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Dynasty & Redraft: Giants WR John Ross


Faust

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Could be the last week to get this guy for free! 

GB looks pretty rough against the pass (what else is new) and CIN may have to throw a lot. 

Of course he's not off to a glorious career so far... 


Might be worth a stash. Could be WW pick up of the week after this one if he can catch on. Guy is super fast. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
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John Ross (knee) is practicing in full for Week 8.

It's his first full practice since Week 2. Ross look on track to play Sunday, but figures to have a limited role in his first game back.

Source: Katherine Terrell on Twitter

 

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John Ross is a healthy scratch for Week 9 against the Jaguars.

Ross returned from a five-game absence last week, but played only six snaps. It's shaping up as a developmental rookie year for him. The rest of the Bengals inactives are RB Jeremy Hill, WR Tyler Boyd, OG Christian Westerman, OG Alex Redmond, LB Kevin Minter, and K Randy Bullock.

Source: Paul Dehner on Twitter 

Nov 5 - 11:47 AM

 

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2 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

I think it's inexcusable to air this out in public. Even if he is a headache and isn't acting reachable it's a coach's responsibility to make him a better player.

If a player questioned his coach's decision making through the media he'd be crucified for not being a team player.

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4 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I think it's inexcusable to air this out in public. Even if he is a headache and isn't acting reachable it's a coach's responsibility to make him a better player.

If a player questioned his coach's decision making through the media he'd be crucified for not being a team player.

I agree.

Some times coaches will air this stuff to the public as another form of motivation for the player but I think it is always unprofessional for them to do so. In my view it is showing poor communication skills and leadership of the coach when they do this.

I think frankness is more forgivable for a coach whos team is winning and the coach is doing there job. When a coach is losing it reeks more of desperation and throwing the players under the bus to cover their own behinds.

Regardless I think it is unprofessional.

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Bengals WR John Ross is a healthy scratch in Week 12 versus the Browns. CB KeiVarae Russell, RB Brian Hill, S Shawn Williams, LB Vinny Rey, OL Alex Redmond, and OL Christian Westerman are also inactive for the Bengals Sunday.

This is the third healthy scratch over the past four games for the ninth overall pick in this year's draft. Ross has yet to record a reception in his rookie season on just a pair of targets and fumbled his lone touch on the season. His rookie season appears to be a lost cause.

 

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Marvin Lewis needs to go.  Once he’s gone ross will have a chance to flourish.  You have to put the kid in the game and let him learn on the job.  That’s what Titans are doing with Corey Davis and he’s making rookie mistakes but by next year he will be much better for it.  Lewis is an idiot. 

Edited by rickyg
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Lewis is coaching the way he thinks is best not the way he thinks will keep him his job.  The kid really did quit on the route Lewis was complaining about, and it really did hurt the team because Dalton threw it to where he was supposed to be. 

Benching him - and not just a symbolic, you don't get to start this week but you still play every snap - could end up making Ross a better player overall.  Catch this now instead of when he's a 26 year old diva, get him to work out like a professional this off season and avoid the conditioning injuries, and he could become what they drafted him to be. 

That said, they're wasting a year of a cheap contract because the coach feels that this is the best way to coach him.  That's fine and might be true, but it's also why they find themselves in a talent deficit because their coach is using valuable games/years of rookie contracts to supplement his inability to coach rookies into immediate play time.  I like Lewis, but I do think it's time for him to go. 

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14 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Lewis is coaching the way he thinks is best not the way he thinks will keep him his job.  The kid really did quit on the route Lewis was complaining about, and it really did hurt the team because Dalton threw it to where he was supposed to be. 

Benching him - and not just a symbolic, you don't get to start this week but you still play every snap - could end up making Ross a better player overall.  Catch this now instead of when he's a 26 year old diva, get him to work out like a professional this off season and avoid the conditioning injuries, and he could become what they drafted him to be. 

That said, they're wasting a year of a cheap contract because the coach feels that this is the best way to coach him.  That's fine and might be true, but it's also why they find themselves in a talent deficit because their coach is using valuable games/years of rookie contracts to supplement his inability to coach rookies into immediate play time.  I like Lewis, but I do think it's time for him to go. 

Sure maybe Ross deserves to be benched, but by that standard Marvin Lewis should also bench himself. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bengals declared WR John Ross, CB KeiVarae Russell, S Shawn Williams, LB Vincent Rey, LB Nick Vigil, OG Alex Redmond, and OG Christian Westerman inactive for Week 13 against the Steelers.

Ross remains a healthy scratch and seems to be in the coaching staff's doghouse.

 

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56 minutes ago, zeeshan2 said:

Adam Caplan✔@caplannfl

#Bengals placed WR John Ross on IR.

3:22 PM - Dec 6, 2017

 

This after:

 

Jay Morrison✔@JayMorrisonCMG

Marvin says good chance we see John Ross active Sunday. #Bengals

11:15 AM - Dec 6, 2017 · Cincinnati, OH

You just can't make this stuff up.

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21 hours ago, fruity pebbles said:

Me too. Was psyched when I got him at 1.10. Traded him and a 3rd at the deadline for the 1.14 next season.

Not a fan but it’s been pretty bad. I’m curious if he’s hurt or “hurt” to make another roster spot. Can’t believe the bengals with their awful team, didn’t get him some experience for the future. Pretty stupid from the outside looking in.

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  • 2 months later...

Horrible concept of spacing and which moves to use. I'm blown away and embarrassed that I didn't notice it in his college game. Until he figures that out (spend the offseason playing hoops? play tag? Something!) he's just gonna be a guy, a fast guy, but just a guy

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10 minutes ago, Bri said:

Horrible concept of spacing and which moves to use. I'm blown away and embarrassed that I didn't notice it in his college game. Until he figures that out (spend the offseason playing hoops? play tag? Something!) he's just gonna be a guy, a fast guy, but just a guy

What are you basing that on? His nfl 17 snaps or something else? 

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13 minutes ago, Bri said:

Horrible concept of spacing and which moves to use. I'm blown away and embarrassed that I didn't notice it in his college game. Until he figures that out (spend the offseason playing hoops? play tag? Something!) he's just gonna be a guy, a fast guy, but just a guy

Not too unlike DHB or Ted Ginn. Maybe he'll catch on sooner than Ginn, maybe he'll basically bust. 

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

What are you basing that on? His nfl 17 snaps or something else? 

His few snaps that were on gamepass and the weekly reports of his struggles had me rewatching college stuff trying to figure out what's going on. 

Here's an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJWauEzbIJQ only once or twice do you even see a move

there's a lengthier one (it seems like every website reviewed him last year) and he gets caught very often on screens. 

I had him like Tyreek Hill and really he reminds me of the bad Chris Henry that played for the Titans years ago. I don't see creativity and when he does do a move, often times it's like why would you juke there? Why spin there? You faked yourself right into the tackler.  

I don't remember it all, it's been months since I quit on him in dynasty but those college screens were awful and I guess stuck with me

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9 minutes ago, Bri said:

His few snaps that were on gamepass and the weekly reports of his struggles had me rewatching college stuff trying to figure out what's going on. 

Here's an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJWauEzbIJQ only once or twice do you even see a move

there's a lengthier one (it seems like every website reviewed him last year) and he gets caught very often on screens. 

I had him like Tyreek Hill and really he reminds me of the bad Chris Henry that played for the Titans years ago. I don't see creativity and when he does do a move, often times it's like why would you juke there? Why spin there? You faked yourself right into the tackler.  

I don't remember it all, it's been months since I quit on him in dynasty but those college screens were awful and I guess stuck with me

I'm interested in what you saw. At 1.30, 2.10, 2.25, 3.00, 3.25, and 3.40 i thought he made good moves.  There was another one where he was wide open deep and cut back in front of the defender, allowing him to catch up, but shielding him with his body as he adjusted to a poor throw, which seemed pretty good to me too. But you seem to know your stuff so I'm curious what you see that's so bad. 

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On 12/7/2017 at 4:20 PM, steelers1080 said:

Seems like Marvin Jones isn't a fan of his. Wonder if they get a new coach if he'll turn things around.

We should have kept Marvin Jones :(

Sanu leaving I was more okay with.

Hope this kid gets an actual genuine fair shot this year.

-QG

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On 2/26/2018 at 9:52 PM, bostonfred said:

I'm interested in what you saw. At 1.30, 2.10, 2.25, 3.00, 3.25, and 3.40 i thought he made good moves.  There was another one where he was wide open deep and cut back in front of the defender, allowing him to catch up, but shielding him with his body as he adjusted to a poor throw, which seemed pretty good to me too. But you seem to know your stuff so I'm curious what you see that's so bad. 

He's just straight or diagonal. He only runs one speed and it lacks purpose. For a long time, it was that an athlete can only move laterally if he is at 3/4 speed and can't do so at top speed. Jerry Rice and some other freaks seemed to do the impossible and wreck this but it still is a very good workable theory. 

Antonio Brown and ODB (and maybe maybe Taywan Taylor) are very clever the way they seem to have 6 different gears and every time you think they're going their fastest, there's another gear. 

Barry almost never ran full speed unless it was a foot race or when he cut all the way across. Dante Hall never did until he saw daylight. These are my faves. At 3/4 speed, they had a million tricks they could do. 

Jim Brown had very few moves but a wicked stiff arm and put his helmet down and somehow ran through people.

Walter was as unusual as could be with both a forward and backward lean. His center of gravity was probably in his thighs. He just defies every theory and I think it's the leans and incredible balance. 

I thought Ross was like Tyreek Hill, but he's not. Hill is clever. He uses bursts all over the field. It might not be a move per se but he bursts one direction, pauses, then bursts another, pauses...on and on. 

Everyone has their awareness of their speed and how to use it. Ross is full speed 24/7. This works in college but in the NFL, slows DBs are like 4.5 40 runners and not exactly slow. Since the defenders have the advantage of angles, Ross' huge speed advantage is taken away.

I mentioned all these guys having moves. Obviously, Dante Hall had like a million different things he could do and earned the nickname human joystick. As a defender closes in, this move is appropriate. If he's even closer, that move is. If he's on top of you, yet another move. It's all reactionary but also habitual. This is much of the game of basketball but for football, you see it in the best players. The slow ones use their frame and box out or shield the defender. That's still an awareness, a reaction, and a good result. 

Randall Cunningham almost never ran his fastest. He was a leaper. Outstanding ability to leap a different direction, even flipped once IIRC. 

I don't see any moves from Ross. He's basically a typical KR playing WR. Full speed 24/7, with almost no space awareness, speed awareness, positioning, and no moves. 

I know people disagree with me but I also know people aren't ready to cut bait on a high dynasty pick so early so I'm not sure their disagreements are honest. They don't post videos proving me wrong or tell stories of him doing XYZ in college.

You mentioned shielding. I didn't see it as that. He slows down and has his head all bent forward like please don't hit me. Hakeem Nicks was like 6 feet tall and most of us thought he was 6-3 or 6-4. He's the best example of positioning, maybe the best ever at that. It's just unreal how a "short" WR could make us all believe he was a common #1 WR but he did. Many TEs, Gates and Tony G especially, are experts at positioning with their basketball background. 

************

More on ODB, AB, and maybe maybe Taywan Taylor. (Greg Cosell and several names really adored his style and had him as a sleeper in the last draft and then he was impressive all summer so we'll have to see in year two) 

Rob Moore was interviewed recently and I just loved it. I imagine you can find it on the web. He was coached (and now preaches this) that there should never be a special catch. The WR should be at the spot at the right time and the ball should be right in his bread basket. Many variables in the game make this, of course, not so easy. 

The interviewer brought up AB and Moore demonstrated a simple crossing route. The guy is counting to 4 and the ball will be at the spot at 4 seconds. 1,2, Moore makes his cut and almost slows down, at 3 he explodes so that by 4 he is dead on right on the spot where he needs to be. The change in speed makes him a pain in the neck for the defender and leaves the defender with less than a second to react and get to the spot too. 

The Rams WRs had no savvy to them(like Ross) and their QB was a poor thinker. McVay set the NFL on fire with all their snap N throws. It's almost a page out of the Brady to Welker book. Brady snaps and Welker better be at that spot in 2 seconds flat. (On this play) There's no read once the ball is snapped, just snap N throw. McVay's offense just finished its first year. There is a little more to it, but that's the bulk of the passing game. I would guess he's going to have pump fakes, traditional routes, picks, and all sorts, but in its infancy, that's all it was. The Bengals could certainly employ Ross this way. They could also send him deep. It's defensible with press coverage and also a safety deep. 

I don't see stud, greatness, or anything like that. I was dead wrong and glad I got a nice return for him. 

All of these aspects of the game can be taught and learned by playing with people of similar speed. He could very well have always been the fastest and never had to learn. I was fine trading him away and suppose he develops in year three.

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There'll always be people writing off a player after a bad rookie season. But also some players adjust not so quickly to the NFL and manage to rebound.

I think John Ross has a decent chance to improve from a disastrous first year. Hurt in the beginning of the season and in the dog house at the end, he didn't get on the field enough for us to even notice how well he was playing. Plus, nobody other than A.J. Green managed to produce in a year to forget for the Bengals offense. 

I'd call Ross a solid hold.

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  • 1 month later...

I agree with Bri. Marvin Lewis also made the situation worse.

Ross reminds me of a combination of Troy Williamson and Tavon Austin. I really don't understand why teams keep using top 10 picks on super fast WR that play small and can't catch.

Edited by TwinTurbo
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John Ross has been training with former Bengals WR T.J. Houshmandzadeh in Long Beach.

Houshmandzadeh sees huge potential in Ross despite a disastrous rookie year that saw him go the entire season without catching a single pass. "If he’s working with me, bet your house on him," said Houshmandzadeh, an 11-year NFL vet who spent the bulk of his career in Cincinnati. Specifically, Houshmandzadeh wants to iron out Ross' route-running while improving his footwork. "You get to this level, everybody can run," he said. "Your technique and ability to separate has to come to the forefront because you can’t beat everybody with speed." Ross logged just 17 snaps as a rookie while battling knee and shoulder injuries.

Source:  bengals.com

Apr 6 - 3:15 PM

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7 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

I don't watch practice footage. Only see the games. So I'll take your word for it.

Do you find a lot of value is digging up year old posts?  Or has Torrey Smith suddenly learned how to run a route or catch in the interim? 

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8 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

Do you find a lot of value is digging up year old posts?  Or has Torrey Smith suddenly learned how to run a route or catch in the interim? 

We could change the discussion to whether "old posts" of less than a year ago are valuable or not. If you want to move the goal posts, that's fine. I'd prefer to confine the conversation to whether or not Ross can run a route, catch, or... "not suck" as much as some people were saying before the season started. 

Or better yet hopefully we can devolve the thread  into 10 pages on what the word production REALLY means. Those are my favorites.

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47 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

We could change the discussion to whether "old posts" of less than a year ago are valuable or not. If you want to move the goal posts, that's fine. I'd prefer to confine the conversation to whether or not Ross can run a route, catch, or... "not suck" as much as some people were saying before the season started. 

Or better yet hopefully we can devolve the thread  into 10 pages on what the word production REALLY means. Those are my favorites.

Goal posts are still intact.  Torrey Smith still can't catch and can't run routes and is on his what, 5th team now?  If you want to watch some games of Ross not sucking his college film is a great place to go.  The fact he's hurt doesn't change that, and the fact Torrey wasn't doesn't improve his football skills either.

And I know it was a year ago and you're not really trying, but the implication I was making was about Smith being terrible more than it was Ross being good.  I've long thought Smith was the most overrated player in the league and there are a lot of places I've posted that.  I don't have any skin in the Ross game, I didn't draft him anywhere and I don't have any real belief in him as an NFL player.  I'd take him over Torrey Smith all day though.

Edited by Hankmoody
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15 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I think posts from a year ago would be pretty relevant, actually, but then again I don't understand how a season lost to injury is evidence that he couldn't catch. 

The only thing that was proven right about Ross last year is that the health concerns are real. I still have faith that Ross will have 1 or 2 seasons of really big production. It's just a matter of staying healthy for 1 or 2 years. 

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44 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

I think posts from a year ago would be pretty relevant, actually, but then again I don't understand how a season lost to injury is evidence that he couldn't catch. 

I should have appended "to prove someone wrong".  Because sure, if you want to go back a year to find a hypothesis or question and do some thoughtful football analysis and bring it up that's productive.  But someone going back to find random people were wrong and bumping the post for that - that's kiddie stuff.  I think I stopped doing that when I was 11.  This forum is hard enough to get through at time and this crap makes it even harder.  So many people on this forum think that's fun stuff when all it does it clutter it up for the adults. 

Your second point is even more dead on.

Edited by Hankmoody
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4 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

The only thing that was proven right about Ross last year is that the health concerns are real. I still have faith that Ross will have 1 or 2 seasons of really big production. It's just a matter of staying healthy for 1 or 2 years. 

Well of course his health was a concerns coming out of college were real, I coulda told ya that when I was in the womb I tell ya! He had more than 500 yards in a season once in his time at the University of Washington. But if you dig deep, and ya I mean deep, into the beta max tapes of his junior high stuff(when he was healthy of course) you'll see gold! Pure gold, Jerry!

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  • Faust changed the title to Dynasty & Redraft: Giants WR John Ross

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