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Antifa: Left Wing Militants on the Rise (1 Viewer)

Hi guys, I'm new to the party here, but here's how I see it - maybe someone can explain if I'm wrong:

1. White nationalists exist.  Actually, they have been a part of this country since our founding - not something we should be proud of, but something we have to acknowlege.  They have a looong history of violence and have worn many names: Slave owners, KKK, Neo Nazi, Proud Boys, etc., and many completely unorganized regular Joe's.  Violence isn't new amongst this group - hundreds of years of violent demonstrations, the highlight being outright rebellion (1860s).  Examples of violence include lynchings, beatings, burning churches, mass shootings, and most recently, vehicular homicide.

2. Historically, society has looked the other way, in the name of pragmatism, accommodation, and an unwillingness to escalate.  1860 was an exception, as well as enforcement of Civil Rights a full century later.

3. Some members of society have had enough and choose to meet white nationalistic violence head-on - meet violence with violence.  This seems to be the first time that it's not the State checking white nationalism.

4. Some of the counter-protests get carried away and break some windows, punch some NAZIs, etc.  I am not aware of any serious injuries or deaths attributed to the counter-white nationalism movement.

5. Our president claims "both sides are guilty, and some folks try to equate white nationalism and counter-protests.  Frankly, I question the motives of anyone equating the two.

 
moleculo said:
Hi guys, I'm new to the party here, but here's how I see it - maybe someone can explain if I'm wrong:

1. White nationalists exist.  Actually, they have been a part of this country since our founding - not something we should be proud of, but something we have to acknowlege.  They have a looong history of violence and have worn many names: Slave owners, KKK, Neo Nazi, Proud Boys, etc., and many completely unorganized regular Joe's.  Violence isn't new amongst this group - hundreds of years of violent demonstrations, the highlight being outright rebellion (1860s).  Examples of violence include lynchings, beatings, burning churches, mass shootings, and most recently, vehicular homicide.

2. Historically, society has looked the other way, in the name of pragmatism, accommodation, and an unwillingness to escalate.  1860 was an exception, as well as enforcement of Civil Rights a full century later.

3. Some members of society have had enough and choose to meet white nationalistic violence head-on - meet violence with violence.  This seems to be the first time that it's not the State checking white nationalism.

4. Some of the counter-protests get carried away and break some windows, punch some NAZIs, etc.  I am not aware of any serious injuries or deaths attributed to the counter-white nationalism movement.

5. Our president claims "both sides are guilty, and some folks try to equate white nationalism and counter-protests.  Frankly, I question the motives of anyone equating the two.
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Perfect 

 
Ilov80s said:
Sure but there are some antagonists looking for trouble in those large crowds as well. 
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Yes. Now, is that “Antifa” or “some people in the Antifa movement”?

Just for full disclosure, I do intend to ask a follow up regarding membership in right wing organizations defining their entire organization, as well. 

 
Also, “he was out there looking for a fight” doesn’t equate to “he is an evil terrorist.”

A lot of these guys are probably jerks, and nobody I’d ever spend time around, but it’s not like in my youth I never went out on the town spoiling for a fight with any willing participant. And my motivations were a lot less pure than “I hate Nazis.”  

Every person at that protest - on either side - is aware of what’s going to happen.  Some people fight violent hate with peace and love, some with logic and words, and some fight it with a baseball bat. And all options were in full force.  I weirdly have more sympathy for Richard Spencer getting punched in the head while giving an interview on the street than I do some guy with tape on his hands so he doesn’t skin his knuckles fighting who got pummeled into the pavement. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Yes. Now, is that “Antifa” or “some people in the Antifa movement”?

Just for full disclosure, I do intend to ask a follow up regarding membership in right wing organizations defining their entire organization, as well. 
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I think one of the core tenets of antifa is the willingness to engage with fascism-meet them at whatever level is necessary. Violence is a major part of it. Not everyone in antifa is violent, but it's a significant component of it. 

 
Ilov80s said:
My point is showing pictures of harmless people- kids, old ladies, etc. isn’t a good way to argue that a group is peaceful or no danger. 
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I'm sure there were some fine people among the Proud Boys etc not there for a fight but merely to shout vile racist slogans and support white supremacy 

 
Ilov80s said:
I think one of the core tenets of antifa is the willingness to engage with fascism-meet them at whatever level is necessary. Violence is a major part of it. Not everyone in antifa is violent, but it's a significant component of it. 
Click to expand...
How significant do you believe it to be? And what do you mean by “in Antifa”?

I believe that a significant component of the antiabortion movement is men who believe women’s value to the world is primarily or solely as mothers.  Are you good with me labeling the anti abortion movement as simply being about getting women back in the kitchen and nursery? I’m not. 

 
And to be honest, I’m more than okay with meeting actual violent fascists with actual violence. There’s nothing wrong with that. The question is whether that’s what’s going on here. 

 
Henry Ford said:
How significant do you believe it to be? And what do you mean by “in Antifa”?

I believe that a significant component of the antiabortion movement is men who believe women’s value to the world is primarily or solely as mothers.  Are you good with me labeling the anti abortion movement as simply being about getting women back in the kitchen and nursery? I’m not. 
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It's pretty significant. Like the Proud Boys and the like, they often show up dressed for a fight and antagonize to initiate violence. By Antifa, I mean a loose collection of far left groups that seek to harass racists, fascists or white nationalists. I think most of the protesters there are not members of antifa though. Most are just people who want to show unity against hate and show that the hate groups are not welcome in their city. We kind of went through a lot of this before where I live in Dearborn when we would get out of town groups coming into to protest Sharia Law and all that BS. They would always be met by large crowds of angry citizens telling the protesters to go back home. It wasn't some big organized group, just residents of the city who didn't want people coming to their city to spew hate towards their neighbors. 

No, that is not how I would label the anti-abortion movement. 

 
Ilov80s said:
It's pretty significant. Like the Proud Boys and the like, they often show up dressed for a fight and antagonize to initiate violence. By Antifa, I mean a loose collection of far left groups that seek to harass racists, fascists or white nationalists. I think most of the protesters there are not members of antifa though. Most are just people who want to show unity against hate and show that the hate groups are not welcome in their city. We kind of went through a lot of this before where I live in Dearborn when we would get out of town groups coming into to protest Sharia Law and all that BS. They would always be met by large crowds of angry citizens telling the protesters to go back home. It wasn't some big organized group, just residents of the city who didn't want people coming to their city to spew hate towards their neighbors. 

No, that is not how I would label the anti-abortion movement.
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Those people joining the protest and telling the bad people to leave ARE “members of Antifa.”  Because “Antifa” doesn’t have, like, a membership per se. that’s sort of my point. 

You are only defining the group by the people you don’t like in it. And that’s not the whole group. 

 
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JohnnyU said:
Wasn't it intended to be a peaceful rally?  We all know Antifa wouldn't let that happen.  Also, I saw an interview with the Mayor prior to the protest and he ensured everyone they would keep the two groups separate.  What happened to that plan?
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Uh its never peaceful when the proud boys show up 

 
Henry Ford said:
Notice how he gets punched several times and then the evil liberals drag everyone off of him and hold everyone back because he is no longer a danger and they don’t pile on.  Such evil!
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Thank god he wasn't black the Proud Boys would've curbed stomped him too 

 
Henry Ford said:
Those people joining the protest and telling the bad people to leave ARE “members of Antifa.”  Because “Antifa” doesn’t have, like, a membership per se. that’s sort of my point. 

You are only defining the group by the people you don’t like in it. And that’s not the whole group. 
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Not sure that I agree that anyone who shows up to protest NAZIs is antifa. There isn't a membership but there are groups, websites, social media, etc. where they gather, share ideas, etc. I think the core difference between someone who is just counter-protesting and antifa is the militant aspect. 

 
Ilov80s said:
If some stranger pushed me and tried to tackle me, I would probably throw some punches too and I wouldn’t consider it evil.   I think all these protestors and anti- protestors are weirdos. I think the best thing would be to mostly ignore the Proud Boys and the like since they thrive on all this attention. 
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And people wonder how Trump got elected? This is why. They didn't view him as a threat so they didn't pay him no mind then he won and they were stunned. The Proud Boys are in the Southern Poverty Law book as a Hate Group. You don't ignore them. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Not sure that I agree that anyone who shows up to protest NAZIs is antifa. There isn't a membership but there are groups, websites, social media, etc. where they gather, share ideas, etc. I think the core difference between someone who is just counter-protesting and antifa is the militant aspect. 
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Then you are defining Antifa as the part of Antifa that you don’t like. It’s no different than someone saying Republicans are racist, xenophobic wall-builders or men are rapists.  

 
DJackson10 said:
And people wonder how Trump got elected? This is why. They didn't view him as a threat so they didn't pay him no mind then he won and they were stunned. The Proud Boys are in the Southern Poverty Law book as a Hate Group. You don't ignore them. 
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Actually it's the total opposite. Every media platform in the country put Trump on TV 24/7 because it was good for ratings. IMO they legitimized him by giving him far more time than any other candidate. 

 
moleculo said:
Hi guys, I'm new to the party here, but here's how I see it - maybe someone can explain if I'm wrong:

1. White nationalists exist.  Actually, they have been a part of this country since our founding - not something we should be proud of, but something we have to acknowlege.  They have a looong history of violence and have worn many names: Slave owners, KKK, Neo Nazi, Proud Boys, etc., and many completely unorganized regular Joe's.  Violence isn't new amongst this group - hundreds of years of violent demonstrations, the highlight being outright rebellion (1860s).  Examples of violence include lynchings, beatings, burning churches, mass shootings, and most recently, vehicular homicide.

2. Historically, society has looked the other way, in the name of pragmatism, accommodation, and an unwillingness to escalate.  1860 was an exception, as well as enforcement of Civil Rights a full century later.

3. Some members of society have had enough and choose to meet white nationalistic violence head-on - meet violence with violence.  This seems to be the first time that it's not the State checking white nationalism.

4. Some of the counter-protests get carried away and break some windows, punch some NAZIs, etc.  I am not aware of any serious injuries or deaths attributed to the counter-white nationalism movement.

5. Our president claims "both sides are guilty, and some folks try to equate white nationalism and counter-protests.  Frankly, I question the motives of anyone equating the two.
Click to expand...
1 is a big on they have been violent for yrs but like everything else the Right deflects it onto others

2 I agre

3 Yep I have and honestly if one of these scud muffins yelled in my face they'd be eating their food out of a tube for the next several months. They can have their views just know if you start provoking people don't cry after your ### is handed too you for it

4. I agree

5. Motives are easy it's the whole deflect and not take blame but also the copout of I didn't defend them and went after both sides without really doing so. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Then you are defining Antifa as the part of Antifa that you don’t like. It’s no different than someone saying Republicans are racist, xenophobic wall-builders or men are rapists.  
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It's how the ADL defines them. You think anyone that shows up to counter protest is antifa? I don't. 

 
JohnnyU said:
I'm done for the day with this garbage.  Surely I can find something to do with my family besides being on this board arguing the merits of hate groups.
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You were on this board with your family? Were there conflicting arguments about hate groups  among your family?

Were they glad that you found something else for them to do?

 
msommer said:
I'm sure there were some fine people among the Proud Boys etc not there for a fight but merely to shout vile racist slogans and support white supremacy 
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racists no matter violent or not are a waste of life. Have zero business living. If it was up to me I'd Germany all of the White Nationalist and make it illegal. Put them all on the terror watch list and start hunting. I want leaders heads on platters (Not literally) cut off the heads of the snake's and you got nothing but a bunch of groups that are barely working

 
Henry Ford said:
And to be honest, I’m more than okay with meeting actual violent fascists with actual violence. There’s nothing wrong with that. The question is whether that’s what’s going on here. 
Click to expand...
I'm basing this off experience but I'm from Philly and the Proud Boys came here last Nov it was the proud boys and other right extremist trying to get involved. I just happened to accidentally with a few buddies walk into the middle of the protest with friends after being out for lunch with them. We quickly knew which side of the fence we were on. From what we saw was mostly Right Wing Extremist trying to start #### the people on the other side (wouldn't even say it was ANTIFA just a mix of good hearted people who hate the racist slime) trying to provoke them. At one point a few proud boys got into the center of our group and tried to pick a fight but the cops and legal people quickly stopped it. Fun fact one of the clowns is a proud boy facing charges in NYC for the brawl in OCT of 2018. Our side was fairly peaceful even people shouting on airhorns and the like don't fight unless its self defense they want to provoke us so they can claim self defense etc etc. 

Proud Boys get greeted in Philly with Gritty and Anti Facist signs and groups

 
Ilov80s said:
It's pretty significant. Like the Proud Boys and the like, they often show up dressed for a fight and antagonize to initiate violence. By Antifa, I mean a loose collection of far left groups that seek to harass racists, fascists or white nationalists. I think most of the protesters there are not members of antifa though. Most are just people who want to show unity against hate and show that the hate groups are not welcome in their city. We kind of went through a lot of this before where I live in Dearborn when we would get out of town groups coming into to protest Sharia Law and all that BS. They would always be met by large crowds of angry citizens telling the protesters to go back home. It wasn't some big organized group, just residents of the city who didn't want people coming to their city to spew hate towards their neighbors. 

No, that is not how I would label the anti-abortion movement. 
Click to expand...
Read the last paragraph of the article I posted about the Proud Boys in Philly. Proud Boy from Texas showed up in fighting gear, helmet etc and even admitted he was looking for a fight. 

 
Ilov80s said:
It's how the ADL defines them. You think anyone that shows up to counter protest is antifa? I don't. 
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That is definitely not how the ADL defines Antifa. It talks about that part of Antifa, and others. 

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-the-antifa

No, not everyone who shows up to protest is Antifa.  But many are. And yes, the ADL refers to violent tactics by “SOME” Antifa.

Their presence at a protest is intended to intimidate and dissuade racists, but the use of violent measures by

some antifa against their adversaries can create a vicious, self-defeating cycle of attacks, counter-attacks and blame.
Click to expand...

It’s one set of the group. People who are Antifa  also work online and in other roles. It is not just an organization of street violence.  Though it certainly has that element. 

 
Sounds like the Proud Boys are declaring victory. They said their goal was to bring negative National attention to antifa and with Trump tweeting about them, they got what they wanted.

 
Henry Ford said:
That is definitely not how the ADL defines Antifa. It talks about that part of Antifa, and others. 

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-the-antifa

No, not everyone who shows up to protest is Antifa.  But many are. And yes, the ADL refers to violent tactics by “SOME” Antifa.

It’s one set of the group. People who are Antifa  also work online and in other roles. It is not just an organization of street violence.  Though it certainly has that element. 
Click to expand...
These violent counter-protesters are often members of the “antifa” (short for “antifascist”), a loose collection of groups, networks and individuals who believe in active, aggressive opposition to far right-wing movements.

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting active aggression.

 
Every definition I see for Antifa includes militant. I’m certainly not saying they are a terrorist group or in anyway on equal footing as the groups they oppose. 

 
Ilov80s said:
These violent counter-protesters are often members of the “antifa” (short for “antifascist”), a loose collection of groups, networks and individuals who believe in active, aggressive opposition to far right-wing movements.

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting active aggression.
Click to expand...
Aggressive, confrontational tactics do not have to be violent. 

 
Henry Ford said:
The ADL does not use the word militant in their entire page discussing Antifa. 
Click to expand...
Fair lol. We just won’t fully agree here. I think antifa is more of a philosophy than an actual group. While they do many many things that aren’t physical violence in the streets, I do think antifa is very much ready to engage when confronted. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Fair lol. We just won’t fully agree here. I think antifa is more of a philosophy than an actual group. While they do many many things that aren’t physical violence in the streets, I do think antifa is very much ready to engage when confronted. 
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Sure.  When the crowds of people telling the racists to go home near you were confronted, did they just shut up and leave?

 
DJackson10 said:
And people wonder how Trump got elected? This is why. They didn't view him as a threat so they didn't pay him no mind then he won and they were stunned. The Proud Boys are in the Southern Poverty Law book as a Hate Group. You don't ignore them. 
Click to expand...
What is it they hate?, there are people of color in the Proud boys.

 
GROOT said:
What is it they hate?, there are people of color in the Proud boys.
Click to expand...
The Proud Boys say they have an initiation process that has four stages and includes hazing. The first stage is a loyalty oath, on the order of "I’m a proud Western chauvinist, I refuse to apologize for creating the modern world"; the second is getting punched until the person recites pop culture trivia, such as the names of five breakfast cereals; the third is getting a tattoo and agreeing to not masturbate; and the fourth is getting into a major fight "for the cause.
Click to expand...
They hate jerking off, Groot.  Jerking off.

 
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