit of information I have in reference to what they thought of how Teddy was practicing, not better than Sam Bradford.
Kirk Cousins is the best free agent QB available. I don't think he is just slightly better than Bradford or Keenum, I think he is significantly better than the other options, sure throw Foles into that conversation as well. I don't think any of them have played as well as Cousins.
As far as the Vikings saving money at the QB position to spend elsewhere?
The free agent market for defensive tackles and offensive linemen does not look very good. Not as good as last season and over spending on these players with money saved at QB does not make the team better in my opinion. I would rather they overspend on Cousins.
The draft looks a bit better than free agency as far as trying to find help at offensive line or defensive tackle.
The Vikings have been a playoff caliber team without a good starting QB the last 3 years. We already know the team can have a lot of success without a good QB, but not quite good enough to go all the way. I for one would like to see what improved QB play of Cousins can do for the Vikings bottom line. I think he would help more than the free agent defensive tackles and guards available in free agency.
Kirk Cousins is the best free agent QB available. I don't think he is just slightly better than Bradford or Keenum, I think he is significantly better than the other options, sure throw Foles into that conversation as well. I don't think any of them have played as well as Cousins.
As far as the Vikings saving money at the QB position to spend elsewhere?
The free agent market for defensive tackles and offensive linemen does not look very good. Not as good as last season and over spending on these players with money saved at QB does not make the team better in my opinion. I would rather they overspend on Cousins.
The draft looks a bit better than free agency as far as trying to find help at offensive line or defensive tackle.
The Vikings have been a playoff caliber team without a good starting QB the last 3 years. We already know the team can have a lot of success without a good QB, but not quite good enough to go all the way. I for one would like to see what improved QB play of Cousins can do for the Vikings bottom line. I think he would help more than the free agent defensive tackles and guards available in free agency.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Possibly my best source yet, I have it on good word from a guy who is very close with the GM that it sounds like the Vikings are not going to pursue Cousins. Take it for what it's worth. Found this out today from someone at the super bowl who knows Spielman personally. I was quite surprised. I thought the Vikings would go for it. They'd be immediate NFC favorites... even Super Bowl favorites in my mind.
Who knows how honest Spielman will be with this guy, especially franchise secrets/plans. But, he sounded from what he head the Vikings were not interested in spending for Cousins.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
I get the feeling I'm going to agree to disagree with a lot of Viking fans this offseason. I'll just ask this... if you are talking about Bridgewater, what exactly have you seen to think he's "maybe, just a bit incrementally" just below Cousins... a guy who has thrown for 4900 yards?
