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RB Chris Carson, SEA - 10.7.21 - Neck Issue (1 Viewer)

Stompin' Tom Connors said:
Please. 

Carson was a top 10 back last year (7th in rushing), just shy of 250 carries with over 1100 yards and 9 TDs.

Top 10 back this year in rushing yards coming into this game and adds another century to it.

He's proved himself.

Coming into this season, he didn't have a fumble problem. He did in the last few games but got the full load of 22 carries (only other back with a carry was Prosise who had 3) with rock solid security.

Clearly regained the team's trust and earned it with this performance.

Burden on proof is not on him, it's on you if you don't think he's a stud.
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There's a reason he was a 4th round RB pick in a draft this year, I get it, I took him with confidence. However, fumbling eliminates all past achievements especially if there's a competent back (Penny) potentially in the fold. Despite the coach speak, if he were to fumble again he may not see the field. His fumble was the difference in the game against NO. There's reason to be concerned and to put on the blinders is not in your FF team's best interest. I'm rooting for him to get it together but to say he's proved himself without question is a reach. 

 
Looked good to me today.  Like the guy from last year.  I was on and off watching as RAMS were in a dog fight, but looked like the dude was really focused on protecting the ball.

Feeling much better.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Was listening to the radio - they said it was a ticky tacky hold. That whole series was maddening as hell. I had Carson & Lockett. 

TD nullified, Carson then runs for -4 on the next two plays combined, and Prosise gets a 9 yard RuTD on the next play. :doh:  
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It was holding.  Carson wouldn’t have scored without it.

 
joffer said:
It was holding.  Carson wouldn’t have scored without it.
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Correct, it was clear holding and definitely aided Carson by slowing up a defender in his path as he tried to stretch laterally to the outside.

I say he still would have scored there, or would have scored if he was in on that play instead of Prosise.

 
Futz said:
There's a reason he was a 4th round RB pick in a draft this year, I get it, I took him with confidence. However, fumbling eliminates all past achievements especially if there's a competent back (Penny) potentially in the fold. Despite the coach speak, if he were to fumble again he may not see the field. His fumble was the difference in the game against NO. There's reason to be concerned and to put on the blinders is not in your FF team's best interest. I'm rooting for him to get it together but to say he's proved himself without question is a reach. 
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Fumbling does not eliminate all past achievements, that's ludicrous. More so given that fumbling has never been a problem Carson has had.

Is there a competent back in the fold behind him? Certainly - there are two, actually. But neither have run anywhere near to Carson's level yet or put Carson in jeopardy of losing his starting spot based on what they've shown. I'm not saying it's impossible, but to this point neither Prosise or Penny (even looking better than he did last year) has performed anywhere near to the level Carson has, with anywhere near the same consistency.

If Carson keeps fumbling, of course the team rethinks it's approach. Stupid not to, you want to win, period. 

That's not the point here. Here is what you said:

Studs are complete backs that you can absolutely count on. One game in a row doesn't make it that.
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Carson has shown he can absolutely be counted on in this game. Carroll gave him almost every carry in the game.

And Carson put up impressive numbers all last season and been pretty damned dependable in all aspects of the game this year. 

It hasn't been one game where he's proved it  -- Top 10 back last year, Top 10 back this year so far.

To use you own point, one or two games with a fumble -- especially where that's never been a prior concern -- doesn't change his proven ability, performance, and the stats he's put up.

Stud. Period.

 
Chris Carson rushed 22 times for 104 yards, tacking on four catches for 41 yards in Seattle's Week 4 divisional win over the Cardinals.

Coach Pete Carroll said we'd "see absolute support" for Carson following the back's fourth fumble and that's exactly what happened as Seattle rode him for 26 touches and 145 total yards. Carson was a true star on Sunday, constantly pin-balling in between tackles and plowing through multiple defenders on what seemed like every touch. C.J. Prosise (3/4/1) vultured Seattle's final touchdown inside the 10 but only got a total of three touches on the day. Time will tell what happens when Rashaad Penny (hamstring) returns, but Carson's first 100-yard performance on the season couldn't have come at a better time. He'll be an RB2 in Los Angeles' short turnaround against the Rams on Thursday.

Sep 29, 2019, 7:02 PM ET
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Stompin' Tom Connors said:
Fumbling does not eliminate all past achievements, that's ludicrous. More so given that fumbling has never been a problem Carson has had.

Is there a competent back in the fold behind him? Certainly - there are two, actually. But neither have run anywhere near to Carson's level yet or put Carson in jeopardy of losing his starting spot based on what they've shown. I'm not saying it's impossible, but to this point neither Prosise or Penny (even looking better than he did last year) has performed anywhere near to the level Carson has, with anywhere near the same consistency.

If Carson keeps fumbling, of course the team rethinks it's approach. Stupid not to, you want to win, period. 

That's not the point here. Here is what you said:

Carson has shown he can absolutely be counted on in this game. Carroll gave him almost every carry in the game.

And Carson put up impressive numbers all last season and been pretty damned dependable in all aspects of the game this year. 

It hasn't been one game where he's proved it  -- Top 10 back last year, Top 10 back this year so far.

To use you own point, one or two games with a fumble -- especially where that's never been a prior concern -- doesn't change his proven ability, performance, and the stats he's put up.

Stud. Period.
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Look your man crush is pretty evident so I will digress. He's has one very good year of NFL production and three straight games to open the season with a fumble. Forgive me for not anointing him the second coming of Shaun Alexander yet. 🙄

It was a positive step in the right direction but there's still blood in the water and the shark like opposing defenses will be intently circling for awhile. We are not out of the woods by any stretch.

 
Sold all my shares concerned that he would lose the job by week 6, but he looks to have a solid hold on it for now. 

Sold for N'Keal Harry in one league (tough market but I will take it). probably a low sell but I'm still not convinced for 2020 and beyond 

 
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Futz said:
Look your man crush is pretty evident so I will digress. He's has one very good year of NFL production and three straight games to open the season with a fumble. Forgive me for not anointing him the second coming of Shaun Alexander yet. 🙄

It was a positive step in the right direction but there's still blood in the water and the shark like opposing defenses will be intently circling for awhile. We are not out of the woods by any stretch.
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Did you sit him this week because of your quivering fears that he'll fumble or that his job is in imminent jeopardy?

Will you be sitting him next week against the Rams D who let Chubb go 96 yards, CMC go 128/2, and Ronald Johnson, of all backs, rack up 70 against them?

If not, why?

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
Did you sit him this week because of your quivering fears that he'll fumble or that his job is in imminent jeopardy?

Will you be sitting him next week against the Rams D who let Chubb go 96 yards, CMC go 128/2, and Ronald Johnson, of all backs, rack up 70 against them?

If not, why?
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I think the point you are dodging like the plague here is that no player in the league is unbenchable in the real NFL. If you turn the ball over too frequently, coaches have no choice. It's an accountability thing to the locker room along with that pesky need to win football games. It doesn't matter how well you play otherwise. Nothing will make you lose a game faster in the NFL than turnovers.

If you are a good player, you are going to get a much longer leash, especially early in the season to correct it. However, when it starts getting to crunch time the margin for error slims quite a bit.

I benched Carson for what I deemed to be a suitable replacement who had a great matchup as well in Gallman. It worked out. I was the fave in my matchup and simply couldn't risk a zero with Carson. He did what I hoped he'd do.

Now Carson may find his way back into my flex this week but I need to see him group a few weeks of fumblefree football together to return him to set it and forget it status again. If you don't have good options on the bench, then I guess it makes perfect sense to keep rolling him out without a care in the world. Have at it. To each their own.

You are insinuating that I'm playing scared. I'm playing it smart by mitigating risk until I feel that risk has subsided enough.

 
Futz said:
Look your man crush is pretty evident so I will digress. He's has one very good year of NFL production and three straight games to open the season with a fumble. Forgive me for not anointing him the second coming of Shaun Alexander yet. 🙄

It was a positive step in the right direction but there's still blood in the water and the shark like opposing defenses will be intently circling for awhile. We are not out of the woods by any stretch.
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Has anyone here annointed him the next Alexander? 

I agree, no RB is immune to being benched, but Carson has significant value even if it goes Rbbc, and I think we saw with Procise what a split would look like with Penny. But I think Carson still holds significant value. Carson will lose a series to another RB, its inevitable, but the volume he will get negates it. We see this with the NE RBs. They have several whom are uniquely valuable based on their volumes. 

Fumbles arent a major longstanding issue for Carson. He put the ball on the ground 3 times so far, which is a lot, and sure he is on some thinner ice because of it, but he also gives them their best chance to win. Unless Penny unseats him from a talent standpoint, which is possible. I would try to buy Penny if his price wasnt so obnoxious 

I sold Carson because it was apparent that a top 10 season was unlikely- mostly due to Penny not Carson- but he had a top 10 price yet. Long term I dont like Carson to keep the job, but for 2019 I think he is the top scoring back in one of the highest running offenses in the NFL. 

 
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Count me as a big believer in Carson.  Yes, the fumbles weeks 1-3 was cause for concern and it’s certainly something that can’t continue.  So just because he didn’t cough it up this week...just means he’s kept the wolves at bay on this aspect of his game.

But I think people continue to underestimate how good a player he’s turned into and for whatever reason feel it’s only a matter of time before he’s usurped by Penny; almost as if he’s getting the Peyton Barber treatment.   But he’s become a useful receiver out of the backfield, is physical in pass protection and with the ball in his hand.

He’s a tough sell because of widespread perception...but his steadiness likely leads to an eventual RB10-12 standing by seasons end.  What’s not to like?

 
TheDirtyWord said:
Count me as a big believer in Carson.  Yes, the fumbles weeks 1-3 was cause for concern and it’s certainly something that can’t continue.  So just because he didn’t cough it up this week...just means he’s kept the wolves at bay on this aspect of his game.

But I think people continue to underestimate how good a player he’s turned into and for whatever reason feel it’s only a matter of time before he’s usurped by Penny; almost as if he’s getting the Peyton Barber treatment.   But he’s become a useful receiver out of the backfield, is physical in pass protection and with the ball in his hand.

He’s a tough sell because of widespread perception...but his steadiness likely leads to an eventual RB10-12 standing by seasons end.  What’s not to like?
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I think you're underestimating Penny just as you accuse others of underestimating Carson (Peyton Barber comparison)

Carson is an excellent RB. Three concerns from me on him, which lead to me selling for a kings ransom while I could:

1. Fumbles. Not a concern a month ago but now it is. He looked good this week. Step 1 complete for keeping the job

2. Durability. He hasnt been the most durable in general.

3. Penny. Penny looks a lot better this year in game action. A lot better. He also has draft pedigree. I think the team wants Penny to take over at some point. Maybe not 2019 but maybe 2020. 

I had Carson as a huge bargain this year, a potential top 5 RB. At this point I think it's safe to admit being wrong on that

10-12 is a more realistic expectation if he keeps the job. I would love him as a rb2 in redraft. 

 
I have owned him and started him all four weeks.  Was very encouraged by his game yesterday since he should have had the TD as well.  They gave him a ton of touches and re-involved him in the passing game.

So far he has done well against inferior defenses (Cincy and Arizona) and struggled against better defenses (Pitt, NO). 

At this point, I consider him a matchup dependent player so long as he doesn't continue fumbling - which in that case Penny becomes a serious threat to keep Carson on the bench or significantly limit his touches.

 
Dr. Dan said:
Has anyone here annointed him the next Alexander? 
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Stompin was calling him a stud. "Stud period." were his words. When I think studs, I think absolute no doubt start guys regardless of matchup who aren't about to get benched or usurped due to a sudden fumbling problem. Alexander was just a reference to such a player with an intentional Seattle tie. No comparison was ever made.

 
Futz said:
When I think studs, I think absolute no doubt start guys regardless of matchup who aren't about to get benched or usurped due to a sudden fumbling problem. 
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I would agree. I wouldnt call Carson a stud. Hes a high RB2 with RB1 upside for sure. Because of injuries he probably finishes around rb 10

 
Dr. Dan said:
I think you're underestimating Penny just as you accuse others of underestimating Carson (Peyton Barber comparison)
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To be fair...Carson has ALOT more track record considering Penny has but 220 professional offensive snaps.  Ultimately, Carson has shown what he can do when given the mantle of bellcow, and it’s pretty impressive.  As for Penny...I still feel like he’s mostly a projection largely based on draft status.  At this stage, I’d rather have Ronald Jones.

 
Futz said:
I think the point you are dodging like the plague here is that no player in the league is unbenchable in the real NFL. If you turn the ball over too frequently, coaches have no choice. It's an accountability thing to the locker room along with that pesky need to win football games. It doesn't matter how well you play otherwise. Nothing will make you lose a game faster in the NFL than turnovers.

If you are a good player, you are going to get a much longer leash, especially early in the season to correct it. However, when it starts getting to crunch time the margin for error slims quite a bit.

I benched Carson for what I deemed to be a suitable replacement who had a great matchup as well in Gallman. It worked out. I was the fave in my matchup and simply couldn't risk a zero with Carson. He did what I hoped he'd do.

Now Carson may find his way back into my flex this week but I need to see him group a few weeks of fumblefree football together to return him to set it and forget it status again. If you don't have good options on the bench, then I guess it makes perfect sense to keep rolling him out without a care in the world. Have at it. To each their own.

You are insinuating that I'm playing scared. I'm playing it smart by mitigating risk until I feel that risk has subsided enough.
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The point here has nothing to do with a player being unbenchable, or that a player who has fumbled more than usual can or can't be benched.

No one made that point (least of all me) or is defending either side of this argument except for you.

The point was about whether Carson is a stud or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, surely -- I just think yours is wrong. For the following reasons:

  1. Once again, from a purely factual, data-driven, objective and non-emotional standpoint: Carson is a Top 10 back last year, and a Top 10 back last year. A top 10 back in this league is, to me, a stud. Whether for fantasy or real NFL purposes, if you have a Top 10 back on your squad, you're thrilled. Where are you drawing that line? If your bar is higher -- top 3? 5? -- I'd argue that that is elite level, quite different from just being a stud.
  2. Using your definition of a stud, studs are complete backs that you can absolutely count on. Carson shook us all a little with fumbles, but your pendulum swung way too far IMO to discounting everything he's done prior, during, and in the game afterwards. I think we all voiced that the fumbles are a huge concern, in and of themselves, and with a guy like Penny in the wings. But discounting what Carson brings to the table -- before, during, and this past week -- seems completely irrational. Especially given that this has never been a concern with his game before.
  3. Extending your definition, a stud back to me is also one who can be counted on to excel in all parts of the game -- running, catching, blocking, etc. And Carson does all three very well. Fournette and CMC are studs for the same reason, they can do it all, and contribute doing all to help the team win.
If you want to continue benching him because he needs to show you multiple games without fumbling, good on ya.

Me, I am not leaving Top 10 points on my bench. Carson a guy who is the centerpiece of this offense. On a run-first team. And has proven himself without a doubt to be a valuable commodity. 

This does not preclude the situation from changing if fumbling issues reoccur. But nothing at this point in time would make me think of benching this kind of commodity which is kinda rare in the NFL and fantasy.

 
Futz said:
Stompin was calling him a stud. "Stud period." were his words. When I think studs, I think absolute no doubt start guys regardless of matchup who aren't about to get benched or usurped due to a sudden fumbling problem. Alexander was just a reference to such a player with an intentional Seattle tie. No comparison was ever made.
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Nitpicking over the definition of a word has got to be my least favorite type of post.

 
TheDirtyWord said:
To be fair...Carson has ALOT more track record considering Penny has but 220 professional offensive snaps.  Ultimately, Carson has shown what he can do when given the mantle of bellcow, and it’s pretty impressive.  As for Penny...I still feel like he’s mostly a projection largely based on draft status.  At this stage, I’d rather have Ronald Jones.
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I really dislike Penny, but seeing him this year... he looks a lot better. Carson looks great and should be the starter, but if Penny keeps improving I would bank on him making this murky in 2020. 

I was a big Penny seller this year, getting what I could for him on my orphan team that had him. Jones has a better path toward being a starter, so maybe that's a better player to have. I dont particularly like Jones either. I'd probably sell both for draft pick/s! 

 
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Joe Fann @Joe_Fann

Chris Carson was an absolute monster yesterday. 21 broken tackles is ridiculous.
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Corey March @corey_march1

Chris Carson got charted with 21(!!) missed/broken tackles yesterday.

18 rush / 3 rec

Most we’ve recorded in a game at @SportsInfo_SIS. I watched them all and the number was legit.
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Short week after a heavy workload... any concerns that Penny (assuming availability) takes a chunk of the work off of Carson vs Rams?

 
Dizzy said:
Short week after a heavy workload... any concerns that Penny (assuming availability) takes a chunk of the work off of Carson vs Rams?
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I believe so, yes.  It seemed to me like he was probably ok to go Sunday (or close enough, but this is conjecture) but they held him out on purpose.  I have a feeling Penny is going to be at least 50% on Thursday.  I'm still going to roll out Carson but I'm expecting RB3 numbers personally.  Again, not justified and more of a gut instinct.

 
Penny could see an increased share -- will be definitely interesting to see his usage in this game.

I'm still not sitting Carson - this Ram D can be fierce, but they have been gashed by the run game -- which runs to both Carson and the team's strength and preferred game script.

 
travdogg said:
We may not know Conner's status by Thursday. It sounds like he's got some kind of ankle injury, according to Mike Tomlin.
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Just saw that.  Could put in for Samuels but I'm just not buying him at the moment plus my bench is short. And I certainly don't want both halves of a timeshare.

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
Penny could see an increased share -- will be definitely interesting to see his usage in this game.

I'm still not sitting Carson - this Ram D can be fierce, but they have been gashed by the run game -- which runs to both Carson and the team's strength and preferred game script.
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I'd be surprised if Penny saw 10 touches. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure he even works ahead of Prosise. Hamstrings are tricky. 

Carson had 21 broken tackles last week(most by any RB since they started keeping the stat) while some of that is on the Cardinals defense, Carson is a beast. 

I hope people got him during his buy-low window. 

 
travdogg said:
I'd be surprised if Penny saw 10 touches. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure he even works ahead of Prosise. Hamstrings are tricky. 

Carson had 21 broken tackles last week(most by any RB since they started keeping the stat) while some of that is on the Cardinals defense, Carson is a beast. 

I hope people got him during his buy-low window. 
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I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence.

If Penny is fully healed, he'll get between 5-10 touches a game in passing or COP/spelling downs. That's how they used him all last year as Carson was putting up Top 10 numbers, and I assume that's how they would continue to use him.

That said, could see that if Carroll was really keen on kicking the tires on Penny this year, he won't rush him back as, to your point, hammys are tricky and easily re-aggravated.

And he doesn't need to rush him back with Carson continuing to deliver, and Prosise filling that COP role ably at the moment.  

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence.

If Penny is fully healed, he'll get between 5-10 touches a game in passing or COP/spelling downs. That's how they used him all last year as Carson was putting up Top 10 numbers, and I assume that's how they would continue to use him.

That said, could see that if Carroll was really keen on kicking the tires on Penny this year, he won't rush him back as, to your point, hammys are tricky and easily re-aggravated.

And he doesn't need to rush him back with Carson continuing to deliver, and Prosise filling that COP role ably at the moment.  
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For this week, is anyone else thinking they give Carson a rest after 26 carries Sunday afternoon and roll with Penny versus a defense he has had success against?

Do heavily used backs continue to be heavily used on the extremely short week?

 
Jercules said:
For this week, is anyone else thinking they give Carson a rest after 26 carries Sunday afternoon and roll with Penny versus a defense he has had success against?

Do heavily used backs continue to be heavily used on the extremely short week?
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Just for the record, Carson was "FULL" on yesterday's practice report. Usually they'll be limited... Rashad Jennings a few years ago was a great example of a back who got an extrenely heavy workload (30 touches vs. Washington on MNF!) and then babied on a short week.

 
Jercules said:
For this week, is anyone else thinking they give Carson a rest after 26 carries Sunday afternoon and roll with Penny versus a defense he has had success against?

Do heavily used backs continue to be heavily used on the extremely short week?
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I'd be shocked.  This is the Seahawks mini Super Bowl.  They want to smash the Rams in to submission and take back hold of the division. 

 
C-Bound said:
I'd be shocked.  This is the Seahawks mini Super Bowl.  They want to smash the Rams in to submission and take back hold of the division. 
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I agree with this. This is Seattle's chance to make a huge statement to the rest of the divison, and the rest of the NFC.

 
C-Bound said:
I'd be shocked.  This is the Seahawks mini Super Bowl.  They want to smash the Rams in to submission and take back hold of the division. 
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I second this. I guess I could see it if the Hawks were playing a relatively weaker team and thought there was less risk -- to Penny and the team -- to roll Penny out.

But not at home against a division rival with the same record where they are both trying to catch/pass the 9ers atop the NFCW.

Not only is it a statement game, outcome could also be absolutely crucial come deciding who gets into the playoffs. First criteria in determining ties is H2H record.

 
27/118 rush; 1/5/1 receiving. 

Centerpiece of the game and arguably the offense.

Penny was 6/18, 2/31 and only brought in to run on two series when Carson was gassed. Used on a swing pass or two on passing downs, had one nice catch down the right sideline for a big gain. But not a factor whatsoever in terms of Carroll “working Penny in” or being a “threat to Carson’s touches.”

If we’re looking hard for flaws, Carson isn’t really part of the pass game - seems to run a route to the flat and simply fade out of the play, but these seemed designed to take a linebacker or safety out of the middle or to the other side of the field from where the play was going. He also bobbled his TD catch and nearly dropped it. But you know what? He didn’t. Reeled in the winning score.

Hawks are 4-1 leaning heavily on Carson. That’s their standard run-first game plan, and it’s run through Carson. 

Stud with a capital S.

 
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