Either. I mean, I think we all know that GB won't be making a big splash in free agency, so I'd probably rule out Bell, Crowell, and Hyde. But guys like Dion Lewis, McKinnon, and Alex Collins could present a problem for Williams/Jones/Montgomery fans if the price is right.
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RB Jamaal Williams, NO (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SaintsInDome2006
- Start date
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Just put him on ignore, works better.
Honestly, anyone who thinks they can say with certainty which back will receive 50+% of the carries in 2018 is a fool. The situation is as clear as mud. No one knows who will get 50+% of the carries in 2 weeks, much less next year! Neither of the two backs are perfect. I just think Jones lacks what can be taught whereas Williams lacks in areas that cannot be
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Hankmoody
Footballguy
We're right where we were in May, and right where GB wants to be - two guys at cheap investment that are "good enough" for when Rodgers isn't carrying the team. They don't care if Williams isn't dynamic or if Montgomery isn't a bellcow or if Jones isn't the second coming of AP. None are ever going to be the centerpiece of the offense and if they are all healthy they are all going to be plug and play rotating in as Rodgers drives the train.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yeah I really think this has the makings of fantasy hell but a really great situation for GB. I'd likely not want any piece of this backfield right now. Maybe once Rodgers comes back and we see some consistency one way or the other, then we can maybe begin to make educated guesses on what next year will look like... but really even then it's a shot in the dark. This just reminds me a lot of several RBBC teams out there such as CIN, PHI, NO, NE, etc. It's where the NFL is going these days it seems... and it works
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I don't see them spending money to sign anybody, nor do I see them using a draft pick on a RB. Too many other needs -- like rush LB, WR, o-line, CB, etc.
bostonfred
Footballguy
At the end of 4 quarters of play it was all Williams
In fact Williams had 21 carries for over 100 yards when the final drive started. Then it went Williams run, Williams run, Hundley run, Hundley pass incomplete to Nelson, Hundley run, Williams run, Hundley pass to Williams.
And that pass to Williams was the only pass completion of the drive. Williams took it for a big gain to the 20 yard line.
At that point they could literally have just kicked a field goal and won it. The game was over.
Instead, they called a run up the middle. Jones came in and got one carry, his first touch of the game. He ran into the pile, bounced outside and broke the touchdown. He ended the day with one carry for twenty yards and one touchdown.
I can see people wondering if that might change next week, but I don't understand how anyone is confused about the usage or the split right now.
In fact Williams had 21 carries for over 100 yards when the final drive started. Then it went Williams run, Williams run, Hundley run, Hundley pass incomplete to Nelson, Hundley run, Williams run, Hundley pass to Williams.
And that pass to Williams was the only pass completion of the drive. Williams took it for a big gain to the 20 yard line.
At that point they could literally have just kicked a field goal and won it. The game was over.
Instead, they called a run up the middle. Jones came in and got one carry, his first touch of the game. He ran into the pile, bounced outside and broke the touchdown. He ended the day with one carry for twenty yards and one touchdown.
I can see people wondering if that might change next week, but I don't understand how anyone is confused about the usage or the split right now.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Football Jones
Footballguy
The thing with Jones is there's a ton of guys like him in the NFL. His lack of physicality might be overcome if he was more dynamic, but his long speed is mediocre. When you consider his size, it's pedestrian at best.
He does nothing that wows you (like Williams' physicality) & is a below average pass protector to boot. His size & strength will likely always limit him there. Jones has decent vision, instincts & can catch the ball, but his physical traits are like a lot of backup RBs.
I believe the difference in Jones & Williams as it relates to being a feature back is fairly significant. Again, I think Jones has some talent, but his skill set is geared more towards a CoP/backup.
One important distinction to make when scouting RBs is to ask yourself did they draft this guy to be a potential feature back? Many times the answer is no. It doesn't mean some guys don't work their way into being a starter, but RBs like Jones, Abdullah, etc., are behind the 8-ball from the start. Just not physical enough & not dynamic enough, IMO. It's a bad combination.
That said, this should be one of the more interesting RB situations to monitor down the stretch & into the offseason.
He does nothing that wows you (like Williams' physicality) & is a below average pass protector to boot. His size & strength will likely always limit him there. Jones has decent vision, instincts & can catch the ball, but his physical traits are like a lot of backup RBs.
I believe the difference in Jones & Williams as it relates to being a feature back is fairly significant. Again, I think Jones has some talent, but his skill set is geared more towards a CoP/backup.
One important distinction to make when scouting RBs is to ask yourself did they draft this guy to be a potential feature back? Many times the answer is no. It doesn't mean some guys don't work their way into being a starter, but RBs like Jones, Abdullah, etc., are behind the 8-ball from the start. Just not physical enough & not dynamic enough, IMO. It's a bad combination.
That said, this should be one of the more interesting RB situations to monitor down the stretch & into the offseason.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
BTW, a smaller guy who wasn't real physical but had success was Chris Johnson. His electric burst & legit world class speed made up for his lack of physicality.
Makes a huge difference.
Makes a huge difference.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
My opinion would be that no one knows. If I had to take a guess I'd say Jones because he flourished with Rodgers more than Williams ever did. That's going off a small sample size, but Hundley won't be the QB next year, and the team is relying on Williams because Hundley sucks. He's doing a good job with it. But with Rodgers back, Jones may be the better back for that offensive game plan. At least he has been so far this season when Rodgers was healthy.
I didn't realize you'd get butt hurt so badly about someone disagreeing with you about Jones (and it's not even like I've stated he's a JAG, like you have about Williams). I stated my guesses and left it open for you to state yours. I didn't state that mine were some sort of guaranteed locks. But on the back of his last 4 performances, someone would have to be blind to logic to think Williams is on the verge of losing 50%+ of the carries in two weeks. No one knows for sure, but it's pretty obvious who it will be barring injuries.
Sorry to nit pick, but that was the first drive of the game, so if they had kicked a field goal, Tampa would have had a possession.
This.
I don't know where he got that I was "saying with certainty" when I was actually just throwing out guesses at percentages. Saying with certainty would be "I think there's a 100% chance it is Williams." I don't think that. To further illustrate the logic behind the % guesses: I was reading an article last week that said it is very unlikely the Packers lean on Montgomery as a FA in 2019 - the strategy would be to stick with Williams/Jones as the future and see if it works while using Montgomery as a fail safe for injuries and then letting him walk. Then they'll have 3 years of super cheap RBs. Seemed like good logic which is why I put Montgomery last. Williams was drafted higher, was higher on the depth chart, and is now performing as a bell cow back, which is why I put him at 50%. Jones might have the talent to be a feature back, but I think GB uses him as CoP in their system.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Why would Jones be below someone not in the roster?Keep hope alive, I guess, but that didn't work as well in reverse.
In all seriousness, assuming they don't run a true 3-way RBBC, who do you think has the best odds of getting 50%+ of the snaps (per healthy game) next season? I'll go first:
Jamaal Williams - 50% chance
Someone not on the current roster - 35% chance
Aaron Jones - 10% chance
Ty Montgomery - 5% chance
sho nuff
Footballguy
Because Jones is just coming back from injury.
And no, they couldn’t have just won it with a FG. It was the first possession of OT.
I think he's their CoP back (not because he can't handle 20 carries, just due to a bruiser/pass protector fitting their scheme better). I think it is likely they either let Williams handle the bulk of the snaps or a FA, using Jones for designed pass plays or maybe the 2-minute drill.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I disagree that a bruiser just fits them better. Or they would have been doing that rather than Ty then Jones getting first crack.
I don’t think they address this other than a possible late round pick.
Its Williams and Jones...with Montgomery still mixed in next year.
It could have been bad journalism or a mis-quote, but I read that Williams was getting some first team reps in training camp due to his pass blocking. And you may not recall, but Jones didn't get first crack - Williams was the first back in the game after Montgomery was hurt, but Williams tweaked his MCL after a couple carries and sat out the rest of the game and missed practice the next week. They rode the hot hand after that.
I think it's inaccurate to say Jones got the first crack after Ty got hurt. Williams was the one "pushing Montgomery" in camp/preseason. He was the #2 all along. When Ty first hurt his ribs, it was Williams who came on in relief, but he also got hurt in that game and that opened the door for Jones to start, and he responded with a big game, staking his claim to the backfield.
sho nuff
Footballguy
And he was mediocre at best in preseason.
I think Jones showed enough to keep Will And basically on tha bench until he got hurt too.
I just don’t see any way that anyone can claim it’s 50% chance it’s Williams next year and a higher percentage to someone outside the organization than to Jones.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
At what point was Williams "pushing Montgomery"!?!? That's news to everyone, probably mostly McCarthy.
Everything out of GB prior to week 1 was that the staff was sorely disappointed in Williams and he was #2 on the depth chart only because of his draft position. I have it on good word that he was almost cut following the preaseason!!! But the team kept him on because of being a 4th round selection.
Longtucky Lemmings
Footballguy
I do not recall reading anything suggesting the bolded. Links?
I do distinctly recall reading several things like this: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000826003/article/jamaal-williams-pushing-montgomery-for-starter-reps
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Interesting. I stand corrected. However, anyone who watched GB games was hardly "buzzing" about Williams... guy was average at best all preseason. Honestly, Mays looked like the best back of the rookies after the preseason, and I still wouldn't be surprised if he took over eventually. I can't understand how anyone could get excited about what Williams showed this preseason, but you provided a link, so I give you credit.
I have a link somewhere in one of these threads where it states Williams was ahead of Jones because of his draft position. Long work day, so I don't have the time to go back and look, but I don't need to prove myself right. All that proves is that each of us found a website that backs up our claims, and at this point it really doesn't matter. If it makes anyone feel better to think I'm full of it and no link exists, have at it, I really couldn't care less.
I'm in the crowd of let's see what this next month does and then we can make somewhat educated guesses for 2018. At this point it's just a joke how this debate has gone; nobody knows what will happen even in 2 weeks when Rodgers comes back, so how can anyone know in 2018 who will be starting? It's just laughable. Both of these RBs bring a lot to the table. Neither are a complete back without flaws.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Williams did get the first opportunity to replace Monty & was never passed by Jones until Williams, himself, was injured.
Regardless, there was a reason Williams was taken higher & that is very likely playing out now. They've got to be excited to see what Williams can do with Rodgers. Williams will be difficult to defend with a light box. For instance, very few RBs would've gotten into end zone on his TD run. Williams has rare ability as a tackle-breaker.
At this point, I think you have to give the nod to Williams as far as who's likely to be their feature back next season. The story isn't fully written yet, but it's looking good for Williams, IMO.
Regardless, there was a reason Williams was taken higher & that is very likely playing out now. They've got to be excited to see what Williams can do with Rodgers. Williams will be difficult to defend with a light box. For instance, very few RBs would've gotten into end zone on his TD run. Williams has rare ability as a tackle-breaker.
At this point, I think you have to give the nod to Williams as far as who's likely to be their feature back next season. The story isn't fully written yet, but it's looking good for Williams, IMO.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Flat out wrong. There was zero discussion of cutting him. Your sources are evidently quite poor.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
ZWK
Footballguy
The Packers have relied on one workhorse back all season, except for week 9.
Weeks 1-3 it was Montgomery (occasionally spelled by Williams, with Jones buried on the depth chart). Week 4 it started out Montgomery, then when Montgomery got injured it went to Williams, then when Williams got injured it went to Jones. Weeks 5-7 Jones was the workhorse (occasionally spelled by Montgomery, with Williams buried on the depth chart). Week 8 bye. Week 9 was a committee mess - Jones got the start and just over half of the RB workload, Montgomery led the RBs in snaps, and Williams was involved a bit too. Week 10 was a repeat of week 4 in a different order, with Jones starting and carrying the load till he got injured, then Montgomery taking over till he got injured, then Williams finishing out the game. Weeks 11-12 Williams was the workhorse with Montgomery & Jones out. Week 13 Williams was again the workhorse with Jones active (but perhaps not 100%).
So, the Packers' opinions about their RBs have been all over the place, and don't provide a way of confidently predicting who will be their lead RB for the next month (let alone for next season).
Weeks 1-3 it was Montgomery (occasionally spelled by Williams, with Jones buried on the depth chart). Week 4 it started out Montgomery, then when Montgomery got injured it went to Williams, then when Williams got injured it went to Jones. Weeks 5-7 Jones was the workhorse (occasionally spelled by Montgomery, with Williams buried on the depth chart). Week 8 bye. Week 9 was a committee mess - Jones got the start and just over half of the RB workload, Montgomery led the RBs in snaps, and Williams was involved a bit too. Week 10 was a repeat of week 4 in a different order, with Jones starting and carrying the load till he got injured, then Montgomery taking over till he got injured, then Williams finishing out the game. Weeks 11-12 Williams was the workhorse with Montgomery & Jones out. Week 13 Williams was again the workhorse with Jones active (but perhaps not 100%).
So, the Packers' opinions about their RBs have been all over the place, and don't provide a way of confidently predicting who will be their lead RB for the next month (let alone for next season).
Apparently you missed this article, which was posted by Longtucky Lemmings above:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000826003/article/jamaal-williams-pushing-montgomery-for-starter-reps
Interseptopus
Footballguy
In public, sure, I'm talking about rumors circulating around the team due to his such poor preseason and them not really wanting to have 4 HBs. May have been mentioned once and half serious, but at this point it doesn't matter, Williams has obviously earned his way into a starting discussion. He looks exactly how GB hoped he would.Alex P Keaton said:
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Got it. So I was "suckering" other posters by mentioning that it was reported that Jamaal Williams was pushing Montgomery in training camp.
Longtucky Lemmings
Footballguy
To be clear, I wasn't posting that link as a "Team Williams" member. I had just recalled reading positive impressions from the coaching staff during training camp and couldn't recall ever seeing the kinds of things Dr. Dan had alluded too. Figuring I had simply missed those articles I was hoping he could share a link with me.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Got it. So I was "suckering" other posters by mentioning that it was reported that Jamaal Williams was pushing Montgomery in training camp.
Technically, after preseason he played so badly no one knew who the #2 would be. It was presumed Williams would get first crack however he so grossly under-performed during the preseason that there wasn't a Packer fan out there who was happy when Ty went down and Williams went in.
25 rushes for 61 yards
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Longtucky Lemmings
Footballguy
Agreed. And while I do believe Williams is currently better positioned for a lead back role after pre-season (and having attended the Packers v. Broncos game live) I was disappointed in how poorly Williams performed in live action. I believe I even made a comment in this or a related thread a while back I felt like saw two very different backs - the Williams on college tape (who I was a fan of) and the Williams of NFL preseason (who struck me as a jag).
Whatever happened between preseason and these past couple weeks I feel like we are now seeing the Williams I saw when I watched his college tape.
In the end, though, I'm not convinced any RB currently on the Packers roster is a shoe-in lead back. They all strike me as guys teetering on the fence between taking the job and being replaced.
Sigh. For such a veteran poster you sure are muddying this thread with garbage.
Williams was the #2 in preseason and until he got injured in Week 4. Aaron Jones played ZERO snaps until both Montgomery and Williams were injured.
If that doesn't make it accurate to say that Williams was the #2 in training camp and preseason, I don't know what does.
Snap Counts Weeks 1-3:
Montgomery: 74, 65, 65
Williams: 6, 11, 5
Jones: N/A, 0, 0
Fifth-round RB Aaron Jones is listed on the third-team offense on the Packers' initial training camp depth chart. Ty Montgomery is the starter with fourth-rounder Jamaal Williams and seventh-rounder Devante Mays on the second-team offense. It is disappointing Jones is listed behind Mays, but the pecking order won't be fully hashed out until preseason games. Williams is the best fantasy bet behind Montgomery.
Aug 6 - 4:23 PM
Aaron Jones did not gain any yards on his three touches in the Packers' preseason opener. Jones did see some snaps in the first half, but all of his touches came after the break. The fifth-rounder is clearly behind Jamaal Williams for the No. 2 job at this point.
Aug 10 - 10:30 PM
Aaron Jones rushed two times for 10 yards and caught three passes for 11 yards and a score in the Packers' second preseason game. Jones looked good on his two runs and found the end zone from five yards out in the passing game, but he played clearly behind fellow rookie Jamaal Williams. Even if something happens to Ty Montgomery, Jones will struggle to find fantasy value.
Aug 19 - 9:44 PM
Aaron Jones rushed 13 times for 49 yards and a touchdown in the Packers' Week 4 win over the Bears. Pressed into duty after Ty Montgomery (ribs) and Jamaal Williams (knee) departed with injury, Jones wasn't spectacular, but did what he could behind the Packers' injury-ravaged offense line. It was clear he has giddy up, probably more than Williams. (Not a surprise based on their respective measurables.) If both TyMont and Williams are sidelined for Week 5 against the Cowboys, Jones will have some low-end RB2 appeal in fantasy. He's certainly worth targeting on the waiver wire.
Sep 29 - 1:03 AM
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Got it. So I was "suckering" other posters by mentioning that it was reported that Jamaal Williams was pushing Montgomery in training camp.
Ok...just pointing it out in case others mistake that for something else.
Always appreciate the info from many perspectives on this.
As Ive said...this year going forward I think Williams gets the bulk of the carries based on how he has played. But i don't think Jones just goes away and could cut into Williams time. It will be good for GB, but possibly bad for FF. Williams should still be a solid play (flex at the least, but RB2 possible) Next year is where it really gets muddy.
Jones is a nice lotto ticket if Williams gets dinged.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
We can go back and forth all day with our own sources that prove we are right in our thinking. I can find one that raves about aaron Jones' finish to the preseason and a "price is wrong horn" for Jamaal Williams. It doesn't do anything but turn into a measuring contest. Williams was terrible in the preseason. Jones was pushing him for the job. He was inactive week 1 because of his inability to learn the special teams playbook I believe was the story. After that he was active ahead of Mays.
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I am not "Team Williams" either, simply trying to set the record straight on what the pecking order was before the injury roulette started. I agree that with Jones and Williams healthy, based on what they've each shown so far this season, it's anyone's guess how the touches are distributed moving forward (and next year).
Okay but even in the article you linked it says this pretty clearly:
Jones worked behind fellow rookie Jamaal Williams, who received the start at running back but gained only 31 yards on 11 carries. Williams has been second in the backfield pecking order all summer, but his extensive usage and lack of production in Thursday's exhibition provides reason to question the security of his spot on the depth chart. Jones could make a push for backup work if Williams struggles in relief of Ty Montgomery early in the season.
We wouldn't even be having this conversation right now if you hadn't taken such umbrage with my original post which was simply pointing out that Jones did not get the first crack after TyMont got hurt (which was and remains false).
Thanks.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yes, Williams was second on the depth chart before the injury roulette started.
What I'm saying is that after the preseason, the depth chart was what it was due to draft position mostly. I recall reading it somewhere, but can't find the website. And to be honest, it doesn't matter. If it makes you feel good to be "right" fine, you're right. I couldn't care less. Tired of a pissing contest in here TBH. I know what I read (and I read a lot about this backfield) and it doesn't matter at this point because both backs have proven they can play when given the chance in real game action.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Williams was playing tight & tentative early on. It happens. As you alluded to, we're just now starting to see the ability he displayed in college.
I loved his tape. Williams is a bully with the ball in his hands. He plays MUCH bigger than his size would indicate. In fact, WIlliams is one of the most physical RBs I've ever scouted, regardless of size. The advantage there is he's more dynamic than many bigger backs.
The "smash arm" to the DB was vintage Williams & the TD run was really impressive. Very few RBs score there.
Williams hasn't locked up the feature back job for next season by any means, but I'm liking what I see. The coming weeks & the offseason will be telling.
Here are some Waldman clips for those of us who are not elite arm chair scouts and are willing to learn something. Warning: some of these plays will definitely make you at people for calling him a plodder.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcQS0oRH6ge/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcQTEf-HOg8/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRFoccH-Vs/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRDPZcn1O_/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRFLABHALQ/
at people for calling him a plodder.https://www.instagram.com/p/BcQS0oRH6ge/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcQTEf-HOg8/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRFoccH-Vs/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRDPZcn1O_/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRFLABHALQ/
He doesn't have links. He is just making stuff up in an angry fit. It's weird to watch.
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
It says "You've chosen to ignore content by Dr. Dan" but calling it 'content' is pretty charitable.
When you guys get done arguing who is right or wrong, do any of you remember if Jones got benched at one point due to poor pass protection.
Looks like it was about 3 weeks ago.
http://www.packershome.com/forum/posts/m386633-packers
Looks like it was about 3 weeks ago.
http://www.packershome.com/forum/posts/m386633-packers
