STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The Niners aren't winning anything imo. They aren't getting better then they have the past two years.
Window is closed.
Window is closed.
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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Awesome
- Start date
Ok, time to shut this one down. The level of ignorance and lunacy displayed in the last 3 posts should just about kill any reasonable debate here.
To close it out, yes Kap sucks, they would have 2 rings with Romo already and they are trading their starting QB for a rookie or one year stop gap so they can appease Harbaugh and save some cap space. Makes a lot of sense. I'm on board.
To close it out, yes Kap sucks, they would have 2 rings with Romo already and they are trading their starting QB for a rookie or one year stop gap so they can appease Harbaugh and save some cap space. Makes a lot of sense. I'm on board.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Nobody's saying he sucks. But he's not top five and paying him $20m to be just above average doesn't seem to make much sense.
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Gandalf
Footballguy
I wonder where Kap will play after this season? And who SF brings in? I doubt they sign him to that type of contract. Overall I think this could be bad for both. Kap has talent around him on the niners and SF can go deep into the playoffs with him. We don't know how far they would have gotten with another QB. We don't have that answer until 2015...
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I think he's a lot better than just above average, especially in the playoffs and I still don't think he's reach his full upside which is top 5 in terms of potential.
But let's just assume for a minute that what you say is true and he's just above average. After Foles, Wilson, RG3, Luck and Cam do new deals $20million will be fairly close to what an average QB will get and by close I mean within $2-3 million if not less.
Here is a current list of QB's who have got massive contracts recently. Some signed years ago before the salaries spiked and before the salary cap just increased so it's only going up. So not a lot of $20+ million guys but a few and some that are really close. Guys like Eli, Rivers, Rothlisberger did new deals around 2009 and all were deals that "broke the bank" at the time. Today those deals run roughly $15-17 million per for those guys but if they were redoing those deals now would they'd be getting close to max QB pay like they did in 2009. (Assuming they were 2009 versions of themselves)
Peyton
Brady
Brees
Romo
Cutler
Ben
Rivers
Stafford
Eli
Flacco
Ryan
All of these guys on this list got paid max QB dollars at the time of their deals or like Cutler relatively close at what amounts to around $18 million the first 3 years.
Barring injury all of these QB's are about to join them:
Cam
Wilson
Luck
RG3
Foles
Not counting Kaepernick that's 16 QB's who figure to have signed massive extensions that were relatively close to $20million annually or were signed years ago for what at the time was top QB dollar. If we considered Kaepernick just average among his peers he'd be QB16-17 and that alone puts him in current salary range of a Cutler type deal but again these numbers should spike up with the cap increase and influx of new QB deals about to be done.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I agree with both those statements. He might be a very good QB.
I guess that's the gamble teams have to make these days. I just look at what the Flacco contract did to the Ravens as a template that I consider a bad move.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Probably shouldn't judge that deal based on one rough transition year. Ozzie knows what he is doing and he and Harbuagh should turn things around quickly, IMO.
Regardless of personal opinions on his current talent level / future potential the market is set and that's the real driver behind what he's going to get paid.
Unless teams can find a way to keep replacing their starting QB’s every few years with rookies who perform well enough early on to keep / put them in contention they are eventually going to spend a good chunk of their cap on a QB whether he is currently in the top 5 or just slightly above average.
B-Deep
Footballguy
to be fair they did win a super bowl which caused them to overpay Flacco
i think if the niners are told they'll win a super bowl this year but it will mean over paying Kaep going forward that they'll take it in a second
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
PFF posted some interesting tweets that mention Kap.
-----------------------------------------
Pro Football Focus@PFF4 hrs
QB Rating with play action: Kaepernick 116.4, Newton 111.2. Without play action: Kaepernick 81.6, Newton 79.3
-----------------------------------------
Pro Football Focus@PFF3 hrs
Most dropbacks from under center in 2013: Palmer 262, Brees 250, Brady 232, Luck 205, Kaepernick 192, Wilson 180
== (To compare the above)
Pro Football Focus@PFF3 hrs
Most dropbacks from shotgun in 2013: Flacco 586, Peyton 581, Stafford 571, Ryan 545, Rivers 540, Tannehill 535
-----------------------------------------
Pro Football Focus@PFF4 hrs
QB Rating with play action: Kaepernick 116.4, Newton 111.2. Without play action: Kaepernick 81.6, Newton 79.3
-----------------------------------------
Pro Football Focus@PFF3 hrs
Most dropbacks from under center in 2013: Palmer 262, Brees 250, Brady 232, Luck 205, Kaepernick 192, Wilson 180
== (To compare the above)
Pro Football Focus@PFF3 hrs
Most dropbacks from shotgun in 2013: Flacco 586, Peyton 581, Stafford 571, Ryan 545, Rivers 540, Tannehill 535
It’s definitely a gamble. Niners could also let him play this year at his current rate and then I believe use the tag on him next year if they are still unsettled on his future. That would give them two more years to make a run without risking as much cap space. Though they will have to weigh that against what the future cost might be should they decide at that point he is their franchise QB moving forward.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
OK, I'll bite.GordonGekko said:
Where is this coming from?
The reason I ask is because it makes bizzaro-sense on many levels.
SF can sign someone like Luke McCowan short-term and draft a rook in the second round and develop them and not have to pony-up $20 million a year for a guy who isn't clicking on 60% of his passing attempts especially if they have reservations because I'm sure they are crunching the numbers and have looked around the league and see teams with highly paid QBs who are pressed-up against the salary cap every year.
Also for the Browns, Kap makes sense. They'd simply draft someone but it doesn't look like anyone of the top-three/four QBs in this draft are worthy so paying the pick and the dollars for Kap makes sense.
So where are these rumors coming from?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Hmmnnnnnnnnnn right now, live on Cleveland Browns Daily they are talking about Jimmy Garrapollo's Pro Day and only two NFL HCs were in attendence.
One, Houston's O'brien. Makes sense if they are contemplating Jadeveon Clowney with the first pick.
The other NFL head coach who was there and who seemed very-interested according Yahoo Sports who was there was San Francisco HC Jim Harbaugh. Hmnnnnnnnn.
LINK to the program. They post the shows typically a day later so you can find this in the last half hour of the program.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/audio/Cleveland_Browns_Daily_LIVE/2a0cc2c2-5d29-4b02-ac5b-b8b07fc17475
Makes ya wonder why Harbaugh would be soo interested in Garrapollo.
No mention of the rumor above but this is the first I had heard of it.
Made bizzaro-sense but now it seems like dots could start being connected, like Harbaugh being one of two NFL HCs to attend Jimmy Garrappolo's Pro Day where he showed keen interest in the young man.
One, Houston's O'brien. Makes sense if they are contemplating Jadeveon Clowney with the first pick.
The other NFL head coach who was there and who seemed very-interested according Yahoo Sports who was there was San Francisco HC Jim Harbaugh. Hmnnnnnnnn.
LINK to the program. They post the shows typically a day later so you can find this in the last half hour of the program.
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/audio/Cleveland_Browns_Daily_LIVE/2a0cc2c2-5d29-4b02-ac5b-b8b07fc17475
Makes ya wonder why Harbaugh would be soo interested in Garrapollo.
No mention of the rumor above but this is the first I had heard of it.
Made bizzaro-sense but now it seems like dots could start being connected, like Harbaugh being one of two NFL HCs to attend Jimmy Garrappolo's Pro Day where he showed keen interest in the young man.
While said scenario above is fun, I think that's more foreshadowing of Harbaugh being somewhere else in the league in 2015 than anything to do with Kaepernick?
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B-Deep
Footballguy
When they have 3 straight championship appearances and a super bowl appearance and have their QB on the hook dirt cheap for another season I just don;t see them trading him. If you are unsure make him play out the season and decide after, you'll get first crack at him if you want to pay him, if not he walks. If you trade him now with no answer you risk starting a rebuild for no reason after 3 straight successful seasons.
Now next year, yeah if you don;t want to pay him you'll have to start over at that spot. But why force it a year before you have to.
just not buying it
Now next year, yeah if you don;t want to pay him you'll have to start over at that spot. But why force it a year before you have to.
just not buying it
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I'm starting to see why SF would consider making a deal now.
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/report_colin_kaepernick_will_get_at_least_20_million_a_year/15933020?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15933020
Report: Colin Kaepernick will get at least $20 million a yearAccording to Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports, Colin Kaepernick won’t make $18 million per season for his next contract. Instead, he’ll make at least $20 million per year.
So I’ll let you in on a little secret: The 49ers already know this. Unequivocally. Their negotiations with their young franchise quarterback are still in their infancy, but they are quite aware there aren’t any bargain deals to be had here. Far from it. Talks with Kaepernick, if they truly get off the ground, will begin at $20 million a year.
As I first reported back in January, Kaepernick is perfectly willing to gamble on himself, a la Joe Flacco, and will play out his rookie contract if need be (he is signed through 2014). He won’t be doing any “bridge contracts” or “band-aid deals,” and I can tell you that an extension in the range of the Romos and Cutlers and Staffords simply is not happening.
I can’t imagine that Kaepernick is really worth $20 million a season. But then again he is a young quarterback that is learning and can only get better as time goes on.
We also have t realize that the 49ers aren’t going to let him walk and then start all over again with another quarterback, so they make something work.
=================
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/what_is_colin_kaepernick_worth/15932933?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15932933
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/49ers_hold_private_work_out_with_jimmy_garoppolo/15924854?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15924854
49ERS HOLD PRIVATE WORKOUT WITH JIMMY GAROPPOLO
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/report_colin_kaepernick_will_get_at_least_20_million_a_year/15933020?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15933020
Report: Colin Kaepernick will get at least $20 million a yearAccording to Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports, Colin Kaepernick won’t make $18 million per season for his next contract. Instead, he’ll make at least $20 million per year.
So I’ll let you in on a little secret: The 49ers already know this. Unequivocally. Their negotiations with their young franchise quarterback are still in their infancy, but they are quite aware there aren’t any bargain deals to be had here. Far from it. Talks with Kaepernick, if they truly get off the ground, will begin at $20 million a year.
As I first reported back in January, Kaepernick is perfectly willing to gamble on himself, a la Joe Flacco, and will play out his rookie contract if need be (he is signed through 2014). He won’t be doing any “bridge contracts” or “band-aid deals,” and I can tell you that an extension in the range of the Romos and Cutlers and Staffords simply is not happening.
I can’t imagine that Kaepernick is really worth $20 million a season. But then again he is a young quarterback that is learning and can only get better as time goes on.
We also have t realize that the 49ers aren’t going to let him walk and then start all over again with another quarterback, so they make something work.
=================
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/what_is_colin_kaepernick_worth/15932933?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15932933
Confirmation of what was said on Cleveland Browns Daily podcast. Can't cut and paste but its a small blurb that stated the Niners showed great interest in Garoppolo and that O'brien and Harbaugh were the only NFL HCs in attendence.
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/49ers_hold_private_work_out_with_jimmy_garoppolo/15924854?linksrc=story_team_san_francisco_49ers_auto_module_head_15924854
49ERS HOLD PRIVATE WORKOUT WITH JIMMY GAROPPOLO
Mr. Irrelevant
IBL Representative
Up until a couple weeks ago - when early indications leaked out about the dramatic rise in the cap expected over the next 3 years - I'd have said I fully expect a couple of franchises to try this exact tack.
There aren't 17-18 elite QBs in the NFL. There just aren't. Does it really make more sense to pay the 17th-best guy $18M a year than to find some combination of young guys / journeymen at QB and leave yourself $15M+ a year to bolster the other 21 positions?
I'm trying to decide whether it's more foolish to pay the 17th-best QB top-5 money, or pay a guy with 1.5 seasons under his belt top-5 money on the come in the hope that he'll eventually be a top-5 QB.
B-Deep
Footballguy
the difference between you and the article is you think Kaep is not that good, the article seems to say his sample size is too small
that's a big difference
Mr. Irrelevant
IBL Representative
Far from it. I've been a Kaep defender here and elsewhere, including earlier in this thread. I think he absolutely has the potential to be a top-5 QB in this league but the sample size is too small to be confident (unlike, say, Matt Stafford, for who I'd lean much more towards the "17th-best QB getting top-5 money" view).
I also think it's crazy to pay either set of guys $20M a year.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
That is the rub.
This guy is marching towards a payday with a definite deadline where something has to give so that is why I am not dismissing chatter of a possible trade that would send shockwaves through the league.
SF is not unloading him this year. If they are serous about moving on, they'll let him play this next year out, draft someone in the second-third round this year, and franchise and trade Kaepernick next offseason. But there's no way try cut bait this offseason after only 1.5 seasons and a series of fantastic playoff performances.Bracie Smathers said:
Wingnut
Footballguy
Annnnnd queue the 4th quarter turnover talk...
drummer
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You don't think Young and Montana are at least as good as Brees, Manning, Brady, and...Stafford?
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Unlike your boy, Montana and Young can make it to their second progression without tucking and running.
Gandalf
Footballguy
okay, before we lock the thread, can we get back to Kaepernick talk??? It seems like we have three camps:
1. Those who have seen enough to think he will not win a super bowl with SF, and hence, do not sign him to a $20MM a year deal
2. People who think he is good enough and could still develop into a top QB or not, but either way, that the going rate for good QBs dictates signing him to a $20MM per year deal
3. Those who think he is average or worse and do not think he should be signed at any price.
I vote for option 2. I mean in today's NFL I think players never see all the money anyway if they suck. Then you just have to deal with the cap ramifications of that or you renegotiate the contract telling Kap that he will get cut if he does not restructure.
1. Those who have seen enough to think he will not win a super bowl with SF, and hence, do not sign him to a $20MM a year deal
2. People who think he is good enough and could still develop into a top QB or not, but either way, that the going rate for good QBs dictates signing him to a $20MM per year deal
3. Those who think he is average or worse and do not think he should be signed at any price.
I vote for option 2. I mean in today's NFL I think players never see all the money anyway if they suck. Then you just have to deal with the cap ramifications of that or you renegotiate the contract telling Kap that he will get cut if he does not restructure.
drummer
Footballguy
For a guy who thinks he knows a lot about football, my guess is you weren't born yet during Young's early 49er career.
drummer
Footballguy
I'm trying not to be smarmy here due to the Mods having itchy trigger fingers, but even they would find that a dumb question to ask.
Let me put it this way: they both weren't out there chucking the rock in meaningless quarters and games to get to the 5000 yard passing mark like Brees, Manning, and Brady are. Stafford on the other hand is forced to. Now I dunno if you realized this yet, but you are putting Stafford in the same sentence with all of those other QBs. You might as well toss Marino - who threw for over 5000 yards in 1984 - in there just for kicks to show how much the game has changed since.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Drummer. You couldn't be following the argument less if you tried.
drummer
Footballguy
If you're trying to make an argument, then you need to go back to argument school.
drummer
Footballguy
I'm in the camp of "It's a good thing Gideon Yu got all those investors to fund Levi's Stadium before both Harbaugh and Kaepernick left town".
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
You've somehow managed to top George Costanza's jerk store insult. Impressive.drummer said:
drummer
Footballguy
It's more insulting to place Stafford amongst HOF QBs because he throws for a lot of yards. Not because he won anything yet.
cstu
Footballguy
2 is the correct answer. I'm not very hopeful that he becomes a great QB, but few would argue that he's not above average. At the very least he's good enough to give the team a chance to win a SB. The price on a decent QB is steep these days, but the options besides paying him aren't any more attractive.Gandalf said:
BaBastage
Footballguy
As I mentioned earlier, I think Kaep talent wise at least on par with Romo/Stafford/Cutler.
But I'm still choking on $20 million.
Part of me is hoping that market forces kick in over the next few years, and we see more teams going with the young, rookie-contract quarterbacks, and spread the dollars around with the other veterans to bolster the team.
I'm sure many NFL teams are number crunching that question. What's better: A star QB versus a more balanced team? And, unfortunately, what sells more tickets and Jerseys?
But I'm still choking on $20 million.
Part of me is hoping that market forces kick in over the next few years, and we see more teams going with the young, rookie-contract quarterbacks, and spread the dollars around with the other veterans to bolster the team.
I'm sure many NFL teams are number crunching that question. What's better: A star QB versus a more balanced team? And, unfortunately, what sells more tickets and Jerseys?
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Gandalf
Footballguy
In my salary cap keeper league, FF is mirroring real NFL. I have to decide whether to sign Kap prior to the start of the 2015 season. It's similar to real NFL contracts where you have a couple years of cheap money then need to sign players to a veteran deal which are much more expensive. Not saying this is how SF is feeling but I can say that the jury is still out before I sign him to a lengthy and expensive contract. I think this is a make or break year for him. Why lock him up now? Let's see how he grows this year. Then if the niners - and I - need to sign Kap to an expensive deal because he played lights out then so be it. That's a good problem to have. The safest course for SF is to wait.
drummer
Footballguy
He has another season to prove he worth that, and it's more a perfect storm of both he and Harbaugh being joined at the hip as far as contracts going forward. Harbaugh has proven he could win despite the QB, but the talent level will erode a bit. It's a matter who who you trust with the talent. Could Kaep win with lesser talent and without Harbaugh? Can Harbaugh win without Kaep and more talent? Can the 49ers win without either?
It may seem crazy to think of those questions, but from what it seems over at 49er HQ, they think they can win without both.
B-Deep
Footballguy
drummer
Footballguy
In fairness to Singletary, he did give the team an identity that still holds today as far as being physical. He also bullied Baalke from drafting Jimmy Clausen.
B-Deep
Footballguy
he also didn't win much
they have a combination that does now, if i were them i would stick with it. I have no doubt this team is capable of winning a super bowl with Kaep and Harbaugh. that does not mean they will, sometimes great teams don't win super bowls, there is no gurantee. But they seem capable of it. Get rid of those two and it's a giant crap shoot.
i am not sure that means you pay Colin $20mil, but i am sure it means you give him this season, and if required Franchise him next to delay final decision on that for 2 seasons. If you don;t know if he is worth it then you never will.
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drummer
Footballguy
The 49ers has not had a good QB and a good HC combo since the days of the Dynasty era. You'd figure with all of Jed's promises to return back to the glory days, it wouldn't be so much about money anymore. Of course you have to prove your worth, and Harbaugh has. Kaep has to a degree, but only within a small sample size. But it isn't like Kaep would not be a coveted QB for a lot of other teams. Even Alex Smith could be in for a nice payday, and his ceiling is right about where it is. Kaep already has surpassed Smith in SF, and we still haven't seen him take the next step yet.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Harbaugh proved he can make QBs good. Luck, smith, kaep. Yes, they were all talented, but he's the one that wins with them. And he does it by building a good defense and OL. Which both protect the qb in many ways, especially game management. He also has had very athletic QBs. There's no way kaep is getting over 18m. This is already a SB team with any of 15 QBs running it, not to mention some QBs they could get late in round 1. Smith is gone because of money more than talent. The same may be said soon of kaep.
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BaBastage
Footballguy
As has been noted in the media (and I think this thread), Harbaugh was seen showing interest in Jimmy Garoppolo earlier this week.
The 49ers are pretty stocked with high draft picks. I could see them burning one a quarterback, both for insurance of a Kaepernick injury, as well as contract negotiation posturing. In that scenario, they don't need to give Kaepernick his contract this year. Then they use the time to evaluate / get experience to his possible successor, like they did with Kaepernick under Alex Smith.
It's a formula that Harbaugh did successfully once, it's plausible he'll try to do it again. It's also possible (But I don't think likely) that he trades Kaep this year and get 2015 draft picks. The ultimate buy low and sell high.
Personally, I'm not against the strategy at all.
drummer
Footballguy
5Rings
Lurker
You take Romo, I'll take Kap. Playoff records speak for themselvesYou don't think better QB play increases their chances of winning a ring in the past three years? Yeah, I should have thrown "probably" in there, but if you think that Kaepernick and Smith gave SF a better chance to win the past three years than those three QBs then this discussion isn't worth pursuing.
Just be careful, there are some thin skinned posters in here who are quick to run to the Family Ties mods.
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