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Wasting a lottery pick (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter petekrum
- Start date
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
don't worry, Trump will fix this.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
McBuckets down?
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Tom Gugliotta was pretty good.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
What is he's half white?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Frank Kamisky, Gordon Hayward, Porzingis, Saric, Rubio all say hi.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Porzingis, Saric and Rubio went to college in the US?
Kaminsky can say Hi on twitter well, but thus far is nothing to write home about.
Hayward is obviously correct.
A. Kaminsky stinks out loud.
B. Porzingis, Saric, Rubio were not Amercan college players. I have no problem taking white foreign players.
C. Heyward while solid will never be better than the third best player on a championship caliber team. He also wasn't a lottery pick.
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Frostillicus
Footballguy
Kevin Love?
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Jimmer Fredette?
Love is the one true outlier, but even at that he never got the Timberwolves anywhere near the playoffs, and is nothing better than the third best player on a good team.
rodg12
Footballguy
You are correct, and he is a good player, but will never be more than the third best player on a championship caliber team.
rodg12
Footballguy
Let's go from 2002 like you said. End with 2012 since not a single lottery pick from 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 has made an All Star team or All NBA team.
List of white college lottery picks from that timeframe...
Mike Dunleavy
Kirk Hinrich
Nick Collison
Chris Kaman (All Star)
Luke Jackson*
Andrew Bogut (All NBA)
Adam Morrison*
J.J. Redick
Spencer Hawes
Kevin Love (All Star and All NBA)
Tyler Hansbrough*
Gordon Hayward (All Star, very possible All NBA this year)
Cole Aldrich
Enes Kanter
Jimmer Fredette*
Meyers Leonard
That's 16 guys. 4 of them are All Stars/All NBA. Meaning a 25% hit rate. You think the other lottery picks are better than that?!
You're wrong and your argument is wrong.
White college lottery picks since 1995
1995 Bryant Reeves, Cherokee Parks
1996 Todd Fuller, Vitaly Potapenko
1997 Keith Van Horn, Austin Croshere
1998 Raef Lafrentz, Jason Williams, Mike Doleac
1999 Wally Szczerbiak, A. Radojevic
2000 Mike Miller, Chris Mihm, Joel Przybilla
2001
2002 Mike Dunleavy
2003 Chris Kamen, Kirt Hinrich, Nick Collison
2004 Luke Jackson
2005 Andrew Bogut
2006 Adam Morrison, JJ Redick
2007 Spencer Hawes
2008 Kevin Love, Joe Alexander
2009 Tyler Hansbrough
2010 Gordon Heyward, Cole Aldrich
2011 Jimmer Fredette
2012
2013 Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Steven Adams, Kelley Olynyk
2014 Nik Stauskas, Doug McDermott
2015 Frank Kaminsky
Of these lottery picks chosen in the last 21 years there are three all NBA 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team appearances,..Love was second team all NBA twice, and Bogut was third team all NBA once. It's also not just that almost all of these players don't become stars, but the majority are unmitigated busts. If you are picking in the lottery and you want a shot at a transcendent player you had better completely ignore white college players.
1995 Bryant Reeves, Cherokee Parks
1996 Todd Fuller, Vitaly Potapenko
1997 Keith Van Horn, Austin Croshere
1998 Raef Lafrentz, Jason Williams, Mike Doleac
1999 Wally Szczerbiak, A. Radojevic
2000 Mike Miller, Chris Mihm, Joel Przybilla
2001
2002 Mike Dunleavy
2003 Chris Kamen, Kirt Hinrich, Nick Collison
2004 Luke Jackson
2005 Andrew Bogut
2006 Adam Morrison, JJ Redick
2007 Spencer Hawes
2008 Kevin Love, Joe Alexander
2009 Tyler Hansbrough
2010 Gordon Heyward, Cole Aldrich
2011 Jimmer Fredette
2012
2013 Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Steven Adams, Kelley Olynyk
2014 Nik Stauskas, Doug McDermott
2015 Frank Kaminsky
Of these lottery picks chosen in the last 21 years there are three all NBA 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team appearances,..Love was second team all NBA twice, and Bogut was third team all NBA once. It's also not just that almost all of these players don't become stars, but the majority are unmitigated busts. If you are picking in the lottery and you want a shot at a transcendent player you had better completely ignore white college players.
Please, Bogut and Kaman are the definition of journeymanLet's go from 2002 like you said. End with 2012 since not a single lottery pick from 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 has made an All Star team or All NBA team.
List of white college lottery picks from that timeframe...
Mike Dunleavy
Kirk Hinrich
Nick Collison
Chris Kaman (All Star)
Luke Jackson*
Andrew Bogut (All NBA)
Adam Morrison*
J.J. Redick
Spencer Hawes
Kevin Love (All Star and All NBA)
Tyler Hansbrough*
Gordon Hayward (All Star, very possible All NBA this year)
Cole Aldrich
Enes Kanter
Jimmer Fredette*
Meyers Leonard
That's 16 guys. 4 of them are All Stars/All NBA. Meaning a 25% hit rate. You think the other lottery picks are better than that?!
You're wrong and your argument is wrong.
rodg12
Footballguy
You laid down the criteria.
Be gone, dude.I think you lack the ability to properly grasp how much of a crapshoot ANY lottery pick is. And also some weird bias against white college players.
Look around the league at the contenders. How many have a white college player as their best or second best player. It's a different NBA than it was in the 70's and 80's. The truth is if you want a shot at a difference making player in today's NBA you draft a black or foreign player. That's not to say many black or foreign players don't bust, but the VAST majority of the top players come from those two pools. If you can't see that you're simply naive.You laid down the criteria.
I think you lack the ability to properly grasp how much of a crapshoot ANY lottery pick is. And also some weird bias against white college players.
rodg12
Footballguy
You're showing your lack of knowledge. Every team in the league given the choice would take Rudy Gobert over Hayward given the choice.Gordon Hayward clearly the best player on the Jazz.
rodg12
Footballguy
Fine, it's a debate between he and Gobert. But, he's a top 20 player in the game. Meaning he's very obviously someone that could be the best player on a team. To discount him because he plays with Gobert is stupid.
First you start with some BS argument about counting the number of white college players that made All NBA teams and All Star teams and comparing them to the rest. I did. You got pwned. Now you move the goal posts.
I'm out.
No, it's not a debate. Gobert is far and away the better player and Heyward is not a top 20 player in the league, so you got owned. Nothing you say changes the fact that over the past 21 years Love and Heyward are the only two white college players selected in the lottery who have been worth a damn. That is a terrible return on investment.
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rodg12
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I didn't see the us born part, but how stupid of an argument is that? Only the 3rd best player on a championship team, so a top 30 or 40 player in the league.petekrum said:
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That has more to do with the lack of rim protectors and skilled big men in the league then who is the better player. Remember Oden getting drafted ahead of Durant? Everyone thought Durant was the better player in college, but how often do you get a chance to get a dominate big man?petekrum said:
You're missing the point. The point is if you are a bad team drafting in the lottery you want to draft a transcendent player that can elevate your franchise. There have been 2 white college players drafted in the lottery over the past 21 years who have been worth a damn, Love and Heyward and neither of them has been a difference maker. Love never even got the Wolves to the playoffs, and Utah is a borderline playoff team at best. My point is that two decades of data prove if you want a player who can change the course of your franchise he damn well better be African American or foreign.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Because these transcendent players just fall off trees and are in every draft, sorry but that is a dumb drafting to only swing for the fences and strike out a lot. Sometimes a double is okay. Utah is the 4th seed, won their division and are going to win 50 games, Love never got Minnesota to the playoffs because he was either injured or there was nothing around him, and the west was loaded back then. Kyrie Irving never got the Cavs to the playoffs until Lebron came back guess he is a bust of a lottery pick too.
You like baseball analogies, here's one. 2 out of 36 white college lottery picks have been better than mediocre over the last 21 years. So there's your two doubles. No home runs, two doubles and thirty four fielders choices. At least with a black or foreign player you have a CHANCE at a HR.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
You are just wrong, because you don't take all the facts about the draft or the players. What players were left, was it a weak or strong draft class, the needs of the team, did the player get hurt and that ruin his career, the bust rate of other players, plus guys like Kanter, Kaman, Redick, and others have had nice NBA careers.
No, I'm not. It's right there in black and white. 36 white college lottery picks. 2 better than average players. Those are the facts.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I am sure there will be some general manager opening this year in the NBA, with undeniable logic like that you should be a shoe in for one of those jobs.
rodg12
Footballguy
Run the math for the rest of the lottery picks in that time and see if it's better than 2/36 for this strange 'better than average' designation you're using.
HINT: It's not...
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I don't know if that's totally true. There have been 294 lottery picks in the past 21 years, I believe. Around 50 of them would probably be considered better than average.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1996&year_max=2016&round_min=1&round_max=1&college_id=0&pick_overall_min=1&pick_overall_max=14&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&order_by=ws
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Does Lauri Markkanen count? He's from Finland, but he went to Arizona and will be a lottery pick.
Can't you see the percentages don't matter? Look at the All NBA teams, look at every team in the league. The best players, the players that give you a chance to win are black or foreign. That's indisputable.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Are we still on this? It is stupid and wrong. The OP probably couldn't even tell you the shape of a basketball.
It's not wrong just because you don't like it. There are two teams in the league, Cleveland and Utah that have a white college player among their top three players. Every other team their top three players are black or foreign. Ignore the facts if you want.
Eephus
Footballguy
modogg
Footballguy
Am I missing something, or was Shawn Bradley drafted before '95. I guess he was. And this list hurts, seeing the name "Keith Van Horn" sends chills down my spine before I throw up in my mouth