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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (12 Viewers)

fantasycurse42 said:
This thread is no longer about Kaepernick, his inability to be an NFL level QB anymore, and the reasons behind it, so I'll inquire about the above @Joe Bryant 

After giving the discussions from yesterday a read, the responses from both sides were sorta as expected, so these comments stood out to me and left me with a few questions, and as a frequent user of the site, I'd love to further understand. The site belongs and is owned by you guys, so the rules are what you say they are, and I feel that is more than fair. However, the moderation on this site today is as confusing (if not more) to me as it was almost a decade ago. With that being said:

1) Do you feel moderation is always level between all posters? I have no dog in any of these fights, but RBM seems no more of a troublemaker than Bruce Dickinson from all of my observations. 

2) From my standpoint, IRL, if someone called me nuts I wouldn't care all that much, but if someone said that they would nail my wife while I sat and watched in the corner, strong chance we're throwing fists. These two comments are on different levels, but based on the above, it looks like the wife comment got a 24 hour timeout from you (I've gotten much worse for far less, in my humble opinion of course). Do you feel these comments were equally wrong? I quoted BeaverCleaver bc I actually remember this poster telling another owner of the site he was an ####### and to go F himself, so I'm shocked someone like that has any leeway at all.  

3) Is there any favoritism given to specific posters? Similar to my first question.

4) Is there a set guideline to what someone will get for certain comments or is just based on the moderator, his mood that day, and his feeling towards a certain poster?  

If you would like, please feel free to move this to the moderation thread. And again, it is your site, so your rules are what they are and I think that is more than fair, I'd just love an explanation on this.

Thanks!
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FC I apologize for taking this thread off course but as I was being called a liar I just wanted to provide the background for where my comments came from. Like you I received a long multi month timeout in my case for a joking political term in a thread I thought was fine. It was concerning that this was reported and just shrugged off.  

 
Phil Elliott said:
Why partisans can't kick the hypocrisy habit.

I guess I am thinking in more general terms. Agree with your statement in general, but you were only focusing on the republicans. I think both sides are guilty. 
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You do know that in the novel, "North Dallas Forty", Phil Elliot talks about a directive from the league/team about player conduct during the anthem. Elliot says that, in direct defiance to the directive, he picks his nose and scratches his balls at least once during the anthem.

 
packersfan said:
When the day comes when people upset with the protests realize these aren't protests of the American flag maybe we can get somewhere in truly addressing the issues at hand.

But since that day will likely never come we're pretty much f'd. 
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Hear what you are saying, but I think its very difficult for some people to overlook the fact that these players choose the moment following the PA announcer saying "And now, please rise and remove your caps and join singer guy/gal in honoring America..." to show their disapproval of perceived injustice perpetrated by certain individuals in this country. If the Anthem only honored police or specifically mentioned them, I could see it a little more. Then it would be more clear who/what they are showing their disgust with, IMO. But the performing of the Anthem is intended to honor all the great things America is and I think many people find it difficult to see people (refusing to participate in that honoring) as a protest solely of the injustices endured by some at the hands of select individual Americans.  

 
packersfan said:
OK but if he doesn't believe the protests should occur during the anthem don't you think he might stand to benefit in some way from asking the players who are kneeling why they are doing it? It may not change his mind but I don't see how that would be a negative thing, especially given his position as a team leader.   
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I'm not sure why you think he hasn't talked to his black teammates about it already.  They had a team meeting to decide how to handle it on Saturday.  By all accounts it was a very emotional meeting.

 
whiskey7 said:
Hear what you are saying, but I think its very difficult for some people to overlook the fact that these players choose the moment following the PA announcer saying "And now, please rise and remove your caps and join singer guy/gal in honoring America..." to show their disapproval of perceived injustice perpetrated by certain individuals in this country. If the Anthem only honored police or specifically mentioned them, I could see it a little more. Then it would be more clear who/what they are showing their disgust with, IMO. But the performing of the Anthem is intended to honor all the great things America is and I think many people find it difficult to see people (refusing to participate in that honoring) as a protest solely of the injustices endured by some at the hands of select individual Americans.  
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I agree. The natural follow-up questions should be "Why are you doing it and why are you choosing that time to do it?" But instead we get anger which Trump pushes to further divide our country and continue his ongoing culture war. 

Trump isn't responsible for our society's refusal to engage in intelligent and meaningful discourse without rancor. He is simply the logical extension of it and, unfortunately, someone with a tremendous amount of power and influence to ensure it won't come to fruition. 

 
one other thing to think about in all of this is the framing that the protesters are somehow being disrespectful of the military and men and women who serve this country.   The diversity of the military now contains a more diverse makeup than the US population itself.  do people somehow think the military is all white guys?

As the country has become more racially and ethnically diverse, so has the U.S. military. Racial and ethnic minority groups made up 40% of Defense Department active-duty military in 2015, up from 25% in 1990. (In 2015, 44% of all Americans ages 18 to 44 were racial or ethnic minorities.)

In the same year, blacks made up 17% of the DOD active-duty military – somewhat higher than their share of the U.S. population ages 18 to 44 (13%). Blacks have consistently been represented in greater shares among enlisted personnel (19% in 2015) than among the commissioned officers (9%). The share of the active-duty force that is Hispanic has risen rapidly in recent decades. In 2015, 12% of all active-duty personnel were Hispanic, three times the share in 1980.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/13/6-facts-about-the-u-s-military-and-its-changing-demographics/

 
Radical Larry said:
You do know that in the novel, "North Dallas Forty", Phil Elliot talks about a directive from the league/team about player conduct during the anthem. Elliot says that, in direct defiance to the directive, he picks his nose and scratches his balls at least once during the anthem.
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Yes, I was going to point out that I lost my job with the North Dallas Bulls because I wasn't necessarily a team player - rather defiant in fact. But I figured someone would point it out. Thanks.   :hifive:    That's my point, you have the right to protest, whatever that form is, but that doesn't mean there may not  be any consequences. It could be for the Steeler that was defiant to the coach that told him not to go out of the locker room for the national anthem or it could be from the players that decide to go against Jerry Jones and not stand up for the national anthem. 

 
whiskey7 said:
Hear what you are saying, but I think its very difficult for some people to overlook the fact that these players choose the moment following the PA announcer saying "And now, please rise and remove your caps and join singer guy/gal in honoring America..." to show their disapproval of perceived injustice perpetrated by certain individuals in this country. If the Anthem only honored police or specifically mentioned them, I could see it a little more. Then it would be more clear who/what they are showing their disgust with, IMO. But the performing of the Anthem is intended to honor all the great things America is and I think many people find it difficult to see people (refusing to participate in that honoring) as a protest solely of the injustices endured by some at the hands of select individual Americans.  
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That's a feature, not a bug. If people are comfortable with a protest they'll ignore it.

 
Phil Elliott said:
Yes, I was going to point out that I lost my job with the North Dallas Bulls because I wasn't necessarily a team player - rather defiant in fact. But I figured someone would point it out. Thanks.   :hifive:    That's my point, you have the right to protest, whatever that form is, but that doesn't mean there may not  be any consequences. It could be for the Steeler that was defiant to the coach that told him not to go out of the locker room for the national anthem or it could be from the players that decide to go against Jerry Jones and not stand up for the national anthem. 
Click to expand...
BA was a tool.

 
packersfan said:
Which appears to indicate he on some level believes the protests are about the flag and anthem. I responded by saying he might want to talk to his black teammates to find out if that's what the protests are really about.
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If the intent of the protest can be easily misunderstood, isn't it fair to question if its the right time/place/method?

If I go out and do something to draw attention to something that is important to me but what I do is ambiguous enough that a lot of the people who see me doing it don't know what I am really trying to do, what is the point? Further, if a good number of those people not only don't understand it but take it as an insult, cant it be argued its doing more harm than good? :shrug:

 
TobiasFunke said:
No, only one side is guilty of taking the asinine "love it or leave it" approach to peaceful protest.
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Tobias, you are better than this than to generalize based on one specific example.  Agree with you in your specific instance and I totally respect anyone to protest regardless of the issue.   But I think there probably is more than one instance on both sides where the hypocrisy is based on who the POTUS is. My point is there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around on both sides. 

 
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Skoo said:
You'll notice the general view conservatives have of protesters is directly linked to who is sitting in the oval office.

Protesting the Iraq war = If you don't like this country, GTFO!

Protesting Obamacare = Patriotic Americans doing their patriotic duty of standing up against a tyrannical government

Protesting police brutality = If you don't like this country, GTFO!
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kneeling during the national anthem =4 more years. Priceless.

 
Dickies said:
He said what they are doing is absolutely wrong.  It's not wrong, and our country allows it.

It's like the confederate monuments that were erected during the civil rights movement.  "Be thankful you are getting equal rights, but let us put up these reminders of how it should be in case you get out of line"
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"It almost sounds like he would prefer we treat protesters like North Korea does."

This is what you posted that I responded to. Where did he say that?

 
Phil Elliott said:
Tobias, you are better than this than to generalize based on one specific example.  Agree with you in your specific instance and I totally respect anyone to protest regardless of the issue.   But I think there probably is more than one instance on both sides where the hypocrisy is based on who the POTUS is. My point is there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around on both sides. 
Click to expand...
There is, but the post to which you responded wasn't that broad. It was specifically about responding to protestors with a "love it or leave it" attitude, and that is definitely NOT something that is done by both sides.

 
TobiasFunke said:
There is, but the post to which you responded wasn't that broad. It was specifically about responding to protestors with a "love it or leave it" attitude, and that is definitely NOT something that is done by both sides.
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Ok. But you responded with your specific "love it or leave it" case to my post that I was referring to general hypocrisy on both sides. I wasn't referring to a specific case. Totally agree with your specific "love or leave it" attitude instance. 

 
What's the Jerry Jones back story on protests, hasn't he said in the past he didn't want players protesting during the anthem? Assume he makes an exception this week?

 
Steve Kerr has been railing on the president for the last few days. Gregg Popovich pulled no punches today:
 

At media day in San Antonio on Monday, Popovich once again lit into the president.

In regards to the Trump administration, he said, "The childishness and the gratuitous fear-mongering and race-baiting has been so consistent that it's almost expected."

He called President Trump's rescinding of the Golden State Warriors' invitation to the White House "disgusting ... comical ... like a sixth-grader who was going to have a party in his backyard and he finds out somebody might not come, so he disinvites him."

Popovich then decried the example that he believes the president has set: "Our country is an embarrassment in the world. This is an individual who actually thought that when people held arms during the games that they were doing it to honor the flag. That's delusional. Absolutely delusional. But it's what we have to live with.
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It's weird that Trump saves all his anger for Curry and the black athletes that protest and says nothing about Kerr and Popovich.  Does anyone have any theories as to why that might be? It's a real brain-buster

BTW here's how Pop finished his comments:

"So you got a choice: We can continue to bounce our heads off the wall with his conduct, or we can decide that the institutions of our country are more important, that people are more important, that the decent America that we all thought we had and we want is more important, and get down to the business at the grassroots level and do what we have to do."
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Nothing by respect for MY president.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Steve Kerr has been railing on the president for the last few days. Gregg Popovich pulled no punches today:
 

It's weird that Trump saves all his anger for Curry and the black athletes that protest and says nothing about Kerr and Popovich.  Does anyone have any theories as to why that might be? It's a real brain-buster

BTW here's how Pop finished his comments:

Nothing by respect for MY president.
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Popp and Kerr have been amazing.  The NBA coaching culture in general has been pretty amazing. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Steve Kerr has been railing on the president for the last few days. Gregg Popovich pulled no punches today:
 

It's weird that Trump saves all his anger for Curry and the black athletes that protest and says nothing about Kerr and Popovich.  Does anyone have any theories as to why that might be? It's a real brain-buster

BTW here's how Pop finished his comments:

Nothing by respect for MY president.
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Both of them are really smart guys.  The first in-depth interview I ever heard Pop give was probably the best interview I've ever heard.

 
Dickies said:
Both of them are really smart guys.  The first in-depth interview I ever heard Pop give was probably the best interview I've ever heard.
Click to expand...
Ask Popovich a question on the sidelines during a game and he gives you absolutely nothing.

Ask Popovich a dumb question in the press room after a game and he will insult you.

Ask Popovich a series of smart questions when he's not trying to coach a basketball game and he will dig deep to give you the best answers he can summon.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Ask Popovich a question on the sidelines during a game and he gives you absolutely nothing.

Ask Popovich a dumb question in the press room after a game and he will insult you.

Ask Popovich a series of smart questions when he's not trying to coach a basketball game and he will dig deep to give you the best answers he can summon.  
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As it should be.  I keep waiting for networks to do away with sideline reporters.  It's a silly exercise.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I had heard from people on the radio who played with Tillman that he was the type of person that would have been in full support for the players kneeling.
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Could be right I don't know much about him beyond leaving the NFL to serve the country and made the ultimate sacrifice. When one of your own former players lost his life serving our country it definitely deserves some additional consideration. 

 
randall146 said:
This is part of the disconnect for me. We are told to rise to honor America, not to honor our military. Shouldn't it therefore be obvious that refusing to stand is refusing to honor America, not the military?
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Many are confusing this.  They think the flag represents the military when it doesn't.  Our military does defend America which our flag represents so there is a connection.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Popp and Kerr have been amazing.  The NBA coaching culture in general has been pretty amazing. 
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The NBA worked out a lot of the cultural/racial stuff that still challenges the NFL (and to a lesser extent, MLB) decades ago.  They had black coaches going head-to-head in the Finals back in 1975.  When the league finally got serious about cocaine use among players in the early 80s, they emphasized treatment over punishment.  The league never needed a "Rooney Rule" because the league naturally pursued black coaches and front office personnel (nor did college basketball, FWIW; by 1990 or so a school with an all-white coaching staff couldn't land top black recruits anymore, and those black assistants added to staffs in the 1980s were running programs a decade later).  In general salaries have escalated with revenues, and while the league caps individual player salaries, the league work their ### off with the players' association to get endorsement deals and to get everybody on TV as often as possible.  Team USA adding NBA players and a year-round program has also helped with league-wide culture - all the top players have the chance to get to know each other well and be teammates in international play, creating moments like LeBron James popping up to support Steph Curry when the President picks a petty feud with him.  

NBA even went through its own anthem protest brouhaha back in 1996 when Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf sat out the anthem because he saw the flag as a symbol of tyranny and oppression.  After a week or so of controversy (wow, did I get some awesome hate mail when I supported Abdul-Rauf on this one), a compromise was reached where Abdul-Rauf could stand with his head down in prayer.  His career went downhill quickly, and how much of that was backlash against his anthem protest and how much of that was physical/medical (Abdul-Rauf has Tourette's Syndrome and struggled to find the proper medical treatment that allowed him to function as a human being and play top-level basketball) is debatable.  But it was weird that this guy with a lightning first step and smooth shooting stroke was out of the league at 29.     

    

 
TobiasFunke said:
Steve Kerr has been railing on the president for the last few days. Gregg Popovich pulled no punches today:
 

It's weird that Trump saves all his anger for Curry and the black athletes that protest and says nothing about Kerr and Popovich.  Does anyone have any theories as to why that might be? It's a real brain-buster

BTW here's how Pop finished his comments:

Nothing by respect for MY president.
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Like most of us he's probably never heard of them. 

 
GoBirds said:
That would be pretty extreme, assume tonight is more of the same but Pat Tillman is something I didn't consider. 
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I've read that tonight the players will lock arms on both teams.

Idk, I'd just like as an NFL fan to sit down and enjoy a good competitive game with hoping Dallas coming out on top

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I've read that tonight the players will lock arms on both teams.

Idk, I'd just like as an NFL fan to sit down and enjoy a good competitive game with hoping Dallas coming out on top
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For team unity? Supporting not protesting or supporting protesting or against Trump, maybe, just America's Team again?

 
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Many don’t know this, but the Supreme Court long ago ruled that its unconstitutional to be forced to salute the flag. 

 
Phil Elliott said:
Anedoctally, It seems most of the people that disagree with the players protesting, agree they have the right to do so but don't think doing it during the national anthem or at the game is appropriate. Just seems to be the polls/opinions that I have seen/heard. Your mileage may differ. The protests are starting to lose value as there seem to be several causes and I don't know which player is protesting which cause or just against Trump's dumb comments. And the players standing but with interlocked arms are supporting the players right to protests or do they have the same causes too?  Maybe we can have all the players that want to protest go to one end zone and kneel and the players that want to pray go to the other end zone and kneel. 

More generally, the right to free speech doesn't mean there aren't consequences. Many companies do background checks that include social media. Depending on what you post, may have an affect on your employment opportunity or it may impact your status of current employment. If you are posting you are a big oil supporter and don't support climate change, you may not get that job offer with the solar panel company.   If you stand in your company's lobby nude to protest animal rights, you certainly have the right, but you may not be working for that company any longer.  

I don't mind them protesting at the games and don't mind how they do it. Does someone have the book on proper protesting protocol?  
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/thread

Kind of surprised not a single person liked this post, worth a read.

 
squistion said:
Matt Novak‏ @paleofuture 7m7 minutes ago

The Fox News reporter keeps asking about Trump calling players "SOBs"

because he can't even quote the president in polite company.
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This is pretty rich considering the left thinks that commercials with children saying "F Trump", comedians holding up bloody severed heads of Trump, and thousands of woman running around the streets wearing female genitalia on their heads is somehow appropriate. 

 
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