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Antifa: Left Wing Militants on the Rise


msommer

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40 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I regret now that I participated in this thread this morning. I don't like Antifa for the reasons I stated, and I won't take any of them back. But I have come to agree with Tobias that this issue is being used by some conservatives (and the President for that matter) to create a moral equivalency, and it's pretty shameful.

Just because what one person does maybe shameful, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make a stand against this behavior, its clearly wrong.  I assume since you are from the West Coast, you have a lot of young people that are prone to getting pulled into this type of group.  You, have to be a leader and stop this.  Everyone should stop both sides of this hatred.  I'm telling you, more young people are getting pulled into this kinda stuff that you would like to believe.  More than at any point in your lifetime.  They need mentors in their lives that also might not agree with the President, but need to know how to deal with it.  You are the type of person to change their lives in a good way, stay strong. 

Edited by dschuler
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43 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I regret now that I participated in this thread this morning. I don't like Antifa for the reasons I stated, and I won't take any of them back. But I have come to agree with Tobias that this issue is being used by some conservatives (and the President for that matter) to create a moral equivalency, and it's pretty shameful.

Both are bad and it's ok to admit it. Can we agree that the white supremacists are worse?

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3 hours ago, HellToupee said:

Both are bad and it's ok to admit it. Can we agree that the white supremacists are worse?

Pretty sure you will get no argument on the latter. 

I think some people can't really admit the former. It's the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing". Same way we got allied with Stalin. Though there wasn't really much choice during WWII. Today we can pick who we align ourselves with in a more discerning fashion. And I don't want to be aligned with violent and vandalous Marxists/anarchists, no matter how viscerally satisfying it is to see Nazis get punched.

Edited by RedmondLonghorn
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6 hours ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Pretty sure you will get no argument on the latter. 

I think some people can't really admit the former. It's the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing". Same way we got allied with Stalin. Though there wasn't really much choice during WWII. Today we can pick who we align ourselves with in a more discerning fashion. And I don't want to be aligned with violent and vandalous Marxists/anarchists, no matter how viscerally satisfying it is to see Nazis get punched.

I'm a little disturbed at the number of people posting stuff along the lines of "Well, if I have to pick one side, I know which side I'm on," as if we're actually being asked to choose which of two sewers to reside in.  Trump is clearly at least partly to blame for breaking down some of the social norms that we've enjoyed up until now, but there are way too many people out there who seem to be jumping at the chance to turn to violence.  (I understand that a lot of this is just middle aged me being i-tough guys on the internet, but still).

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23 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm a little disturbed at the number of people posting stuff along the lines of "Well, if I have to pick one side, I know which side I'm on," as if we're actually being asked to choose which of two sewers to reside in.  Trump is clearly at least partly to blame for breaking down some of the social norms that we've enjoyed up until now, but there are way too many people out there who seem to be jumping at the chance to turn to violence.  (I understand that a lot of this is just middle aged me being i-tough guys on the internet, but still).

Sorry ivan...you want to be lumped in with nazis??? No thanks...

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6 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

Sorry ivan...you want to be lumped in with nazis??? No thanks...

That's the point.  I don't have to choose between Nazis and communists.  They're both terrible and there are a bunch of other respectable schools of thought out there that I can align myself with.

(My apologies if you were going for sarcasm.  It's hard to tell sometimes in these threads).

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Both are bad and it's ok to admit it. Can we agree that the white supremacists are worse?

The entire point is that neither is ok. Giving one side a pass because you feel that their morality is in a better place is ridiculous.

6 hours ago, Homer J Simpson said:

Republicans, no. Nazis, yes. 

And again I see references to shooting Nazis. As much as you hate them what it boils down to is advocating the killing of American citizens for legally exorcising their constitutional rights.

So what’s the take here? The ends justify the means? You support vigilantly justice?

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4 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

That's the point.  I don't have to choose between Nazis and communists.  They're both terrible and there are a bunch of other respectable schools of thought out there that I can align myself with.

(My apologies if you were going for sarcasm.  It's hard to tell sometimes in these threads).

No you dont....who is supporting communism?? Don't let Trump change the narrative for you to some alt left vs alt right battle....these guys in Charlottesville were 100% neo Nazi hate mongers....preaching anti Jewish anti black anti everything hate......were there antifa people there? Yep...but so what...

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Just now, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

No you dont....who is supporting communism?? Don't let Trump change the narrative for you to some alt left vs alt right battle....these guys in Charlottesville were 100% neo Nazi hate mongers....preaching anti Jewish anti black anti everything hate......were there antifa people there? Yep...but so what...

I said this in the fourth post of the thread.

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33 minutes ago, schaef2k said:

The entire point is that neither is ok. Giving one side a pass because you feel that their morality is in a better place is ridiculous.

And again I see references to shooting Nazis. As much as you hate them what it boils down to is advocating the killing of American citizens for legally exorcising their constitutional rights.

So what’s the take here? The ends justify the means? You support vigilantly justice?

Yes. 

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58 minutes ago, schaef2k said:

The entire point is that neither is ok. Giving one side a pass because you feel that their morality is in a better place is ridiculous.

And again I see references to shooting Nazis. As much as you hate them what it boils down to is advocating the killing of American citizens for legally exorcising their constitutional rights.

So what’s the take here? The ends justify the means? You support vigilantly justice?

 

24 minutes ago, Homer J Simpson said:

Yes. 

Wow, ok then, thanks for being honest

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Maybe it's the echo chamber here, but the biggest issue I have is the very clear message of "if you're not with us, you're a Nazi," that's percolating through the thread.
There's nothing quicker that will drive more people away from the issue than this type of rhetoric. What percentage of FBG take part in these discussions? 5%? Less? Are all the shark-pool only folks Nazis? Many people aren't going to care. Many people are going to focus on the only color that really matters.

BLM/OWS had casual support in NYC until roads were shutdown and trains were delayed. Do not underestimate the percentage of people that just want to live their lives and aren't going to be creating homemade flamethrowers and leading Dodge Challenger charges. Both sides went to Charlottesville looking for a fight. The behavior was confrontational. Contrast with the most powerful civil rights images around the world. The USA in the 60s, South Africa in the 80s, Tienanmen Man, Gandhi and India should be the guides to fight hate. Not political rallies of the 1910's.

I don't trust or want Nazis to change. I'd expect better behavior from those standing up to them.

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm a little disturbed at the number of people posting stuff along the lines of "Well, if I have to pick one side, I know which side I'm on," as if we're actually being asked to choose which of two sewers to reside in.  Trump is clearly at least partly to blame for breaking down some of the social norms that we've enjoyed up until now, but there are way too many people out there who seem to be jumping at the chance to turn to violence.  (I understand that a lot of this is just middle aged me being i-tough guys on the internet, but still).

I was thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days. I agree with everything you've said really. On an intellectual level it's fully clear that violence on either side should be rejected. A healthy functioning society requires civility in interaction.

Having said all that I find myself privately cheering when the whole white supremacy/neo nazi coalition is met with fierce resistance, particularly when that coalition shows armed for battle and intimidation. I know I shouldn't viscerally applaud violent resistance when it happens but it feels like rolling over otherwise.

I certainly fit your characterization (minus the I-tough guy part, don't think I've ever acted the tough guy) but I guess my response is rationalized by the distinction that one side is not only "evil" but is actively advocating that position, while the other side is defying.

Given initial premises, that distinction is not logical but there it is. At least it's a private reaction vs a public advocacy of violence (I guess).

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19 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

First of all, that's the opposite of free speech.  Second, we also fought wars against imperial Japan, Vietnamese communists, Sunni Iraqis, and a bunch of other folks.  You don't get to go around slugging all those people.  Sorry, but you need to grow up and join civil society.

Let me know when these groups have a rally in Virginia....

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4 hours ago, schaef2k said:

The entire point is that neither is ok. Giving one side a pass because you feel that their morality is in a better place is ridiculous.

And again I see references to shooting Nazis. As much as you hate them what it boils down to is advocating the killing of American citizens for legally exorcising their constitutional rights.

So what’s the take here? The ends justify the means? You support vigilantly justice?

Legally exercising their constitutional rights? Whatever. You got these guys waving Nazi flags and shouting hatred towards different races/religions....

And we should just let them go on with their "peaceful" march? 

Seriously?

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3 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Legally exercising their constitutional rights? Whatever. You got these guys waving Nazi flags and shouting hatred towards different races/religions....

And we should just let them go on with their "peaceful" march? 

Seriously?

The Constitution is more important than sticking it to a handful of Nazis.

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9 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Legally exercising their constitutional rights? Whatever. You got these guys waving Nazi flags and shouting hatred towards different races/religions....

And we should just let them go on with their "peaceful" march? 

Seriously?

Yes and yes.

Threads like this are why I'm glad we have an ACLU and Supreme Court.

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3 hours ago, Gawain said:

Maybe it's the echo chamber here, but the biggest issue I have is the very clear message of "if you're not with us, you're a Nazi," that's percolating through the thread.
There's nothing quicker that will drive more people away from the issue than this type of rhetoric. What percentage of FBG take part in these discussions? 5%? Less? Are all the shark-pool only folks Nazis? Many people aren't going to care. Many people are going to focus on the only color that really matters.

BLM/OWS had casual support in NYC until roads were shutdown and trains were delayed. Do not underestimate the percentage of people that just want to live their lives and aren't going to be creating homemade flamethrowers and leading Dodge Challenger charges. Both sides went to Charlottesville looking for a fight. The behavior was confrontational. Contrast with the most powerful civil rights images around the world. The USA in the 60s, South Africa in the 80s, Tienanmen Man, Gandhi and India should be the guides to fight hate. Not political rallies of the 1910's.

I don't trust or want Nazis to change. I'd expect better behavior from those standing up to them.

South Africa was not peaceful in the 80'ies.

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33 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Legally exercising their constitutional rights? Whatever. You got these guys waving Nazi flags and shouting hatred towards different races/religions....

And we should just let them go on with their "peaceful" march? 

Seriously?

Yes.  And we should then continue to talk about how awful they are.  And by we I mean our president and he should actually start doing so. 

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1 minute ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

Yep....what we aren't allowed to protest a protest?? How unamerican

Well you're assuming you know who threw the first punch so to speak. As far as I know we don't have any info on that. 

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5 minutes ago, RBM said:

 Which leads to violence.

Violence is never the answer.  But surely, you aren't claiming that a group has the right to freely assemble and speak on an issue without other groups having that same right to freely assemble and protect the first group's stance on the issue, are you?

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19 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Seems like we need to get these losers together with the other losers and let them kill each other.

What is the matter with you?

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4 hours ago, Ranethe said:

I was thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days. I agree with everything you've said really. On an intellectual level it's fully clear that violence on either side should be rejected. A healthy functioning society requires civility in interaction.

Having said all that I find myself privately cheering when the whole white supremacy/neo nazi coalition is met with fierce resistance, particularly when that coalition shows armed for battle and intimidation. I know I shouldn't viscerally applaud violent resistance when it happens but it feels like rolling over otherwise.

I certainly fit your characterization (minus the I-tough guy part, don't think I've ever acted the tough guy) but I guess my response is rationalized by the distinction that one side is not only "evil" but is actively advocating that position, while the other side is defying.

Given initial premises, that distinction is not logical but there it is. At least it's a private reaction vs a public advocacy of violence (I guess).

I think you're response is human.  It's also probably fair to label it "retribution" - which is a very commonly accepted justification for punishment.  I'm very anti-violence in almost any circumstance but I'd be lying if I also didn't admit that a small part of me would take some satisfaction in seeing some white power idiot get punched or knowing that a convicted child rapist would be castrated and flogged, etc.    

But, as you stated, logic and reason needs to overcome this emotion.  It's what makes us better. 

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But the differences couldn’t be more profound. Yes, there are a small number of antifa counterprotesters who show up to scuffle with white supremacists when the latter mount a protest (if you’re unfamiliar, historian Mark Bray explains what antifa is). And yes, there have been other incidents, such as at Trump’s inaugural, in which antifa activists committed acts of vandalism. But the far right is 1) large; 2) highly organized; and most importantly, 3) directly tied to the president of the United States and the Republican Party.

Antifa is none of those things. It is tiny, not organized on a broad scale, and has precisely zero ties to any prominent Democrat. The president of the United States and leader of the Republican Party is celebrated and endorsed by the white supremacist right (“Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa,” tweeted David Duke Tuesday); the extreme left views Democrats as an enemy. Trump directly echoes and repeats the arguments and claims of the extreme right, as we saw him do on Tuesday; no elected Democrat shares the radical anti-capitalist ideas of the extreme left. Trump hired Stephen K. Bannon, who ran the white nationalist website Breitbart, which Bannon himself described as “the platform for the alt-right,” to run his campaign and then to be senior adviser in his White House.

It’s hard to know for certain how many converts the white nationalist movement has gained in the past year or two. But what we know for certain is that since Trump seized control of the Republican Party, all manner of far-right racial activists — white nationalists, white supremacists, neo-Nazis — have been emboldened to be more public and vocal about their rancid beliefs. Trump validated them and encouraged them as a candidate, and continues to do so as president.

No conservative can claim that he or she didn’t realize that’s what Trump was doing when they endorsed him, advocated for him and supported him. They accepted that Trump was an ignorant fool and a misogynistic creep and deeply corrupt — and they also accepted that he was welcoming the racist right with open arms. It’s nice that so many of them have come out and said they’re opposed to murderous Nazi terrorism. But however they might try to explain away their own complicity, they can’t blame it on liberals.

 

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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25 minutes ago, msommer said:

South Africa was not peaceful in the 80'ies.

I should do more reading. I guess my view of South Africa resistance to apartheid as:

Quote

The black South Africans’ overwhelming numerical majority made the use of massive noncooperation particularly effective when they started to mobilize in large numbers in the mid-1980s. Nonviolent action, despite its requirements of discipline and bravery in the face of repression, allowed participation by a far greater percentage of the population than the ANC’s exiled guerilla army, whose armed cadres could rarely even penetrate the country’s heavily-guarded borders.

https://popularresistance.org/mandela-violence-vs-nonviolence/

My only point is that the great 90% who really just want to be left alone are almost invariably turned off of the use of violence. It also removes an argument from the other side.

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I have no issue with some blame being placed on counter-protesters.  The advice I'd always heard as a younger man was that the best course of action was to stay home and let the KKK and such groups march without an audience.  Whatever happened to that idea? I agree with it.  It's not like anyone on the other side is going to chant out words of wisdom that will change others' worldviews.  Ever heard that saying that nothing good happens after 2:00 a.m.?  Well, nothing good happens at a white supremacist march as well.     

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19 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I have no issue with some blame being placed on counter-protesters.  The advice I'd always heard as a younger man was that the best course of action was to stay home and let the KKK and such groups march without an audience.  Whatever happened to that idea? I agree with it.  It's not like anyone on the other side is going to chant out words of wisdom that will change others' worldviews.  Ever heard that saying that nothing good happens after 2:00 a.m.?  Well, nothing good happens at a white supremacist march as well.     

exactly. The media has now made David Duke a star again for mentally deranged people

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The media has now made David Duke a star again for mentally deranged people

Mentally deranged people are going to find David Duke whether the media covers him or not. The difference now is that David Duke gets to show new recruits how the President of the United States has proclaimed that the KKK is on an equal pedestal with those who protest the KKK.

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1 hour ago, Gawain said:

I should do more reading. I guess my view of South Africa resistance to apartheid as:

https://popularresistance.org/mandela-violence-vs-nonviolence/

My only point is that the great 90% who really just want to be left alone are almost invariably turned off of the use of violence. It also removes an argument from the other side.

Solely on the topic of South Africa

state of emergency in 1980s

Liberation history timeline 1980-1989

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8 hours ago, Gawain said:

Maybe it's the echo chamber here, but the biggest issue I have is the very clear message of "if you're not with us, you're a Nazi," that's percolating through the thread.

We're not talking about metaphorical Nazis in this thread.

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5 hours ago, GROOT said:

exactly. The media has now made David Duke a star again for mentally deranged people

they love talking about him. They are giving him exactly what he wants and making him legit to the bottom feeders looking to wear a swell uniform

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3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

For what it's worth, I fully support efforts to infiltrate the KKK and neo-Nazi organizations by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies.  Those programs are completely warranted and justified.

Yeah, I had just deleted that post you quoted because, while there's often significant overlap, "right wing domestic terrorism" does not always equal "White Supremacy" or neo nazi ideology.

But I agree with you. I suppose any group advocating violence should be kept close, I just don't think far left groups are going to require the level of vigilance that far right groups will here.

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

For what it's worth, I fully support efforts to infiltrate the KKK and neo-Nazi organizations by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies.  Those programs are completely warranted and justified.

Kind of like cointelpro for the whites?

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