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The Nerdy Impeachment Thread (1 Viewer)

In this thread, I'd like to step back from arguing over whether Trump will or should be impeached.  We can discuss it within the framework of the larger discussion, but I want the focus to be on the question of what is, or what should be, an impeachable offense.  I understand that in one sense, the answer is whatever the House considers to be impeachable, but if that were really true, we'd have had more impeachments.  So let's start with the text, from Art. II, Sec. 4.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors
I'll handle Treason and Bribery briefly in subsequent posts.  They have a pretty set definition, but there are a few tricky questions about them we might want to discuss.  But the bulk of the thread is to see what we think a high Crime or Misdemeanor is.  Does it have to be a violation of the criminal law?  Does it have to be done while in office?  Can a facially lawful exercise of Executive authority nevertheless be grounds for impeachment?  Can I be any more boring?  Let's discuss.

 
I think he's most at risk for going down from Obstruction of Justice, based on evidence we're all aware of.  That's the only thing that we know touches him personally, whereas the other info is either yet-to-be-disclosed, or non-existent. 

 
Based on some of the charges against Andrew Johnson, my conclusion is that it's whatever the House of Representatibes decides it is. There is no standard; it's entirely subjective. 

 
This is a political term, not a legal one, right?  Is there an objective definition of what a High Crime/Misdemeanor is?  I think it would have to describe subversive government abuse in some way.

 
Bribery is probably the simplest offense to classify.  The standard legal definition of a bribery is:

The offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of something of value for the purpose of influencing the action of an official in the discharge of his or her public or legal duties.
The federal bribery statute, as it relates to the President holds that whoever:

being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for:

(A)

being influenced in the performance of any official act;

(B)

being influenced to commit or aid in committing, or to collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the commission of any fraud, on the United States; or

(C)

being induced to do or omit to do any act in violation of the official duty of such official or person;
So, if the President (who is a public official)  either receives or seeks to receive something of value in exchange for being influenced in the performance of an official act, being influenced to allow a fraud, on the United States, or being induced to commit an illegal act, then he or she would be guilty of bribery.  You need, at the very least, a request for quid pro quo.  This for that.  So if President Trump accepted some form of valuable consideration (say, a favorable decision on trademarks on his name) from a foreign country in exchange for dropping sanctions, that would qualify.

But what about a candidate?  A candidate is not a public official.  Until he is President-Elect, a candidate is not a "person selected to be a public official."  Interestingly, the federal bribery statute specifies that a public official includes any "Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified."  So, candidates for Congress would be covered.  But that language does not extend to those who are public officials by virtue of being "an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States" which would include the President.

So there is a wrinkle in that if Trump made the promise as a candidate, he might not fit under the statute.  Of course, the quo side of the quid pro quo would be an act he commits as President, so maybe he would be found to fit, but the presence of the language encompassing candidates for Congress, but not other officers of the United States, argues against that interpretation. 

Which is a long winded way of saying, is something that meets our gestalt impression of a bribe, but which may not be defined as a bribe under the US Code an impeachable offense?

 
This is a political term, not a legal one, right?  Is there an objective definition of what a High Crime/Misdemeanor is?  I think it would have to describe subversive government abuse in some way.
There is no objective definition.  But there has been a lot of good writing about it, and I have my own view as to how we should define it. 

 
I'm gonna play along as much as can because, again, :nerd: :constitutionguy:  but I'm pretty sure that at the end of this my fall back bedrock position on this topic specifically is that the need to use this power is identical to pornography..... we know it when we see it.

 
Based on some of the charges against Andrew Johnson, my conclusion is that it's whatever the House of Representatibes decides it is. There is no standard; it's entirely subjective. 
We'll get to the Johnson appointment.  I'll just preview it by saying that I think you have to understand that in the context of it's time when the rights and prerogatives between Congress and the Executive were not firmly established.  So while we might never be able to conceive of a modern example of impeachment for that type of offense, it actually provides a very good example of the broad character of an impeachable offense. 

 
Based on some of the charges against Andrew Johnson, my conclusion is that it's whatever the House of Representatibes decides it is. There is no standard; it's entirely subjective. 
This aggravates me. Why try to rehab Johnson? He violated the law and the government was dysfunctional under him. The impeachment of Trump would be on totally different grounds but Johnson's unconstitutional misbehavior, on the heels of a Civil War, made him arguably disqualified to hold the office of the presidency.

 
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Bribery is probably the simplest offense to classify.  The standard legal definition of a bribery is:

The federal bribery statute, as it relates to the President holds that whoever:

So, if the President (who is a public official)  either receives or seeks to receive something of value in exchange for being influenced in the performance of an official act, being influenced to allow a fraud, on the United States, or being induced to commit an illegal act, then he or she would be guilty of bribery.  You need, at the very least, a request for quid pro quo.  This for that.  So if President Trump accepted some form of valuable consideration (say, a favorable decision on trademarks on his name) from a foreign country in exchange for dropping sanctions, that would qualify.

But what about a candidate?  A candidate is not a public official.  Until he is President-Elect, a candidate is not a "person selected to be a public official."  Interestingly, the federal bribery statute specifies that a public official includes any "Member of Congress, Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such official has qualified."  So, candidates for Congress would be covered.  But that language does not extend to those who are public officials by virtue of being "an officer or employee or person acting for or on behalf of the United States" which would include the President.

So there is a wrinkle in that if Trump made the promise as a candidate, he might not fit under the statute.  Of course, the quo side of the quid pro quo would be an act he commits as President, so maybe he would be found to fit, but the presence of the language encompassing candidates for Congress, but not other officers of the United States, argues against that interpretation. 

Which is a long winded way of saying, is something that meets our gestalt impression of a bribe, but which may not be defined as a bribe under the US Code an impeachable offense?
No.  And given the power and reach of the Office of President, I think we are more than hard pressed to impeach a President for bribery.  Frankly, you are playing with fire.  The better argument would be what came of the bribery and is that impeachable.  And I think in that, what came of the bribery would probably fall under the treason and high crimes language better than just bribery.

But in everything, regardless of what a specific criminal statute says on any of this, the power of impeachment is political, not criminal.  There are no criminal penalties for the issuance of an impeachment resolution, just conviction which results in removal from office.  You could have someone impeached, convicted and removed who never faces criminal charges.  And because it is a political power, again, black letter law tells a story, but not the whole story.

 
This aggravates me. Why try to rehab Johnson? He violated the law and the government was dysfunctional under him. The impeachment of Trump would be on totally different grounds but Johnson's unconstitutional misbehavior, on the heels of a Civil War, made him arguably disqualified to hold the office if the presidency.
Do you think firing Stanton was unconstitutional?  Or was the Tenure in Office Act itself unconstitutional?

 
This aggravates me. Why try to rehab Johnson? He violated the law and the government was dysfunctional under him. The impeachment of Trump would be on totally different grounds but Johnson's unconstitutional misbehavior, on the heels of a Civil War, made him arguably disqualified to hold the office of the presidency.
Oooh, I can play that one too.  Is this the right thread?  This is turning into an awesome Friday.

 
Do you think firing Stanton was unconstitutional?  Or was the Tenure in Office Act itself unconstitutional?
In real time arguments of the constitutionality of the law don't matter, the executive is sworn to uphold the laws of the US and that is part of the oath. So yes I think flagrantly defying Congress in that situation precipitated a genuine constitutional crisis on the back end of a civil war. AJ should have litigated it but followed the law in the meantime.

 
No.  And given the power and reach of the Office of President, I think we are more than hard pressed to impeach a President for bribery.  Frankly, you are playing with fire.  The better argument would be what came of the bribery and is that impeachable.  And I think in that, what came of the bribery would probably fall under the treason and high crimes language better than just bribery.

But in everything, regardless of what a specific criminal statute says on any of this, the power of impeachment is political, not criminal.  There are no criminal penalties for the issuance of an impeachment resolution, just conviction which results in removal from office.  You could have someone impeached, convicted and removed who never faces criminal charges.  And because it is a political power, again, black letter law tells a story, but not the whole story.
It is a political question, I agree.  It is, almost certainly, not reviewable by the courts.  I probably don't even have to qualify that.  We have cases saying that the impeachment of federal judges is not reviewable.  But that doesn't really answer the question.  I'm a little surprised that you think we'd be hard pressed to convict a President on a clear case of quid pro quo.  It might be hard to prove, because the nexus between the inducement and act is always hard to prove.

But let's just take a hypothetical.  Let's say that the sale of the 20% interest in Rofsnet occurred after Trump took office.  And let's assume that Mueller and his team are able to follow the money trail and find that share is now owned by a shell corporation controlled by the Trump family.  And let's say that Trump refuses to enforce some aspects of a Russians sanction bill that was passed over his veto.  You don't think that should prompt impeachment charges?  What if we have a wiretap showing Trump agreeing to the deal with Kislyak?

 
As a layperson what confounds me the most is how Clinton had Obstruction charges against him during his impeachment but none of the multitude of things Trump has done, ranging from admitting why he fired Comey on television to having an active role in a lie presented to explain his son's meeting with Russians, is not comparable. Was there ever definitive evidence presented that Clinton influenced Lewinski's testimony? I can't recall. We have evidence numerous times over of Trump actively involved in this investigation. So how one could lead to an impeachment and the other isn't is what I can't wrap my head around.

Other than the Republicans are in power and they won't go for it.

 
In real time arguments of the constitutionality of the law don't matter, the executive is sworn to uphold the laws of the US and that is part of the oath. So yes I think flagrantly defying Congress in that situation precipitated a genuine constitutional crisis on the back end of a civil war. AJ should have litigated it but followed the law in the meantime.
That's a weird argument.  The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the United States.  How can the President faithfully execute the laws when he executes what he believes in good faith is an illegal law?  Particularly when his position is that the law unconstitutionally intrudes upon his Article II powers?  Remember, the courts don't issue advisory opinions.  The only way to get judicial review when Congress and the President disagree is for the President to take action to make it a ripe controversy.

 
I am far from a legalguy, but here's my (hot) take:  high crimes is very vague, and probably purposefully.  The Founding Fathers left a lot of wiggle room here, and the power to impeach is one of the checks and balances the legislative branch has over the executive. 

I would argue that the "High" in High Crimes and Misdemeanors means that the crime must be so odious that congress can get together and remove a duly elected official.  You can't impeach a president for jay-walking.  It seems the precedent of what constitutes a "high crime" includes perjury and obstruction of justice.  

Because impeachment is political, the alleged High Crimes of the president have to be so bad that some of his own party would vote against him, and the vast majority of the opposing party.  Enough representatives have to be convinced that it's in the best interest of the country for the president to be removed, especially considering the effects of the chaos, turmoil, and long-standing political damage an impeachment could effect. 

Honestly, it's pretty amazing that this has only happened twice in the history of the Republic.  It certainly helps the proceedings if the impeachee is of a different party than the impeachor. I would predict that as this country becomes more and more politically divided, impeachment will become more of a regular occurrence. It truly is a miracle that Obama was never impeached.

 
As a layperson what confounds me the most is how Clinton had Obstruction charges against him during his impeachment but none of the multitude of things Trump has done, ranging from admitting why he fired Comey on television to having an active role in a lie presented to explain his son's meeting with Russians, is not comparable. Was there ever definitive evidence presented that Clinton influenced Lewinski's testimony? I can't recall. We have evidence numerous times over of Trump actively involved in this investigation. So how one could lead to an impeachment and the other isn't is what I can't wrap my head around.

Other than the Republicans are in power and they won't go for it.
There were three justifications for Obstruction charges against Clinton.  Two of those obstruction charges were essentially identical to the two perjury charges. 

So Clinton lied under oath in a deposition.  He lied in written responses to Congress.  And it was claimed that he sought to influence Lewinsky's testimony.  The factual evidence for the first two was obviously much more developed than the third.  Which is why perjury counts got more votes than obstruction counts.

 
I am far from a legalguy, but here's my (hot) take:  high crimes is very vague, and probably purposefully.  The Founding Fathers left a lot of wiggle room here, and the power to impeach is one of the checks and balances the legislative branch has over the executive. 

I would argue that the "High" in High Crimes and Misdemeanors means that the crime must be so odious that congress can get together and remove a duly elected official.  You can't impeach a president for jay-walking.  It seems the precedent of what constitutes a "high crime" includes perjury and obstruction of justice.  

Because impeachment is political, the alleged High Crimes of the president have to be so bad that some of his own party would vote against him, and the vast majority of the opposing party.  Enough representatives have to be convinced that it's in the best interest of the country for the president to be removed, especially considering the effects of the chaos, turmoil, and long-standing political damage an impeachment could effect. 

Honestly, it's pretty amazing that this has only happened twice in the history of the Republic.  It certainly helps the proceedings if the impeachee is of a different party than the impeachor. I would predict that as this country becomes more and more politically divided, impeachment will become more of a regular occurrence. It truly is a miracle that Obama was never impeached.
Given the Republicans' irrational hatred for him I'm surprised they didn't try. They hated Clinton with a passion and I'm convinced that's what drove his impeachment. 

 
It is a political question, I agree.  It is, almost certainly, not reviewable by the courts.  I probably don't even have to qualify that.  We have cases saying that the impeachment of federal judges is not reviewable.  But that doesn't really answer the question.  I'm a little surprised that you think we'd be hard pressed to convict a President on a clear case of quid pro quo.  It might be hard to prove, because the nexus between the inducement and act is always hard to prove.

But let's just take a hypothetical.  Let's say that the sale of the 20% interest in Rofsnet occurred after Trump took office.  And let's assume that Mueller and his team are able to follow the money trail and find that share is now owned by a shell corporation controlled by the Trump family.  And let's say that Trump refuses to enforce some aspects of a Russians sanction bill that was passed over his veto.  You don't think that should prompt impeachment charges?  What if we have a wiretap showing Trump agreeing to the deal with Kislyak?
I think that all of that falls better under treason or high crimes..... it's semantic I agree.  And Presidents have refused to enforce many laws.  The lack of use of the power of the Executive is not necessarily a bad thing, and it shouldn't be impeachable............. in most circumstances.  

My intellectual problem is that "bribery" in the political arena is impossible to define, nowhere and everywhere.  There is almost no political difference between what you laid out and a President simply being able to raise a billion dollars to run for office from the people that would benefit from the act complained of in one way or the other.  The basis of fund raise is quid pro quo.  I don't find it an evil in and of itself.

 
That's a weird argument.  The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the United States.  How can the President faithfully execute the laws when he executes what he believes in good faith is an illegal law?  Particularly when his position is that the law unconstitutionally intrudes upon his Article II powers?  Remember, the courts don't issue advisory opinions.  The only way to get judicial review when Congress and the President disagree is for the President to take action to make it a ripe controversy.
could the president not sue the congress in that case?  Have the law overturned prior to acting on it, on the basis of the law illegally restricting his presidential authority?

 
There were three justifications for Obstruction charges against Clinton.  Two of those obstruction charges were essentially identical to the two perjury charges. 

So Clinton lied under oath in a deposition.  He lied in written responses to Congress.  And it was claimed that he sought to influence Lewinsky's testimony.  The factual evidence for the first two was obviously much more developed than the third.  Which is why perjury counts got more votes than obstruction counts.
Yeah I understand the perjury issue but the claims of influencing Lewinski's testimony were still part of the articles drawn up, correct? If so hasn't a standard of some fashion now been established? And if that's true hasn't Trump gone way beyond what Clinton was alleged to have done? 

 
I am far from a legalguy, but here's my (hot) take:  high crimes is very vague, and probably purposefully.  The Founding Fathers left a lot of wiggle room here, and the power to impeach is one of the checks and balances the legislative branch has over the executive. 

I would argue that the "High" in High Crimes and Misdemeanors means that the crime must be so odious that congress can get together and remove a duly elected official.  You can't impeach a president for jay-walking.  It seems the precedent of what constitutes a "high crime" includes perjury and obstruction of justice.  

Because impeachment is political, the alleged High Crimes of the president have to be so bad that some of his own party would vote against him, and the vast majority of the opposing party.  Enough representatives have to be convinced that it's in the best interest of the country for the president to be removed, especially considering the effects of the chaos, turmoil, and long-standing political damage an impeachment could effect. 

Honestly, it's pretty amazing that this has only happened twice in the history of the Republic.  It certainly helps the proceedings if the impeachee is of a different party than the impeachor. I would predict that as this country becomes more and more politically divided, impeachment will become more of a regular occurrence. It truly is a miracle that Obama was never impeached.
One thing to remember is that Framers didn't necessarily envision political parties as the main source of friction in the government.  They knew about them, but they structured the government thinking that the main form of friction would be institutional.  The President, the Congress, and the States.  So while they certainly knew super majorities would be hard to come by, I don't think they were considering it as a question of whether members of a President's party would vote him out.  I mean, Jefferson and Burr were both Anti-Federalists but huge political rivals.

 
Johnson is part of that point.
We know my feelings on Johnson.  His impeachment was very much a result of the times and it is hard to use it as an absolute example for all others in the future. But frankly, the articles were rather weak.  I think he got exactly what he deserved - not reelected.  And historical remembrance that is only going to be better than the current guy.  

 
This aggravates me. Why try to rehab Johnson? He violated the law and the government was dysfunctional under him. The impeachment of Trump would be on totally different grounds but Johnson's unconstitutional misbehavior, on the heels of a Civil War, made him arguably disqualified to hold the office of the presidency.
Not Tim, but the Articles of Impeachment with Andrew Johnson included stuff outside the Tenure in Office Act.  One of the articles includes the accusation that he did "make and declare, with a loud voice, certain intemperate, inflammatory and scandalous harangues, and therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces, as well against Congress as the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled in hearing."

 
Yeah I understand the perjury issue but the claims of influencing Lewinski's testimony were still part of the articles drawn up, correct? If so hasn't a standard of some fashion now been established? And if that's true hasn't Trump gone way beyond what Clinton was alleged to have done? 
Under the Federal Code, influencing Lewinsky would be under the section on "witness tampering."  Article of Impeachment have never, to my knowledge, confined themselves to just stating a criminal offense under the US Code.  For Nixon and Clinton, "obstruction" was defined broadly and not specifically with regard to any statute.  When they tried him, however, reference was made to the witness tampering statute. 

There's a more general obstruction statute.  I don't know if you read the nerdy argument between Henry Ford and Aerial Assault, but suffice it to say that there is some argument that this statute doesn't cover what Trump did.  Which is weird.  We're kind of jumping ahead, and I haven't even read all the cases those two flung at each other.  The true answer to your question, IMO, is that there is probably a colorable claim for obstruction but no need to jump the guy by trying to assert it now.  Because it's an even better claim when we know more about what Trump might have been trying to keep secret.  Or, on the other hand, Trump's action might look more innocent if we find that it really all is a nothingburger. 

 
I think that all of that falls better under treason or high crimes..... it's semantic I agree.  And Presidents have refused to enforce many laws.  The lack of use of the power of the Executive is not necessarily a bad thing, and it shouldn't be impeachable............. in most circumstances.  

My intellectual problem is that "bribery" in the political arena is impossible to define, nowhere and everywhere.  There is almost no political difference between what you laid out and a President simply being able to raise a billion dollars to run for office from the people that would benefit from the act complained of in one way or the other.  The basis of fund raise is quid pro quo.  I don't find it an evil in and of itself.
It just seems weird to disregard one of the specific offenses regarded as impeachable in the constitution.  Or trying to fit it under Treason which also has a specific definition that is far further from that than bribery. 

 
That's a weird argument.  The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the United States.  How can the President faithfully execute the laws when he executes what he believes in good faith is an illegal law?  
I just want to say up front I acknowledge I can lead with my heart and not my mind. I realize you're well versed in things that matter and I defer. So I think I might fail in being actually, you know, "right".

Having said that, to answer your question, IMO that is the way our system is set up. Congress writes the laws, the President (who essentially 'presides') executes them, and our Courts say what is or is not Constitutional - not the President. In general but especially in the wake of a civil war a president deciding what laws he does or does not want to execute is an extremely dangerous thing. At that time the whole point had been the wholeness of the Union and the authority of the US Federal government. On the back end of that a President saying hell no what you say does not go was self-defeating on a principle that thousands of lives had just fought over. In reality it wasn't just Stanton, the SOW was issuing orders to generals and soldiers in the field. An occupation was on, in-country, and IIRC I think an actual appointment of a governor was at stake. These were big, nation affecting things.

Particularly when his position is that the law unconstitutionally intrudes upon his Article II powers?  Remember, the courts don't issue advisory opinions.  The only way to get judicial review when Congress and the President disagree is for the President to take action to make it a ripe controversy.
This is a better point, however that is not how AJ handled it. He just ignored Congress. Congress passing the law (and there was more than one where AJ had flouted Congressional authority IIRC) made the situation ripe for controversy. It is hard to use modern tactics for things going on in 1867 but I am pretty sure petitions for restraining orders, mandamus and injunctions existed back then. The USSC would have heard the case as a Constitutional one straight off. Can you imagine a president simply defying Congress on matters of war because he simply felt it was his prerogative regardless of the laws they passed to constrain him? That is very dangerous constitutional territory IMO. 

 
Not Tim, but the Articles of Impeachment with Andrew Johnson included stuff outside the Tenure in Office Act.  One of the articles includes the accusation that he did "make and declare, with a loud voice, certain intemperate, inflammatory and scandalous harangues, and therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces, as well against Congress as the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled in hearing."
Thank you, that was my subtle point, and it's one I like to point out. I do think that very idea is built in to the whole concept of impeachment. I appreciate the response.

 
So let's jump ahead since I think a lot of people are more interested in whether Obstruction of Justice counts as a High Crime or Misdemeanor.  My answer (which is not THE answer, just AN answer) is sometimes yes and sometimes no. 

For the sake of argument, let's just assume that perjury qualifies as a category of obstruction instead of a separate offense.

So Clinton lied in a deposition.  Under oath.  He willfully mislead the Court.  While he was serving as President.  But virtually all Democrats, and most independents, didn't think that was impeachable at the time.  Why?

 
I think that all of that falls better under treason or high crimes..... it's semantic I agree.  And Presidents have refused to enforce many laws.  The lack of use of the power of the Executive is not necessarily a bad thing, and it shouldn't be impeachable............. in most circumstances.  

My intellectual problem is that "bribery" in the political arena is impossible to define, nowhere and everywhere.  There is almost no political difference between what you laid out and a President simply being able to raise a billion dollars to run for office from the people that would benefit from the act complained of in one way or the other.  The basis of fund raise is quid pro quo.  I don't find it an evil in and of itself.
Except in the Rosneft example there would also probably be FCPA violations.

 
. Can you imagine a president simply defying Congress on matters of war because he simply felt it was his prerogative regardless of the laws they passed to constrain him? That is very dangerous constitutional territory IMO. 
It's not hard to imagine.  It's happened a lot in our history.  That's pretty much the most common Article I/Article II conflict.  The War Powers Act, Truman's steel seizures, the Great White Fleet.

 
Not Tim, but the Articles of Impeachment with Andrew Johnson included stuff outside the Tenure in Office Act.  One of the articles includes the accusation that he did "make and declare, with a loud voice, certain intemperate, inflammatory and scandalous harangues, and therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces, as well against Congress as the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled in hearing."
This was actually the point I was making. It's not revisionism. Johnson was an awful President and perhaps he deserved to be removed. But many of the charges he faced were ridiculous, which goes to the argument that it's highly subjective. 

 
So Clinton lied in a deposition.  Under oath.  He willfully mislead the Court.  While he was serving as President.  But virtually all Democrats, and most independents, didn't think that was impeachable at the time.  Why?
Because he lied about sex, not about anything to do with duties as President. Therefore not worthy of removal. 

I believe Clinton should have been censured by Comgress; that was the proper punishment. Impeachment took it too far, IMO. 

 
Johnson faced some ridiculous charges, but the gravamen of the charge against him was that he refused to allow Congress to restrain his power as the chief of the Executive branch.  And on the flip side, Congress felt that he was encroaching on their Constitutional prerogative.

This was a constitutional crisis.  I think that tells us something about what type of offenses seem impeachable. 

Let's look at in another way.  Consider two scenarios. 

Scenario One: Trump lies, under oath, in a deposition in civil case while serving as President.  Maybe one of the libel cases coming out the sexual assault accusations. 

Scenario Two:  Trump defies a subpoena from the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Both are, in the broadest terms, obstruction of justice.  Are they both "impeachable?"  Neither?  Or is one more impeachable than the other?

 
It's not hard to imagine.  It's happened a lot in our history.  That's pretty much the most common Article I/Article II conflict.  The War Powers Act, Truman's steel seizures, the Great White Fleet.
And Truman was slapped down by the USSC - he did not just blatantly ignore an order of Congress that I recall, he just exceeded his power but it went through the SC.

No one has flagrantly defied the WPA that I can recall and no president (I believe) has challenged it - and the Great White Fleet did not actually go to war, it just sailed around the globe. Johnson and the SOW were responsible for appointing governors and generals (who were actually governing btw) at a time of such unrest that real resumption of insurrection was possible as a result. I know here in NO then the capital of LA there was a pitched battle and federal forces were driven out as late as 1874. The real existence of the Union was still in doubt.

 
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Because he lied about sex, not about anything to do with duties as President. Therefore not worthy of removal. 

I believe Clinton should have been censured by Comgress; that was the proper punishment. Impeachment took it too far, IMO. 
So if he had lied about financial matters from before when he was President you'd feel the same?

 
It just seems weird to disregard one of the specific offenses regarded as impeachable in the constitution.  Or trying to fit it under Treason which also has a specific definition that is far further from that than bribery. 
I don't know if I would disregard the language.  I'm just wary of using bribery without something more and having that something more be really concrete.  Hamilton if Federalist 65 wrote,

A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.

The delicacy and magnitude of a trust which so deeply concerns the political reputation and existence of every man engaged in the administration of public affairs, speak for themselves. The difficulty of placing it rightly, in a government resting entirely on the basis of periodical elections, will as readily be perceived, when it is considered that the most conspicuous characters in it will, from that circumstance, be too often the leaders or the tools of the most cunning or the most numerous faction, and on this account, can hardly be expected to possess the requisite neutrality towards those whose conduct may be the subject of scrutiny.

The convention, it appears, thought the Senate the most fit depositary of this important trust. Those who can best discern the intrinsic difficulty of the thing, will be least hasty in condemning that opinion, and will be most inclined to allow due weight to the arguments which may be supposed to have produced it.

What, it may be asked, is the true spirit of the institution itself? Is it not designed as a method of NATIONAL INQUEST into the conduct of public men? - Publis

My concern with just using bribery as it can be defined from a criminal statute is that I can probably take an hour and show how every President since Roosevelt has violated the statute at least in theory.  There just needs to be something more to be so that we don't turn the executive branch into a powerless face at the hands of a House of Representatives fueled by the very passions that Hamilton knew were going to be there (and as an aside, why the original structure of the Senate was important but I can't nerd out on impeachment, Andrew Johnson and the 17th Amendment at the same time or I won't be able to walk tomorrow).

 
So let's jump ahead since I think a lot of people are more interested in whether Obstruction of Justice counts as a High Crime or Misdemeanor.  My answer (which is not THE answer, just AN answer) is sometimes yes and sometimes no. 

For the sake of argument, let's just assume that perjury qualifies as a category of obstruction instead of a separate offense.

So Clinton lied in a deposition.  Under oath.  He willfully mislead the Court.  While he was serving as President.  But virtually all Democrats, and most independents, didn't think that was impeachable at the time.  Why?
Because it wasn't an act that violated the trust of the country and the execution of the office and didn't concern the faithful execution of the powers of the President.

 
Can you imagine a president simply defying Congress on matters of war because he simply felt it was his prerogative regardless of the laws they passed to constrain him? That is very dangerous constitutional territory IMO. 
I think we live in that world today and not just because of Trump.  The interplay of the war powers since the end of World War II are constitutional, unconstitutional, congressional, extra-constitutional and just plain weird sometimes.  

 
A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.
So it sounds like Hamilton and Tim are saying the same thing right?  Violations of public trust.  Offenses that do some sort of violence to the very institutions of our government.  We can all probably agree, without getting into the details, that bribery and treason are those types of offense.

So is that the mirror through which we view the undefined High Crimes and Misdemeanors?  We're on page 2, and we've already gotten to my answer.  Yes, that's how we define an impeachable offense.  Offenses that fundamentally weaken our government. 

 
does it have to be that he committed the crime or bad stuff while he was president or connected to being president or could they impeach him if mueller and boys find a bunch of financial crimes going back decades take that to the riddle me that bank bromigo

 
Now if Clinton as President had asked Lewinsky to lie, or if he had paid her to keep her mouth shut during his term in office, that's a different story. That would then IMO deserve removal. 

 
But are there are offenses that themselves are so serious that even if they are not tied to public behavior or responsibilities that may nevertheless be impeachable? 

If for instance, it could be proven that Trump was abusing underage girls on Jeffrey Epstein's creepy sex island (I'm not endorsing the truth of these stories, which I do not believe.)?

 

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