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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (6 Viewers)

Stealthycat said:
as wrong as I often am huh?   :thumbup:
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Pretty much. And not talking about your opinion itself, but rather the fact that you base it on obvious falsehoods that you've picked up from the right wing media, and then continue to cling to those falsehoods when presented with evidence that they are, in fact, untrue. It's happened countless times in multiple threads.

Still, your willingness to engage is appreciated, as is your willingness to not blindly defend everything that this administration does.

 
randall146 said:
The talking points of "they could make their point more effectively" and "if they're so offended, why aren't they out in the community?" are so disingenuous. 

Both talking points inherently mean you understand what the protest is about.  If you get it, then talk about it. Agree or disagree or have a nuanced opinion. The talking points are just a diversion tactic - pretending to be sympathetic while refusing to actually address the issue. Shooting the messenger instead of dealing with the message. 
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My favorite is the “I didn’t pay for tickets to watch politics “.  Last time I checked...shouldn’t you be standing facing the flag rather than the bench area of the field?  Otherwise aren’t you disrespecting the flag and anthem?

 
Let's get something straight: Protesting is SUPPOSED to cause a stir. That's how they are effective.

That's why people gather in large groups and march down city streets. It stops traffic, forcing people to ask "Hey, what are these people doing out here?".

If Kaepernick simply made a few twitter posts about police brutality, most of us would never know and there certainly wouldn't be an 100=page thread about it.

Instead, he knelt for the anthem. Which caused people to ask, why is that guy kneeling? Then we find out he wants to raise awareness about police brutality against African Americans. So his protest did exactly what it was meant to do.

 
Skoo said:
Let's get something straight: Protesting is SUPPOSED to cause a stir. That's how they are effective.

That's why people gather in large groups and march down city streets. It stops traffic, forcing people to ask "Hey, what are these people doing out here?".

If Kaepernick simply made a few twitter posts about police brutality, most of us would never know and there certainly wouldn't be an 100=page thread about it.

Instead, he knelt for the anthem. Which caused people to ask, why is that guy kneeling? Then we find out he wants to raise awareness about police brutality against African Americans. So his protest did exactly what it was meant to do.
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It's also not surprising that those who don't feel a need to protest will be annoyed by those protesting because they don't necessarily agree that the problem exists, or it doesn't affect them.  Their comfy world they thought was just fine - well now, there are people standing outside it, walking over that line, and saying it's a problem...it's not as great as you think it is for all of us!

 
Skoo said:
Let's get something straight: Protesting is SUPPOSED to cause a stir. That's how they are effective
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so with all the city riots and protests, with the campus burning, with the highways being blocked .... all that was effective and we're a better country today than a year ago?

you don't believe that, I don't believe that .... everyone is more divided today than they have been in a decade

 
adonis said:
It's also not surprising that those who don't feel a need to protest will be annoyed by those protesting because they don't necessarily agree that the problem exists, or it doesn't affect them.  Their comfy world they thought was just fine - well now, there are people standing outside it, walking over that line, and saying it's a problem...it's not as great as you think it is for all of us!
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I don't feel the need to disrespect and dishonor our country, veterans or people .......... I don't see the need to burn and riot in the streets and college campuses or to block interstate traffic    

Nothing positive comes from doing that. NOTHING

Its sad that you appear to support those things adonis .... I guess murdering white cops was a good thing too, you know, to get their point across? 

 
Stealthycat said:
so with all the city riots and protests, with the campus burning, with the highways being blocked .... all that was effective and we're a better country today than a year ago?

you don't believe that, I don't believe that .... everyone is more divided today than they have been in a decade
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Rioting and burning stuff is not a peaceful protest.

Ever hear of the Vietnam War? Segregation?

Both were ended in large part due to peaceful protests.

 
Stealthycat said:
so with all the city riots and protests, with the campus burning, with the highways being blocked .... all that was effective and we're a better country today than a year ago?

you don't believe that, I don't believe that .... everyone is more divided today than they have been in a decade
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This is 100% on the mark.

The biggest problem is Trump is doing everything in his power to fuel that divide and push people further and further apart. Which is the exact opposite of his current job description.

Culture War FTW 

 
Coeur de Lion said:
If that were the case, wouldn't I be dismissing you as a troll and putting you on ignore, since we obviously disagree. The guy I was referring to in that post is someone with probably a dozen accounts that has never engaged in any meaningful discussion with any of them. He's obviously here to stir the pot and nothing else, hence the need for so many accounts to dodge the bannings and continue his useless nonsense.
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Drink

 
Stealthycat said:
so with all the city riots and protests, with the campus burning, with the highways being blocked .... all that was effective and we're a better country today than a year ago?

you don't believe that, I don't believe that .... everyone is more divided today than they have been in a decade
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Just for reference, tons of folks complained about the peaceful protests of the civil war era.  Even when there was very little violence coming from protestors, people still didn't like protestors...because it disrupts things, it makes them feel like they're wrong, or may be wrong, and that's not ok.  

When you have a people who are comfortable with the way things are, and another group comes in and says they're wrong, and dont' understand how bad things are for another group, people don't like to hear that...no matter how the message is being delivered.  

Certainly, violent deliveries are almost always wrong, but when folks get all up in arms about kneeling on the sidelines at NFL games, talking about preventing players from being able to do this...you start narrowing down the ways folks can protest and have their voices heard.

And as you continue down that path, the quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable".  The point is that this is peaceful protest...the more these get shut down, the more likely you see things like riots and other violent protests because people feel like their voices aren't being heard.  (Not ignoring that a lot of rioters are just criminals in search of opportunity, but not all of them)

 
Stealthycat said:
I'm confused now on what the protests are for

are they to bring awareness to issues or to give the middle finger to Trump ? sounds like its in retaliation to Trump now

I was talking to my brother this morning .... it seems in today's world if you want to protest, you pick an action that causes the most offensive, hurts the most feelings, pisses the most people off ......... what a fantastic way to bring unity huh ?
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A lot of it now is to show unity with their player brothers fo being called an SOB by the president and the vitriol thrown theor way by some fans.

 
Stealthycat said:
adonis said:
It's also not surprising that those who don't feel a need to protest will be annoyed by those protesting because they don't necessarily agree that the problem exists, or it doesn't affect them.  Their comfy world they thought was just fine - well now, there are people standing outside it, walking over that line, and saying it's a problem...it's not as great as you think it is for all of us!
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I don't feel the need to disrespect and dishonor our country, veterans or people .......... I don't see the need to burn and riot in the streets and college campuses or to block interstate traffic    

Nothing positive comes from doing that. NOTHING

Its sad that you appear to support those things adonis .... I guess murdering white cops was a good thing too, you know, to get their point across? 
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When you put words in other people's mouths, instead of actually listening to what they're saying, you're not engaged in a dialogue but rather a monologue geared to convince yourself you're right.

No one is kneeling in an attempt to dishonor our country, veterans or people.  No one is suggesting murdering cops was a good thing.

You're setting up strawmen and lighting them on fire and claiming victory.  Folks have been very clear about why they're kneeling, and why what they're doing is not to disrespect veterans or the country or anything...it's to draw attention to injustice in society.  

This is easy...all you have to do is listen and try to understand why people are doing what they're doing.  Don't let Fox News, or Rush, or InfoWars, or whatever give you this information...go to the source, listen to those protesting, read what they've written, watch interviews.  It's easy, but not as easy as believing lies that make you feel like your side is the righteous, God-fearing, america loving, cop supporting side.

 
Mile High said:
What he said should be protested since he's suppose to uphold the Constitution, not demand people following his interpretation of it.
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ahhh 

self justification to protesting, what you see as a valid reason others might not see ....... same as what you see offensive others might not. 

some people see rioting and burning their own neighborhoods as perfectly acceptable protests, or blocking highways or threatening violence on college campuses etc

I'm serious - the alt-left (or whatever name we are using for them) are perfectly justified in what they do, that's how their minds work, just like Trump thinks what he's doing is ok, and the NFL players think they're ok in what they're doing and fans boycotting the NFL? they're justified too, right ?

 
Stealthycat said:
so with all the city riots and protests, with the campus burning, with the highways being blocked .... all that was effective and we're a better country today than a year ago?

you don't believe that, I don't believe that .... everyone is more divided today than they have been in a decade
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As mentioned earlier, change takes time. Its also ok for protests to be violent.

 
adonis said:
This is easy...all you have to do is listen and try to understand why people are doing what they're doing.  Don't let Fox News, or Rush, or InfoWars, or whatever give you this information...go to the source, listen to those protesting, read what they've written, watch interviews.  It's easy, but not as easy as believing lies that make you feel like your side is the righteous, God-fearing, america loving, cop supporting side.
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Pretty much this. We know what they are protesting for.

 
Stealthycat said:
true - but its the protesting that goes in hand in hand with the other protesting - you know, like the one poster said, you gotta stir things up to get attention right ?
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It's really pretty simple: anyone who breaks the law in the process of protesting should be arrested and prosecuted. If they feel that the price is worth paying, so be it. Anyone who doesn't break the law shouldn't.

Re: the NFL players, there is a pretty huge difference between patriotism and blind jingoistic nationalism, and the backlash against the players falls, almost exclusively, into the latter category. How many of the people crying about this being disrespectful actually served in our military? How many of them stand up at home when watching a game when the anthem is played? Come on...

 
adonis said:
And as you continue down that path, the quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable".  The point is that this is peaceful protest...the more these get shut down, the more likely you see things like riots and other violent protests because people feel like their voices aren't being heard.  (Not ignoring that a lot of rioters are just criminals in search of opportunity, but not all of them)
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I see what you're saying and the NFL players are peaceful in their demonstrations yes - but highly offensive to a lot of people

there are massive negatives that come with what they're doing - you see that don't you ?

 
Stealthycat said:
I don't feel the need to disrespect and dishonor our country, veterans or people .......... I don't see the need to burn and riot in the streets and college campuses or to block interstate traffic    

Nothing positive comes from doing that. NOTHING

Its sad that you appear to support those things adonis .... I guess murdering white cops was a good thing too, you know, to get their point across? 
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You don't feel the need to protest anything because you're life seems to be unaffected by any injustices.  Instead you get to sit on the internet all day with us and discuss topics and go fishing.  It's almost as if you've got an awesome life and tons to be thankful for.  Not everyone is as lucky though and even though the players are very lucky with what they have now many of them were not always so lucky and they know plenty of people who are not.  Just as you feel it's your duty to stand for the anthem they feel it's their duty to give the unfortunate a voice and stand up for them.

 
Stealthycat said:
ahhh 

self justification to protesting, what you see as a valid reason others might not see ....... same as what you see offensive others might not. 

some people see rioting and burning their own neighborhoods as perfectly acceptable protests, or blocking highways or threatening violence on college campuses etc

I'm serious - the alt-left (or whatever name we are using for them) are perfectly justified in what they do, that's how their minds work, just like Trump thinks what he's doing is ok, and the NFL players think they're ok in what they're doing and fans boycotting the NFL? they're justified too, right ?
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I have no problem with what the players are doing or with fans who get upset and want to boycott the NFL for it. The President is not suppose to be calling for the firing of people for exercising their rights. He is in the wrong on that. 

 
Phil Elliott said:
As mentioned earlier, change takes time. Its also ok for protests to be violent.
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Disagree pretty strongly here. Not only is violence far less effective than non-violent protest as it cedes the moral high ground, but also largely innocent people end up getting hurt for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyone breaking the law, no matter how much may I sympathize with their cause, should be arrested and prosecuted.

 
sho nuff said:
I’d say it was Trumps fault that this became a bigger deal than it was.
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I agree with this.  The anthem protest was a discussion/issue prior to Trump amplifying it, however once he chose his side it's like people neatly fit into their pre-supposed labels and were immediately "outraged" on both sides.  

 
I'm curious how many of the people who say they are upset because this protesting is ruining their viewing experience are on Facebook, Twitter and forums like this the entire game.  As if they are so engaged at all times that they can not be bothered by politics for a few minutes yet they'll be on their phone of computer messing around.

 
Stealthycat said:
adonis said:
And as you continue down that path, the quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable".  The point is that this is peaceful protest...the more these get shut down, the more likely you see things like riots and other violent protests because people feel like their voices aren't being heard.  (Not ignoring that a lot of rioters are just criminals in search of opportunity, but not all of them)
Click to expand...


I see what you're saying and the NFL players are peaceful in their demonstrations yes - but highly offensive to a lot of people

there are massive negatives that come with what they're doing - you see that don't you ?
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I imagine you're unfamiliar with the need to protest in any situation, because what you describe is the essence of ALL forms of protest.

Any form of protest is almost by definition offensive to a lot of people.

Any form of protest has massive negatives that come with it.

These facts don't have anything to do with whether protests were necessary.

How many people were offended that Rosa Parks broke the law and sat on a bus where she wasn't supposed to sit?  How many folks were pissed that black folks were going to white schools?  How many folks were pissed at black folks sitting in and lunch counters where whites said they weren't allowed?

Why couldn't these folks, and all the others who have protested through the centuries, have just remained quiet, not rocked the boat, not made people upset, not offended folks?

BECAUSE IF THEY HAD DONE THAT NOTHING WOULD'VE CHANGED.

Seriously StealthyCat, I don't know if you mean well or not, but it's fairly clear you haven't given the concept of protesting much thought beyond how much of an annoyance it is to the people with no gripe.

 
Dan Hopper‏Verified account @DanHopp 16h16 hours ago

~THE CHICAGO MENTIONER~

WIFE: You forgot to pick up the kids??

CHICAGO MENTIONER: I don't see how that would've stopped shootings in Chicago

 
Stealthycat said:
I agree with the core issue - kneeling is offensive ........... I almost 100% agree with the way he tried to convey it
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Since you ignored this yesterday:

"Do you honestly think that Trump himself gets this at all? I don't seem to recall you being horrified when he disparaged John McCain's service record or attacked the Gold Star Khan family during the DNC. You're outraged over a bunch of 20-something athletes quietly protesting a legitimate issue and were totally OK with a Presidential candidate's blatant disrespect to genuine heros and now that he's President using these protests as a deliberate wedge issue to score political points with folks who don't know any better. Just awful, and another perfect illustration of how we ended up with this clown in the first place."

 
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