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Trump and the 16 women (2 Viewers)

Joe Mammy said:
Carroll writes that the Donna Karan coat-dress she wore that day “still hangs on the back of my closet door.”

Why would she save this coat-dress? She said he pulled down her "tights" and there has been no mention of any DNA?
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People react differently to traumatic events. Some will want to burn anything involved with the incident and want nothing to remind them of it. Others never have the strength to get rid of that tragic reminder and see doing that as protecting the attacker.

 
Joe Mammy said:
Carroll writes that the Donna Karan coat-dress she wore that day “still hangs on the back of my closet door.”

Why would she save this coat-dress? She said he pulled down her "tights" and there has been no mention of any DNA?
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She probably got it dry cleaned to get the Trump off.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Even if he lacked the time to fully express himself he may have cleared his throat, and that could be on the dress.
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For a moment I thought you were alluding to the old joke about the drunk who went onstage and claimed he could fart the Star Spangled Banner. 

 
zoonation said:
This accusation is almost certainly true.  Won’t matter.  
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The fact that it won't matter isn't even the interesting part.  Of course it won't matter, because for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point.  They can't really cheer an attempted rape in public discourse (although the Kavanaugh cheerleading came close), so they'll settle for attacking this woman's character and making up all kinds of horrible lies about her to undermine her credibility. It all comes from the same place.

The interesting part is that it will get less media coverage and scrutiny than Joe Biden touching a woman's shoulders, guaranteed.  Liberal media my ###.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
The fact that it won't matter isn't even the interesting part.  Of course it won't matter, because for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point.  They can't really cheer an attempted rape in public discourse (although the Kavanaugh cheerleading came close), so they'll settle for attacking this woman's character and making up all kinds of horrible lies about her to undermine her credibility. It all comes from the same place.

The interesting part is that it will get less media coverage and scrutiny than Joe Biden touching a woman's shoulders, guaranteed.  Liberal media my ###.
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I disagree pretty strongly with this statement.  A lot of my friends and family are Trump supporters and are not cruel in the least.    The problem you have here is lack of proof and in he said/she said cases they typically side with the politician if they like him.

 
Godsbrother said:
I disagree pretty strongly with this statement.  A lot of my friends and family are Trump supporters and are not cruel in the least.    The problem you have here is lack of proof and in he said/she said cases they typically side with the politician if they like him.
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This is not a he said/she said. This is a "he said/she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said" and on and on and on, because there are a ton of accusations and virtually all of them have corroborating evidence. And it's also a "she said/he admitted it on tape to Billy Bush while ogling a soap opera star."  And also a "she said/he is currently getting sued for defamation for claiming one of the assaults didn't happen and his defense is that the false denial was protected 'political speech.'" And also a "he said/she said but she is a widely respected journalist and he tells multiple confirmed lies every day, including about the alleged incident."

Also "lack of proof" should not be a problem in a case like this. Even in a court of law you need only to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, not prove it with 100% certainty. And this is not a court of law where the accused faces the prospect of incarceration, this is a court of public opinion where if the accused is most likely guilty and nobody cares it sends a strong message to our children that men can assault women with impunity.  The burden in that situation should be at most whether it is "more likely than not" that the incident took place.

I get that it's hard for people to reconcile what this man is all about with the fact that people they love and respect support Trump. I am very fortunate to not be in that position, and you and others have my sympathy.  But IMO there's very little question that many Trump supporters have some measure of resentment of "others" and bonds forged by coming together in support of his cruelty, as detailed in this famous article.  I don't know whether that describes your friends and family- obviously I hope it doesn't, and I have no reason to doubt you when you say that. But it sure rings true based on everything I've seen and heard from Trump reporters here and everywhere else.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
This is not a he said/she said. This is a "he said/she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said she said" and on and on and on, because there are a ton of accusations and virtually all of them have corroborating evidence. And it's also a "she said/he admitted it on tape to Billy Bush while ogling a soap opera star."  And also a "she said/he is currently getting sued for defamation for claiming one of the assaults didn't happen and his defense is that the false denial was protected 'political speech.'" And also a "he said/she said but she is a widely respected journalist and he tells multiple confirmed lies every day."

Also "lack of proof" should not be a problem in a case like this. Even in a court of law you need only to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, not prove it with 100% certainty. And this is not a court of law where the accused faces the prospect of incarceration, this is a court of public opinion where if the accused is most likely guilty and nobody cares it sends a strong message to our children that men can assault women with impunity.  The burden in that situation should be at most whether it is "more likely than not" that the incident took place.

I get that it's hard for people to reconcile what this man is all about with the fact that people they love and respect support Trump. I am very fortunate to not be in that position, and you and others have my sympathy.  But IMO there's very little question that some measure of resentment of "others" and the bonds forged by coming together to do so, as detailed in this famous article.  I don't know whether that describes your friends and family- obviously I hope it doesn't, and I have no reason to doubt you when you say that. But it sure rings true based on everything I've seen and heard from Trump reporters here and everywhere else.
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I can't stand Trump, the man is reprehensible and I have no doubt that he is a multiple sex offender.   All I am saying is that statements like "for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point" does not jive with the Trump supporters that I know.    Perhaps you hang out with all of the cruel ones.

 
Godsbrother said:
I can't stand Trump, the man is reprehensible and I have no doubt that he is a multiple sex offender.   All I am saying is that statements like "for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point" does not jive with the Trump supporters that I know.    Perhaps you hang out with all of the cruel ones.
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It has little to do with personal experience. Like I said I don't really know many Trump supporters, and the ones I do know are not people I particularly like so I don't have to do any sacrificing of relationships or reconciling my feelings about them with my feelings about what they support. It's an observed phenomenon. The article has a number of explicit examples of Trump supporters bonding over cruelty.  It talks specifically about the Kavanaugh sexual assault allegations and how Trump and his supporters treated them:
 

At a rally in Mississippi, a crowd of Trump supporters cheered as the president mocked Christine Blasey Ford, the psychology professor who has said that Brett Kavanaugh, whom Trump has nominated to a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court, attempted to rape her when she was a teenager. “Lock her up!” they shouted.

Ford testified to the Senate, utilizing her professional expertise to describe the encounter, that one of the parts of the incident she remembered most was Kavanaugh and his friend Mark Judge laughing at her as Kavanaugh fumbled at her clothing. “Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter,” Ford said, referring to the part of the brain that processes emotion and memory, “the uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.” And then at Tuesday’s rally, the president made his supporters laugh at her.

Even those who believe that Ford fabricated her account, or was mistaken in its details, can see that the president’s mocking of her testimony renders all sexual-assault survivors collateral damage. Anyone afraid of coming forward, afraid that she would not be believed, can now look to the president to see her fears realized. Once malice is embraced as a virtue, it is impossible to contain.

The cruelty of the Trump administration’s policies, and the ritual rhetorical flaying of his targets before his supporters, are intimately connected. As Lili Loofbourow wrote of the Kavanaugh incident in Slate, adolescent male cruelty toward women is a bonding mechanism, a vehicle for intimacy through contempt. The white men in the lynching photos are smiling not merely because of what they have done, but because they have done it together.
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My guess is this rings true for everyone who lived through that episode, including those who read posts in this forum from Trump supporters. And if the E Jean Carroll allegations somehow get the attention they warrant, does anyone doubt we'll see the same thing again?

 
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TobiasFunke said:
The fact that it won't matter isn't even the interesting part.  Of course it won't matter, because for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point.  They can't really cheer an attempted rape in public discourse (although the Kavanaugh cheerleading came close), so they'll settle for attacking this woman's character and making up all kinds of horrible lies about her to undermine her credibility. It all comes from the same place.
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You've been asked repeatedly not to make serious sweeping generalized accusations like that. Please stop. 

 
The National Review had an article a few weeks ago that distinguished between the two types of Trump supporters that @Godsbrother and @TobiasFunke are discussing. 

Link

I frequently disagree with The Atlantic’s Adam Serwer, but late last year he wrote a piece that should resonate with any person who’s been in the crosshairs of the MAGA right. A fundamental aspect of truly Trumpist political engagement is the intentional infliction of harm on political opponents. Cruelty is the point of their interactions. That’s the purpose of their communication.

I’m making a distinction here between Trump voters and online Trumpists. There are many millions of Trump voters who are kind, decent, and generous people. They’re the salt of the earth and the backbone of their communities. I know them. They’re my friends and family members. They’re the people who help make my community a marvelous place to live. If they were the face of Trumpism, then America would be a less polarized place.

But they’re not — not by a long shot. Donald Trump’s personal pugilism has been adopted, refined, and magnified by a legion of his supporters, and these individuals live to inflict misery. They don’t care to win an argument. They don’t care to persuade. They want to harass and swarm and mock in a carnival fun-house imitation of the online mobs generated by the woke social-justice left.

...

 
Godsbrother said:
I can't stand Trump, the man is reprehensible and I have no doubt that he is a multiple sex offender.   All I am saying is that statements like "for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point" does not jive with the Trump supporters that I know.    Perhaps you hang out with all of the cruel ones.
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If you vote for em whats the difference? Cruelty by proxy.

 
Jackstraw said:
If you vote for em whats the difference? Cruelty by proxy.
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There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.

 
Godsbrother said:
There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.
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BOF SIDEZZZZZ!!!!

 
I saw an interview of her by Chris Matthews.  I no longer remember if it was Friday or Saturday night. I found her odd.  I found her particularly odd in her explanation of why she would not seek to prosecute and/or to provide the dress to prosecutors.   Still, who can account for the emotional state of a victim, sometimes they are odd or they act counter-intuitively from what I might expect.  I wish her well.

 
Godsbrother said:
I can't stand Trump, the man is reprehensible and I have no doubt that he is a multiple sex offender.   All I am saying is that statements like "for Trump supporters the cruelty is the point" does not jive with the Trump supporters that I know.    Perhaps you hang out with all of the cruel ones.
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I feel the same way, but it's hard not to associate their support for Trump without a corresponding support for rape, fear, and misogyny.  I believe Trump supporters bear a measure of responsibility for supporting such a person, and can't understand how they can simply detach themselves from his awful behavior just because they aren't rapists and misogynysts themselves.  If you are on the Trump Train, you are along for the ride, warts and all, and you should be speaking out against such vile behavior.  

Of course, Trump supporters are also cheering "Lock Her Up!" when Trump mentions an alleged sexual assault victim at one of his rallies, and I'm sure there are millions more who watched and snickered or smiled.  So maybe the responsibility and connection between Trump and many of his supporters is more direct and cultivating this culture of rape, fear, and misogyny is more of a campaign platform.   

 
Godsbrother said:
There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.
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I mean then you throw in caging children. Playing footsie with Nazi's. Coddling dictators and insulting our allies. Destroying international agreements. Trying to jack health care. Taking blantantly unconsitutional actions by the executive. Obstructing justice.  Attacks on the environment. Oh yeah and unprecendented corruption.  

I'm a dem and at the last rally he said I was evil and wanted to destroy conservatives and destroy their way of life. That I was full of hate and racism. 

If I seem emotional about it I apologize. But I see a Trump sticker or hat or flag waving and I see all those things. It's kind of hard to take. 

And then we have to deal with, "yeah but a lot of them are really cool people." Hmmmmm.....

I like you have family and friends that are Trump supporters and without a doubt I have lost a lot of respect for many/most of them. They seem like otherwise nice people. I just can;t get over that dichomoty as easily as you I guess.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I don't know why Tobias keeps catching warnings and bans for statements that I think are basically accurate, while drive-by garbage posts like this go unmoderated.
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It's a personal mission. I think the bothsidesism we hear in this forum are mostly massive copouts and deflections. 

 
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Jackstraw said:
It's a personal mission. I think the bothsidesism we hear in this forum are mostly massive copouts and deflections. 
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The guy you responded to was speaking thoughtfully and honestly about the Trump voters that he personally knows.  He acknowledged his own personal loathing of Trump, while also noting that he's had to vote for someone who he didn't care much for.  And that poster has a long track record of being a solid contributor to the forum.  I don't see why you'd feel the urge to respond with a childish drive-by that responded to absolutely none of the substance of his posts, but whatever.

 
Godsbrother said:
There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.
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Clinton was a philanderer, but this is a pretty common problem amongst politicians on both sides.  It's pretty rare that someone who condones and participates in rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, and victim-shaming isn't thrown out of office (except where SCOTUS appointees are involved - in that small forum, it's apparently fine).  The opposite seems to be true with Trump, and many of his supporters seem to view these as positive attributes or explain it away as if it were nothing.  You think he's disgusting and that's good enough for me.  I just wish more people spoke out against it.      

 
Jackstraw said:
I like you have family and friends that are Trump supporters and without a doubt I have lost a lot of respect for many/most of them. They seem like otherwise nice people. I just can;t get over that dichomoty as easily as you I guess.  
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I don't agree with their assessment of the job that President Trump is doing and I think a lot of their arguments are wrong but I don't consider them cruel or evil people.  

 
Godsbrother said:
There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.
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Bill Clinton was not accused of rape until after he'd been elected twice. The only existing allegation I'm aware of was Paula Jones claiming Clinton sexually harassed her, and that allegation was made in 1994 (before his second election.)  

 
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Mookie said:
Clinton was a philanderer, but this is a pretty common problem amongst politicians on both sides.  It's pretty rare that someone who condones and participates in rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, and victim-shaming isn't thrown out of office (except where SCOTUS appointees are involved - in that small forum, it's apparently fine).  The opposite seems to be true with Trump, and many of his supporters seem to view these as positive attributes or explain it away as if it were nothing.  You think he's disgusting and that's good enough for me.  I just wish more people spoke out against it.      
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The majority of Trump supporters that I know dismiss Trump's history with women with the same line as you opened this paragraph with.

 
Henry Ford said:
Bill Clinton was not accused of rape until after he'd been elected twice. The only existing allegation I'm aware of was Paula Jones claiming Clinton sexually harassed her, and that allegation was made in 1994 (before his second election.)  
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Fair enough (although the Paula Jones allegations were pretty credible) but if the 2020 election came down to Bill Clinton knowing what we do now and Mike Pence,  who do you think most Democrats would vote for?

 
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Godsbrother said:
I don't agree with their assessment of the job that President Trump is doing and I think a lot of their arguments are wrong but I don't consider them cruel or evil people.  
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I’m originally from SW Virginia, and have lots of family and friends who support Trump.  i haven’t severed ties with folks over Trump, but I struggle with it.  At some point, aren’t they cruel people if they are knowingly and wantingly supporting this administration?  My friendship/family bond with these people is really the only thing that keeps me from believing that, and that’s now rational.  

 
Godsbrother said:
Fair enough (although the Paul Jones allegations were pretty credible) but if the 2020 election came down to Bill Clinton knowing what we do now and Mike Pence,  who do you think most Democrats would vote for?
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The Paula Jones allegations were disputed by her own sister and brother-in-law and people she told about the encounter claimed she had said Bill Clinton had a birthmark on his penis that he didn't have.

Edit: she lost the case on summary judgment.

 
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Godsbrother said:
The majority of Trump supporters that I know dismiss Trump's history with women with the same line as you opened this paragraph with.
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And perhaps I'm too quick to draw a line that forgives/overlooks the philandering and condemns the rape and assault allegations.  It's all immoral behavior that some would prefer to view as unproven dirt.  What is odd to me is that many have had their political lives ruined over their philandering, and yet Trump seems emboldened by far more serious allegations against him as well as his own callous and inappropriate statements (i.e. "grab 'em by the #####").  

 
Mookie said:
And perhaps I'm too quick to draw a line that forgives/overlooks the philandering and condemns the rape and assault allegations.  It's all immoral behavior that some would prefer to view as unproven dirt.  What is odd to me is that many have had their political lives ruined over their philandering, and yet Trump seems emboldened by far more serious allegations against him as well as his own callous and inappropriate statements (i.e. "grab 'em by the #####").  
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I agree, this is VERY odd.

 
Henry Ford said:
Bill Clinton was not accused of rape until after he'd been elected twice. The only existing allegation I'm aware of was Paula Jones claiming Clinton sexually harassed her, and that allegation was made in 1994 (before his second election.)  
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The most serious allegation against him was that he was moonlighting as Humpty Hump. 

 
Henry Ford said:
The Paula Jones allegations were disputed by her own sister and brother-in-law and people she told about the encounter claimed she had said Bill Clinton had a birthmark on his penis that he didn't have.

Edit: she lost the case on summary judgment.
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He probably just had some fast food sauce he spilled on it and had not yet wiped off.  An honest mistake.  It looked like a port wine stain but was actually Arby's Horsey Sauce.

 
Henry Ford said:
It's hot out and you're hungry... who wouldn't eat an Arby's in the nude.  And then... whoops! I forgot about that meeting!
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I eat spaghetti in the nude if I have a meeting later.  It avoids the splatter factor if you have a white shirt.  I once had a spill that looked like Bocelli's Madonna and Child with St. John the Baptist, though in fairness St. John sort of resembled Col. Sanders.

 
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tommyGunZ said:
I’m originally from SW Virginia, and have lots of family and friends who support Trump.  i haven’t severed ties with folks over Trump, but I struggle with it.  At some point, aren’t they cruel people if they are knowingly and wantingly supporting this administration?  My friendship/family bond with these people is really the only thing that keeps me from believing that, and that’s now rational.  
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I didn't vote in 2016 and if I had would have voted Gary Johnson. I was on facebook not long after the election and posted some rebuttal to why the wait times at urban polling stations was longer than the wait at rural stations. I received the response quoted below from someone I went to HS with. 

Seriously. You are an idiot and an ####### if you voted for that piece of ####. But even worse that means you're a bigot. You don't get to do that and stay friends with the rest of the country or the world. To say that there should be long lines at urban polling stations because that's where a lot of people are is an idiotic argument. Regardless of density everyone should have the same wait. But more idiotic is your couching it in your usual bs. I hope you rot in hell.
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The over the top responses such as the above don't exactly endear me to the Ds this time around and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I saw an interview of her by Chris Matthews.  I no longer remember if it was Friday or Saturday night. I found her odd.  I found her particularly odd in her explanation of why she would not seek to prosecute and/or to provide the dress to prosecutors.   Still, who can account for the emotional state of a victim, sometimes they are odd or they act counter-intuitively from what I might expect.  I wish her well.
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When I was a 19 (it was the olden days)I was out drinking heavily with some friends.  I somehow managed to get separated from them and  found myself wandering around a neighborhood that wasn't so safe to be alone.  Next thing I know somebody grabs my neck from behind trying to get my big gold rope.  I instinctively turned and punched with my left knocking the guy flat out.  I then ran desperately searching for a business that would be open late so I could  use a phone and call a cab.  At that point in my life had been in more than my share of fights but was scared to death. I still remember everything like it was yesterday.  Fear is a crazy thing.

 
Henry Ford said:
Godsbrother said:
There were allegations against Bill Clinton when he ran for president.  I still voted for him because I thought he was the better person for the job.   I admit to being cruelty by proxy and I am part of the problem.  I apologize.
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Bill Clinton was not accused of rape until after he'd been elected twice. The only existing allegation I'm aware of was Paula Jones claiming Clinton sexually harassed her, and that allegation was made in 1994 (before his second election.)  
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He was accused of (gasp!) having an affair with Gennifer Flowers.

It would be cute if Trump supporters suddenly proclaimed a desire to have a president who honors the sanctity of marriage.

 
Sheriff Bart said:
When I was a 19 (it was the olden days)I was out drinking heavily with some friends.  I somehow managed to get separated from them and  found myself wandering around a neighborhood that wasn't so safe to be alone.  Next thing I know somebody grabs my neck from behind trying to get my big gold rope.  I instinctively turned and punched with my left knocking the guy flat out.  I then ran desperately searching for a business that would be open late so I could  use a phone and call a cab.  At that point in my life had been in more than my share of fights but was scared to death. I still remember everything like it was yesterday.  Fear is a crazy thing.
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It is indeed.  Betrayal also is a crazy thing and how one deals with it is an individual matter and probably should be beyond questioning by others.  That said, I found her odd. I am not making conclusions therefrom, simply sharing my reaction.

 
Gawain said:
I didn't vote in 2016 and if I had would have voted Gary Johnson. I was on facebook not long after the election and posted some rebuttal to why the wait times at urban polling stations was longer than the wait at rural stations. I received the response quoted below from someone I went to HS with. 

The over the top responses such as the above don't exactly endear me to the Ds this time around and I'm sure I'm not alone.
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Anyone posting anything other than baby pictures, recipes or cats playing piano on Facebook are asking for a lot of hate.  It doesn't matter which party you support, the whackos on the other side are going to lash out.

One of the many reasons I don't have a FB account

 
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