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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (5 Viewers)

Stealthycat said:
Obama was a clown in many people's eyes ... GW Bush was, Carter was, Nixon was ............ did the NFL and NBA players and MLB guys etc do this kind of thing? 

So they're kneeling to protest Trump who spoke out against their kneeling, which was a protest against what? 
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There is no equivalency between Trump and any other major US political figure. None. W and Carter were both bad Presidents -- all professional political historians agree -- but they were serious guys with qualifications for the office trying to do a good job. Trump is a reality TV buffoon. There is no reasonable comparison.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
They're protesting systematic injustice and institutional racism in our criminal justice system; it goes far beyond just the instances of officer involved shootings.
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a better reply - thank you

I understand that's what they want to do .......... but is there any truth to blaming the system and the institution ? Its become a very political thing to say it , but the discussions of it isn't as cut and dry

 
Stealthycat said:
a better reply - thank you

I understand that's what they want to do .......... but is there any truth to blaming the system and the institution ? Its become a very political thing to say it , but the discussions of it isn't as cut and dry
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Of course there is. The research is extensive and easily available online.

 
Richard W. Painter‏ @RWPUSA 17h17 hours ago

Just got a "stand or kneel" email from POTUS with a push poll and ask for support.

He's using our national anthem to raise cash.

Disrespect.

 
This is pretty funny:

Trump's NFL Fight Dates Back to His Failed USFL Experiment in the '80s

“Rozelle said to him, ‘You will never be an owner in the NFL. As long as I’m affiliated with the NFL or my family is affiliated with the NFL, you will never have a team in the NFL.’” Because they just saw him as this scumbag huckster. He was this New York, fast-talking, kind of con-man. You know? He was just a huckster and they didn’t really want that.

 
If your only action is taking a knee during the national anthem as a protest, then aren't you saying this isn't your country?  If you are not doing anything with your millions of dollars to help fix the perceived problem other than grandstanding during the anthem, isn't this a stupid protest?

 
what's the fallacy that says I shouldn't be an environmental activist because of starvation happening in Africa?  

 
knowledge dropper said:
If your only action is taking a knee during the national anthem as a protest, then aren't you saying this isn't your country?  If you are not doing anything with your millions of dollars to help fix the perceived problem other than grandstanding during the anthem, isn't this a stupid protest?
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Can you please provide a list of the "kneelers" that don't do anything else?

I'll hang up and listen.

 
knowledge dropper said:
If your only action is taking a knee during the national anthem as a protest, then aren't you saying this isn't your country?  If you are not doing anything with your millions of dollars to help fix the perceived problem other than grandstanding during the anthem, isn't this a stupid protest?
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STOP THIS

 
knowledge dropper said:
If your only action is taking a knee during the national anthem as a protest, then aren't you saying this isn't your country?  If you are not doing anything with your millions of dollars to help fix the perceived problem other than grandstanding during the anthem, isn't this a stupid protest?
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OK, I think that'll about wrap up things here. Say hello to ignore.

 
Old Smiley said:
This is pretty funny:

Trump's NFL Fight Dates Back to His Failed USFL Experiment in the '80s

“Rozelle said to him, ‘You will never be an owner in the NFL. As long as I’m affiliated with the NFL or my family is affiliated with the NFL, you will never have a team in the NFL.’” Because they just saw him as this scumbag huckster. He was this New York, fast-talking, kind of con-man. You know? He was just a huckster and they didn’t really want that.
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Worth repeating what I posted yesterday about the New York results from the election. Those people know Trump well and voted strongly for Clinton. 

 
Brony said:
I thought Bob Costas thoughts on the matter were on point and consistent with my thoughts.  I hate the direction we're going as a nation where absolute adoration and respect of the military is being used for political gain. It's a noble sentiment to begin with, but can be abused if taken to extremes and we're on that trajectory now.  It leaves no room for nuance and shuts down discussion. 
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So i it's kind of a reverse political correctness...

 
To Steelers Nation:

I want to reach out to you, the members of Steelers Nation, based on what I believe is a misperception about our players' intentions in not taking the field for the National Anthem in Chicago. The intentions of Steelers players were to stay out of the business of making political statements by not taking the field. Unfortunately, that was interpreted as a boycott of the anthem – which was never our players' intention.

Our players come from many different backgrounds and are united by what it means to play for the Pittsburgh Steelers. They are active in their communities and participate regularly in events designed to give back to those communities. And they appreciate the support they get from Steelers fans around the country and here at home.

I also know that our players have tremendous respect for the members of our military services, including their teammate Alejandro Villanueva. There was never any desire on the part of our players to show disrespect for our service members.

Yesterday, I received an email from a Steelers fan who said tell the players to just play football. That is exactly what they wanted to do. They wanted their sole focus to be on playing the game, while also coming together as a unified team.

The main thing we can do is learn from this and strive to come together remaining unified as a football team. I believe we are capable of accomplishing this with the support of our fans.

Steelers Nation is made up of the best fans in the National Football League. We appreciate your continued support of our players, coaches and staff.

Sincerely,

Art Rooney, II

Pittsburgh Steelers

 
Old Smiley said:
This is pretty funny:

Trump's NFL Fight Dates Back to His Failed USFL Experiment in the '80s

“Rozelle said to him, ‘You will never be an owner in the NFL. As long as I’m affiliated with the NFL or my family is affiliated with the NFL, you will never have a team in the NFL.’” Because they just saw him as this scumbag huckster. He was this New York, fast-talking, kind of con-man. You know? He was just a huckster and they didn’t really want that.
Click to expand...
If you haven't yet had the pleasure of viewing the USFL episode of the ESPN 30 For 30 series, I highly recommend seeking it out.   It's called "Small Potatoes".  Trump is a major character in it.

 
knowledge dropper said:
If your only action is taking a knee during the national anthem as a protest, then aren't you saying this isn't your country?  If you are not doing anything with your millions of dollars to help fix the perceived problem other than grandstanding during the anthem, isn't this a stupid protest?
Click to expand...
Kaepernick did more than just take a knee during the anthem. He has donated $800k to charity, but never seems to get any credit for that from his critics. I think if we were to documented charity work and donations of many of these players, I would expect the same "meh" response that we have seen with Kaep.

 
Autumn Wind said:
Yeah, you're saying black people should stop complaining because other bad things are happening.
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focusing on the exceptionally few police shootings that are questionable and ignoring the inner cities and communities and the violence and drugs .......... yes to me that's ignoring the gaping infected wound to address a scratch. 

 
Hawkeye21 said:
Trump called them SOBs and suggested that they should be fired for expressing their rights which the President is suppose to stand for and protect.
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so disrespecting millions of Americans and fans is the way to express that?

that's the best way? its not - I assure you the NFL is going to lose rating and viewers and fans over this .......... and Trump lost support too. Both were wrong, both lost

that's what I have said consistently  

 
TobiasFunke said:
If you think the protests about injustice in law enforcement are only about unjustified killings, you need to listen a LOT more before speaking on the subject. It's about systemic bias and excessive use of force and lack of accountability and other problems.  Shooting unarmed black people, while tragic and a flash point for protests, are a small part of the message.

Also people can care about more than one thing.  And how would they go about protesting every shooting death in the last 72 hours anyway?  Some are related to other crimes, some are products of the drug trade, some are the product of domestic disputes, some are the product of negligence. The only thing they have in common are the guns, and plenty of people have been banging their heads against the wall for common sense gun control for decades.
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That's a hug paint brush ......... are you basically saying that all the problems of the non-white communities are because of whites? 

 
Stealthycat said:
so disrespecting millions of Americans and fans is the way to express that?

that's the best way? its not - I assure you the NFL is going to lose rating and viewers and fans over this .......... and Trump lost support too. Both were wrong, both lost

that's what I have said consistently  
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NFL ratings went up this weekend. MNF ratings the highest in four years.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
Of course there is. The research is extensive and easily available online.
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no it isn't

using data and twisting the cause of that data are two different things

is it racist that the majority of NFL RB's are black? it has to be, right? what, 63% of the US is white so about 60% of NFL RB's should be white

right ?

 
Stealthycat said:
focusing on the exceptionally few police shootings that are questionable and ignoring the inner cities and communities and the violence and drugs .......... yes to me that's ignoring the gaping infected wound to address a scratch. 
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You're creating a straw man. The protests are about far more than a few shootings, they're about systemic problems with law enforcement.  And I have yet to see or hear from an athlete who is protesting that doesn't also do other things for the community.

 
Stealthycat said:
lets see how all this shakes out - you think millions aren't pissed, you're wrong IMO

time will tell
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I don't recall saying people aren't upset.

I have said that those who are upset may not understand what the protests are really about. Or they do understand and don't care and have other reasons for being upset. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
You're creating a straw man. The protests are about far more than a few shootings, they're about systemic problems with law enforcement.  And I have yet to see or hear from an athlete who is protesting that doesn't also do other things for the community.
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and yet, 75 pages here and nobody is talking about the core problems of the United States

instead, its about the stupid remarks of the President, the offensive kneeling by players .......... more division, nobody is talking about the problems

like I said, nobody won in this, everyone lost

 
Stealthycat said:
That's a hug paint brush ......... are you basically saying that all the problems of the non-white communities are because of whites? 
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I honestly have no idea what part of my post gave you this impression.

I'm gonna copy and paste my post here, because it's so baffling:
 

If you think the protests about injustice in law enforcement are only about unjustified killings, you need to listen a LOT more before speaking on the subject. It's about systemic bias and excessive use of force and lack of accountability and other problems.  Shooting unarmed black people, while tragic and a flash point for protests, are a small part of the message.

Also people can care about more than one thing.  And how would they go about protesting every shooting death in the last 72 hours anyway?  Some are related to other crimes, some are products of the drug trade, some are the product of domestic disputes, some are the product of negligence. The only thing they have in common are the guns, and plenty of people have been banging their heads against the wall for common sense gun control for decades.
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Where's the part where I even discuss "all the problems of non-white communities," let alone assign blame for them?

 
whiskey7 said:
I am a little confused by this. Are you suggesting folks (who don't like players protesting during the anthem) should not feel its disrespectful to any one part of America because it's actually a refusal to honor...everything America? :unsure:

When we just say "America", what are we including? Its everything, isn't it? The good and bad (of which I believe the good still far outweighs the bad)? So if/when someone refuses to honor America, can we really rip anyone for taking that refusal as a disrespectful slight to some/all of the good?

I think the player's protest would be more effective if it targeted more specifically what it is the players are actually upset about. The method and timing leaves the door open for misunderstanding, IMO. I would think they'd want no ambiguity :shrug:
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Most of the outcry seems to be based on the premise that protesting the anthem is disrespectful to the military.  That's what Trump was saying, and that's why we have people here claiming that every military person they know is for the protests, or against the protests.

My point is that the military seems to have (intentionally or otherwise) co-opted "the flag" and "the anthem" so that military people and the public generally believes that a protest during the anthem is disrespectful to soldier.

But the anthem is not just about the military, as far as I've ever known.  I'm pointing out that even at stadiums they don't (usually) say "please rise and honor our troops," they say "please rise and honor America."

So if rising is honoring America, not the military, kneeling is protesting America, not the military.  They are getting attention by protesting at a highly visible and symbolic time, and then using that attention to say what the protest is about.

I've also noticed that many people critical of the protests have been saying "they have a right to protest but it would be more effective if . . ."  You do here, other posters have too, and Sarah Huckabee was doing it yesterday.  So it seems like you recognize the point of the protests.  So the protests were successful.  Maybe your energy should be spent on addressing the problems being protested, rather than suggesting the way you would have preferred to get the message.

 
Stealthycat said:
and yet, 75 pages here and nobody is talking about the core problems of the United States

instead, its about the stupid remarks of the President, the offensive kneeling by players .......... more division, nobody is talking about the problems

like I said, nobody won in this, everyone lost
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Racial injustice is easily one of the biggest problems in this country. The protests are a reaction to that very real and serious problem. 

 
packersfan said:
I don't recall saying people aren't upset.

I have said that those who are upset may not understand what the protests are really about. Or they do understand and don't care and have other reasons for being upset. 
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when you see someone kneeling instead of standing for the national anthem, that's not misunderstanding anything

don't trivialize people being pissed off at the ignorant kneeling/protesting - don't belittle them and say they don't understand or if they do they're something else.

the players brought this on themselves by choosing their actions - personal responsibility 

 
TobiasFunke said:
I honestly have no idea what part of my post gave you this impression.

I'm gonna copy and paste my post here, because it's so baffling:
Click to expand...


I was asking if that was where your thought process was going ?

Who is responsible for this social injustice and systematic bias ?

 
Stealthycat said:
1 hour ago, squistion said:

Racial inequality.
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point to me where that exists - I'm dead serious

THINKING it exists and it being factual are two very different things. 
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:mellow:

Sadly I think you are serious and if you don't have a clue that it exists in this country, I don't think any stats, studies, article links, etc., will change your mind and it would probably be pointless to document what you not aware of and probably won't accept. I just made a cursory Google search and found this about inequality in public schools, but there literally hundreds of other examples:

https://www.thenation.com/article/14-disturbing-stats-about-racial-inequality-american-public-schools/

14 Disturbing Stats About Racial Inequality in American Public Schools

Comprehensive data released Friday by the US Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights offers a striking glance at the extent of racial inequality plaguing the nation’s education system.

Analysts found that black, Latino and Native American students have less access to advanced math and science courses and are more likely to be taught by first-year instructors than white students. Black and Native American students are also suspended and expelled at disproportionate rates.

For the first time in history, the Education Department also examined school discipline at the pre-K level, finding that black students as young as four years old are already facing unequal treatment from school administrators.

The Education Department released four papers with the data, analyzing inequality in school discipline, early learning, college readiness and teacher equity (pdfs). Here’s a breakdown of some of the key findings, taken straight from those papers. During the 2011–12 school year:

Black students accounted for 18 percent of the country’s pre-K enrollment, but made up 48 percent of preschoolers with multiple out-of-school suspensions.

Black students were expelled at three times the rate of white students.

American Indian and Native-Alaskan students represented less than 1 percent of students, but 3 percent of expulsions.

Black girls were suspended at higher rates than all other girls and most boys.

American Indian and Native-Alaskan girls were suspended at higher rates than white boys or girls.

Nearly one in four boys of color, excepting Latino and Asian American students, with disabilities received an out-of-school suspension.

One in five girls of color with disabilities received an out-of-school suspension.

A quarter of the schools with the highest percentage of black and Latino students did not offer Algebra II.

A third of these schools did not offer chemistry.

Less than half of American Indian and Native-Alaskan high school students had access to the full range of math and science courses, which consists of Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, calculus, biology, chemistry and physics.

Black and Latino students accounted for 40 percent of enrollment at schools with gifted programs, but only represented 26 percent of students in such programs.

Black, Latino and Native American students attended schools with higher concentrations of first-year teachers (3 to 4 percent) than white students (1 percent).

Black students were more than three times as likely to attend schools where fewer than 60 percent of teachers meet all state certification and licensure requirements.

Latino students were twice as likely to attend such schools.

 
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packersfan said:
Racial injustice is easily one of the biggest problems in this country. The protests are a reaction to that very real and serious problem.
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ok I don't disagree but who or what is being targeted here ?

we have a gazillion laws to make illegal biases on color of skin, gender, sexual preferences etc etc. we have laws that favor people of color and gender etc that are basically quota's and affirmative actions

what is the root causes for the injustices in this county ?

 
Stealthycat said:
no it isn't

using data and twisting the cause of that data are two different things

is it racist that the majority of NFL RB's are black? it has to be, right? what, 63% of the US is white so about 60% of NFL RB's should be white

right ?
Click to expand...
Yes, there absolutely is a ton of research proving many kinds of racial bias are present in our criminal justice system. Feel free to read up if you so desire; I'm not going to bother providing links for you as you've long since shown that you'll just ignore anything that contradicts your Fox-fueled delusional views of the country.

Nor am I interested in discussing your white RB straw man.

 
Stealthycat said:
when you see someone kneeling instead of standing for the national anthem, that's not misunderstanding anything

don't trivialize people being pissed off at the ignorant kneeling/protesting - don't belittle them and say they don't understand or if they do they're something else.

the players brought this on themselves by choosing their actions - personal responsibility 
Click to expand...
I wasn't trivializing or belittling anyone. But I stand by my point that people upset by what they're seeing may not truly understand what the protests are really about. 

Do you have any black friends? I ask in all seriousness. If you do ask them what the protests are about in their eyes. 

 
Stealthycat said:
ok I don't disagree but who or what is being targeted here ?

we have a gazillion laws to make illegal biases on color of skin, gender, sexual preferences etc etc. we have laws that favor people of color and gender etc that are basically quota's and affirmative actions

what is the root causes for the injustices in this county ?
Click to expand...
I'd say the root cause of racial injustice is racism.

 
Stealthycat said:
and yet, 75 pages here and nobody is talking about the core problems of the United States

instead, its about the stupid remarks of the President, the offensive kneeling by players .......... more division, nobody is talking about the problems

like I said, nobody won in this, everyone lost
Click to expand...
You could not possibly be more wrong.  There are dozens of posts in this thread alone discussing the underlying issues behind the protests. I've personally mentioned it multiple times today. Therefore they are being discussed far more than they would be were it not for the protests.

It may be true that people who disagree with the protests are choosing not to engage on the underlying issues, but they can't be compelled to do so. Maybe they prefer willful ignorance, maybe they just don't wanna hear it from a dumb liberal like me. But there's no doubt that there's more dialogue going on about these issues than there would be if there were no protests, or if the protests were confined to some quiet place where hypersensitive anthem-defenders weren't getting all agitated about it.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
Yes, there absolutely is a ton of research proving many kinds of racial bias are present in our criminal justice system. Feel free to read up if you so desire; I'm not going to bother providing links for you as you've long since shown that you'll just ignore anything that contradicts your Fox-fueled delusional views of the country.

Nor am I interested in discussing your white RB straw man.
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Things today are not what they were in the Democrat Jim Crow days

So you think the judicial system really gets behind closed doors and looks at color of skin ? 

 
packersfan said:
Do you have any black friends? I ask in all seriousness. If you do ask them what the protests are about in their eyes.
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yes and they think its wrong as well - its not how to protest, it is separate from sports and they regretted voting Obama as much as I'm regretting Trump 

 
TobiasFunke said:
You could not possibly be more wrong.  There are dozens of posts in this thread alone discussing the underlying issues behind the protests. I've personally mentioned it multiple times today. Therefore they are being discussed far more than they would be were it not for the protests.
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I didn't re-read 75 pages, maybe I missed the good discussions then

 
Stealthycat said:
I was asking if that was where your thought process was going ?

Who is responsible for this social injustice and systematic bias ?
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That's not really something I can answer here.  Best I can do is recommend the article I usually recommend in response to questions like this. Hopefully you'll be open to reading it (and looking past the overly dramatic title).

 
lakerstan said:
Yes, it fit nicely into that nice safe box that all of us white people would want during our sporting events.  We don't want to be bothered with concerns about things like racial inequality and police brutality when we have a football game to watch.
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The NFL already helped out once when it told the Cowboys they couldn't honor the Dallas police officers murdered last year.  That's not important enough to recognize. :mellow:   

 
Stealthycat said:
no it isn't

using data and twisting the cause of that data are two different things

is it racist that the majority of NFL RB's are black? it has to be, right? what, 63% of the US is white so about 60% of NFL RB's should be white

right ?
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There are no black punters or kickers in the NFL. None. Those positions are probably 90% white with a few Latinos with a soccer background.

Are you seriously going to argue that white guys are better kickers and punters than blacks? If so, what would you base that on? Is this an example of racism in the NFL or perhaps is there another explanation as there may be with the RB position?

 
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