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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (2 Viewers)

Joe Bryant said:
I think lots of people are with you. They want to feel like it's moving forward.

The thing I did like about the Cowboys plan was the way I see it, the people upset about the kneeling were upset as they felt the players were being disrespectful. IMPORTANT POINT - to them it doesn't matter if the player didn't think he was being disrespectful. What they HEARD was disrespect. It felt like a fight. And when you're fighting, a real conversation is very difficult. 

By separating the kneel from the anthem, my hope is the people who'd been mad before may now hear the side of the players kneeling. 

Before we had:

"We're not getting equal treatment" vs "You're disrespecting the US". 

Now it's We're not getting equal treatment - do you want to listen to us? 

Or at least that's a hope. I could be totally off base.
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They were booed anyway.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I don't think the crowd knew what they were going to do and assumed they were kneeling for the anthem
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An interesting tangent here - those people doing the booing, did they then cheer those very same players once the game started? The whole thing is such a fascinating insight into human psyche if you can take a clinical look at it. The immense sway symbolism has - I find it somewhat disturbing myself.

 
Probably also worth pointing out that the crowd that was booing the Cowboys was Cardinals fans.  I seriously doubt the reaction would have been the same at Jerryworld, or if the Cardinals were the ones doing the kneeling.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Probably also worth pointing out that the crowd that was booing the Cowboys was Cardinals fans.  I seriously doubt the reaction would have been the same at Jerryworld, or if the Cardinals were the ones doing the kneeling.
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AZ is kind of like another home game for the Cowboys, particularly when the Cardinals aren't riding high.

 
Joe Bryant said:
No, I don't think it's justified. It's clearly a first amendment right. I'm just not surprised by it.  And I edited mine to be more clear too.
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I think the problem is in the definition of those perpetrating the injustice.  Is it bad cops? Is it all Law Enforcement?  is it some Law Enforcement?  Does it include those that support Law Enforcement?  Is it the "white power structure"?  Is it anybody that does not recognize "white privilege"?

Thats why declaring what it is they are asking for, what their goal is, in specific terms is so important.  With an objective and a solution people can see.  There's an end.  A yard stick.  Right now everything is a jumbled mess.

The fact that it happened in response to Trump makes it even worse.  Now it's Trump vs. the NFL.  That doesn't help.

 
Gr00vus said:
AZ is kind of like another home game for the Cowboys, particularly when the Cardinals aren't riding high.
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I don't think it was that way last night, but even if it was you only need a small portion of an 80,000 person crowd to boo to make it sound like a huge reaction.

 
DirecTV is apparently refunded customer's money for the Sunday Ticket after threats of canceling service or something like that.  I'm sure these are some of the same people who claim we are getting too soft or the p*ssification of America.

 
jonessed said:
I think the problem is in the definition of those perpetrating the injustice.  Is it bad cops? Is it all Law Enforcement?  is it some Law Enforcement?  Does it include those that support Law Enforcement?  Is it the "white power structure"?  Is it anybody that does not recognize "white privilege"?

Thats why declaring what it is they are asking for, what their goal is, in specific terms is so important.  With an objective and a solution people can see.  There's an end.  A yard stick.  Right now everything is a jumbled mess.

The fact that it happened in response to Trump makes it even worse.  Now it's Trump vs. the NFL.  That doesn't help.
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You don't need specificity to start a dialogue and effect change. The 1963 March on Washington was for "Jobs and Freedom."  Doesn't get much vaguer than that.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Probably also worth pointing out that the crowd that was booing the Cowboys was Cardinals fans.  I seriously doubt the reaction would have been the same at Jerryworld, or if the Cardinals were the ones doing the kneeling.
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The Gliiette crowd lustily booed the Patriots that knelt Sunday.

Well not sure if it was lustily but it was loud

 
HellToupee said:
The Gliiette crowd lustily booed the Patriots that knelt Sunday.

Well not sure if it was lustily but it was loud
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And then cheered the heck out of themselves for those sons of #####es when they came back and won that game.

 
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Hawkeye21 said:
Are you saying that you feel there really isn't an issue and that the players are making a big deal out of nothing?
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I'm saying general awareness of the argument isn't the issue.  It's been front-page news for 3+ years.  It's time to aggregate around some clear, measurable arguments and goals.  Without those the movement is just going to continue to float as a source of agitation.  I don't agree that agitating people for the sake of agitating people is a success in of itself.  

 
fantasycurse42 said:
You're good at the condescending stuff.

I enjoyed this thread much more when we got to talk about how terrible a QB Kaep has become. 
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You're obviously not a dumb guy, so I assumed that you were being deliberately obtuse when you said that the protests accomplished absolutely nothing. Hence the snark. If I need to reassess, then I will -- but I'm pretty sure that you know that drawing as much attention as possible is the fundamental goal of the players in question. It literally couldn't have been any more successful as the entire country is talking about it.

 
TobiasFunke said:
You don't need specificity to start a dialogue and effect change. The 1963 March on Washington was for "Jobs and Freedom."  Doesn't get much vaguer than that.
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The dialogue has been going on for years.  BLM isnt new.  This issue has been front page news for a long time.

 
jonessed said:
I'm saying general awareness of the argument isn't the issue.  It's been front-page news for 3+ years.  It's time to aggregate around some clear, measurable arguments and goals.  Without those the movement is just going to continue to float as a source of agitation.  I don't agree that agitating people for the sake of agitating people is a success in of itself.  
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I don't really agree with much of this but I do really like your profile pic.  Not sure if you are a Fallout fan or just like that pic.

 
I find this debate to be interestingly similar to the debate about the washington redskins name. Lots of people say they are offended by it. Lots of people say it isnt meant to be offensive. Lots of people counter that you dont get to decide what is offensive to somebody else. 

 
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail features the following excerpt:

“I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”

 
Coeur de Lion said:
You're not super familiar with stuff like outliers and probability are you?
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No, must be just something else you have on me, because I know your pseudo intellectualism has you thinking your the man.

You ever heard of skewed polls...?  Of course you have.

 
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randall146 said:
Most of the outcry seems to be based on the premise that protesting the anthem is disrespectful to the military.  That's what Trump was saying, and that's why we have people here claiming that every military person they know is for the protests, or against the protests.

My point is that the military seems to have (intentionally or otherwise) co-opted "the flag" and "the anthem" so that military people and the public generally believes that a protest during the anthem is disrespectful to soldier.

But the anthem is not just about the military, as far as I've ever known.  I'm pointing out that even at stadiums they don't (usually) say "please rise and honor our troops," they say "please rise and honor America."

So if rising is honoring America, not the military, kneeling is protesting America, not the military.  They are getting attention by protesting at a highly visible and symbolic time, and then using that attention to say what the protest is about.

I've also noticed that many people critical of the protests have been saying "they have a right to protest but it would be more effective if . . ."  You do here, other posters have too, and Sarah Huckabee was doing it yesterday.  So it seems like you recognize the point of the protests.  So the protests were successful.  Maybe your energy should be spent on addressing the problems being protested, rather than suggesting the way you would have preferred to get the message.
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Hear what you're saying. But can they really protest America without it being taken by many folks as a protest/disrespect of all the things (most of which are good) that make up America? Can they go that general and then expect everyone to be able to easily catch the intended meaning? Based on how many people are very bothered by what is being done, I would say the answer is no.

I've heard it said several times the players are not doing this to disrespect the country/military/etc yet they choose pretty much the only time people would see what they are doing as being exactly that. Presumably, one of the goals of this effort is to gain support from people who may not already be on board. Why do something ambiguous enough to risk angering many of those folks and driving them away? That doesn't make sense to me. If they want to use their games as a platform, why not do something immediately before the opening kickoff? Certainly, that is a highly visible time, no? If they do something then, its likely it gets a lot of attention and people would ask what its all about but nobody takes it as a slap in the face. Isn't that more likely to further the stated cause?

As for the second bolded, maybe you should spend your energy addressing the problems being protested and less time presuming to know what I am doing about it.

 
jonessed said:
I think the problem is in the definition of those perpetrating the injustice.  Is it bad cops? Is it all Law Enforcement?  is it some Law Enforcement?  Does it include those that support Law Enforcement?  Is it the "white power structure"?  Is it anybody that does not recognize "white privilege"?

Thats why declaring what it is they are asking for, what their goal is, in specific terms is so important.  With an objective and a solution people can see.  There's an end.  A yard stick.  Right now everything is a jumbled mess.

The fact that it happened in response to Trump makes it even worse.  Now it's Trump vs. the NFL.  That doesn't help.
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cripes, a poster keeping his head when all those around him are losing theirs.  good job.  Need more of this.  IMO

 
thatguythere said:
Yep, who's it going to be Joe Biden :lmao:
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I hope not, personally, as I'm sick of 3rd way Democrats, but he would have destroyed Trump in 2016 and will crush him in 2020 if that's what happens. Hillary, as bad as she was, won the popular vote by 3 million, and lost the election by a handful of votes in a handful of states that she didn't even campaign in. Trump is President right now not because he really won anything, but because Hillary lost by being arrogant and going for the "mandate win" and campaigning and spending money in places like Texas and Arizona rather than just being smart and shoring up states like Michigan and Wisconsin.

ProTip: Hillary isn't running again in 2020, so glllll with your reality TV conman and his 30% approval rating.

 
jonessed said:
I think the problem is in the definition of those perpetrating the injustice.  Is it bad cops? Is it all Law Enforcement?  is it some Law Enforcement?  Does it include those that support Law Enforcement?  Is it the "white power structure"?  Is it anybody that does not recognize "white privilege"?

Thats why declaring what it is they are asking for, what their goal is, in specific terms is so important.  With an objective and a solution people can see.  There's an end.  A yard stick.  Right now everything is a jumbled mess.

The fact that it happened in response to Trump makes it even worse.  Now it's Trump vs. the NFL.  That doesn't help.
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I think one of the difficulties in this discussion is that we expect everyone at the bottom of the ladder who has an issue to be chief cook and bottle washer.  I don't expect Colin Kaepernick to come up with the solution to racial bias in law enforcement any more than I expect him to be able to tell me a decent cologne or the square root of -1.  It's just not his area.  He's a voice, and one with a lot of exposure, but I'd expect a prominent sociologist, or religious leader, or community leader to be able to do that.  Kaepernick - and athletes like him - are doing the part they're most capable of doing, which is shining a light on the issue.  Some other group needs to have more specific stated goals and objectives.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
I hope not, personally, as I'm sick of 3rd way Democrats, but he would have destroyed Trump in 2016 and will crush him in 2020 if that's what happens. Hillary, as bad as she was, won the popular vote by 3 million, and lost the election by a handful of votes in a handful of states that she didn't even campaign in. Trump is President right now not because he really won anything, but because Hillary lost by being arrogant and going for the "mandate win" and campaigning and spending money in places like Texas and Arizona rather than just being smart and shoring up states like Michigan and Wisconsin.

ProTip: Hillary isn't running again in 2020, so glllll with your reality TV conman and his 30% approval rating.
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Trump didn't really win anything..... :lmao:   Only 83% of the counties in the USA

Enjoy your alternate reality.....

 
It's kind of like when football players wear pink for breast cancer awareness month. 

I don't think many of them will get personally killed by breast cancer.  I don't think most of them understand what causes breast cancer. I don't think any of them can adequately explain the processes by which we treat breast cancer. 

I do think their part is to raise awareness and say "to heck with breast cancer."

Same kind of thing. 

 
Henry Ford said:
I think one of the difficulties in this discussion is that we expect everyone at the bottom of the ladder who has an issue to be chief cook and bottle washer.  I don't expect Colin Kaepernick to come up with the solution to racial bias in law enforcement any more than I expect him to be able to tell me a decent cologne or the square root of -1.  It's just not his area.  He's a voice, and one with a lot of exposure, but I'd expect a prominent sociologist, or religious leader, or community leader to be able to do that.  Kaepernick - and athletes like him - are doing the part they're most capable of doing, which is shining a light on the issue.  Some other group needs to have more specific stated goals and objectives.
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The athletes protesting are the one's with the spotlight. Perhaps if they can't articulate their goals and objectives clearly they should hire someone who can.

They don't have to of course.  Maybe it's just  meant to be a general show of frustration with no goals in mind.

 
jonessed said:
The athletes protesting are the one's with the spotlight. Perhaps if they can't articulate their goals and objectives clearly they should hire someone who can.

They don't have to of course.  Maybe it's just  meant to be a general show of frustration with no goals in mind.
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See my post right above yours.  Their goal is "stop it."  Like "stop breast cancer."

That's about as much as I'd expect to get out of a group that gets punched in the head for a living.  And it has value. 

 
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