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WR Courtland Sutton, DEN (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Pwingles
Footballguy
3 cone times
Sutton 6.57
Treadwell, 7.05
Ridely, 6.88
Moore, 6.95
Kirk, 7.09
Washington, 7.11
Michael Thomas, 6.80
I am getting a bit of a Michael Thomas vibe from sutton lately. Most dynasty guys were pretty low on MT compared to the other guys in his class. I feel like athletically they might be similar.
Sutton 6.57
Treadwell, 7.05
Ridely, 6.88
Moore, 6.95
Kirk, 7.09
Washington, 7.11
Michael Thomas, 6.80
I am getting a bit of a Michael Thomas vibe from sutton lately. Most dynasty guys were pretty low on MT compared to the other guys in his class. I feel like athletically they might be similar.
Pwingles
Footballguy
I was only addressing the comment that he was stiff and not limber, which appears to just be false. regardless of whether or not its a success indicator.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Drew brees can hide warts...sometimes dyno players over think things.
Thats 3 cone is insane for sutton......almost makes me think its an error.
Pwingles
Footballguy
True about Brees, and dyno circles.
It very well could be a mistake, but here is the link;
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/courtland-sutton?id=32462018-0002-5600-18de-e88c26b17c1c
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Taking a few steps then going around a cone is not the same as a 10 yard dig at full speed.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Yeah, because every receiver who's done a great 3 cone drill ends up a stud. And Sutton even did better than Antonio Brown.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Go do your 3 cone time and post it. It’s really easy, and shows nothing about explosiveness, short area burst, agility, or change of direction. Anyone can hit 7 seconds. Honestly a 10 yd dig is probably easier. Take a few steps, turn left or right. Qb is the easiest, few steps backward and throw it.
What does “he’s stiff” mean, exactly? He keeps his arms by his sides when he runs or something?
Pwingles
Footballguy
Whats the success rate for your patented "sitting on the couch and guessing" method?
You are trying to create a narrative that isn't backed up by anything. If you don't like the guy, fine. You wanna say he isn't a leaper, or upper body strength isn't great, fine. But you chose to say he looks stiff. Maybe on the play you are remembering, he did. Agility drills where you have to run and lean the entire time disagree with your narrative tho.
here is another link that disagrees with you
https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/courtland-sutton/
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
Not really guessing, just watching the guy play and forming an opinion. And I'm cool with being wrong.
Sorry if I struck a nerve.
Sorry if I struck a nerve.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
There's a hinge connecting your legs with your torso called your hips. The more flexibility in this hinge, the more sharp angles you can make at full speed. Go watch a guy like Stefon Diggs or Tyreek Hill run a route; then go watch Courtland Sutton.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
You’re comparing 6’ 195 Lbs to a 6’3” 220 guy. And if you said “he’s stiff in the hips and doesn’t make quick cuts on digs” then fine. He doesn’t get his hips around on a route, I’ll take that as observation and maybe I’ll go back and see if I’m missing something (I probably will anyway in case I move into position to draft him). It’s obvious you don’t put any stock in 3 cone time based on this thread and the freeman thread. That’s fine, I’m wrong on guys too, and that’s the game. I don’t think he’s a sure thing, but he checks a lot of boxes for me. I probably could have been a bit more cordial on the rebuke though, admittedly.
Pwingles
Footballguy
Who wants to make evals from a horse, that just sounds uncomfortable and unrealistic. Did you see this on tv?
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Oh i know i was watching the combine and said damn......
Is there a correlation between 3 cone & sucess for a wr....didnt seem like it was......i could be wrong
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Occasionally stiff?
moores vertical route probably pass interference in the nfl. Nice breakdown of a few routes here by Sutton and Moore. Not the whole story by any means.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Wow. Great comparison. Very similar players there. Okay, now go watch Sutton make catches with a guy literally hanging on him before the ball gets there - which he did enough to know it isn’t a fluke - and then show me Diggs and Hill doing the same thing.
Hard to believe that the NFL runs drills at the combine that have no value. Let me guess, you think the gauntlet is useless too because there’s no D and a guy can only catch one football on any given route in a game.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Moore has a lot more fluidity. One step then cut. The double move he makes in the last video is all I needed to see from him.
Sutton on the other hand take a few steps to make the same move. Not really seeing him sink his hips.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
Sutton has pretty decent size, so I'm not saying he won't be a good receiver in the NFL. But (imo) it won't be because he's getting a lot of separation.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bleedinggreennation.com/platform/amp/2018/3/6/17086664/nfl-draft-running-routes-dj-moore-courtland-sutton-wide-receiver-2018-tape-breakdown-film-scouting
ETA - oops, Snorky linked the same thing. So you can see it twice and maybe re-evaluate your position a bit.
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
He bails his qb out constantly. He adjusts to poorly thrown balls and just wins. He’s like a poor mans mike Evans, bailing out manziel time and again in college. No, he’s not golden Tate, Diggs, or reek. He has some work to do, but he does a lot well. I don’t think he’ll be running crossing routes out of the slot either. I agree he sometimes uses extra motions or doesn’t get off his defender but he also just simply gets the ball unless you’re right up his butt. And if you’re riding him that close he has the speed/size to win downfield as well.
I just posted that like 3 posts back.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
So you can use google and copy/paste a url?
Actually, that video was already posted.
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Pwingles
Footballguy
i feel like there is a drill designed to make you bend at the hips a lot, cant remember what its called tho
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Yep, video that tarnishes your position more than a little - not that you’d ever admit it.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
For the record, I'm not really down on the guy. Your statements above are all reasons to like him. Only he doesn't sink his hips well enough to make sharp cuts for getting open all the time in the NFL.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Michael Kist thinks he'll be good. That doesn't tarnish my position.
Watch the videos closely and you will see a very fluid athlete in DJ Moore. Not much wasted motion, making one step cuts. Then you'll see Sutton use about 3 or 4 steps to change direction.
Pwingles
Footballguy
IDK for sure either. I would assume, if there was a link to those numbers and some sort of area where the player would win, it would be on in or out breaking routes, near the sideline, timing routes where the throw is out before the player has changed direction. I would also assume that doing well on some sort of burst or explosive movement test would coincide with this, if true.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
I sorta agree with the “MT vibe” when it comes to Sutton right now. But I believe MT was a much better technician of the game (route runner, great hands) during his draft year.
So is MT as good as we think? Or is it because of Brees?
steelers1080
Footballguy
Sutton reminds me of Dorial Green-Beckham (not off the field). He's tall, good at contested catches, was wide open a lot in college against poor secondaries, and isn't a great route runner.
Sutton could definitely develop into a great WR, but he's been able to coast by on athleticism and size up til now. If he can improve his route running, and learn from Hopkins how to pass interfere without getting caught, he could become very good, very fast. He pushes off a lot because he doesn't have much separation at the top of routes. Hopkins does as well, but with subtle moves down near the hips. Hopkins and the CB are usually neck and neck, but right at the point of the catch he's able to shift them slightly and make the grab. Antonio Brown does this quite often as well. If Sutton can learn, he will be a great pick near the 1-2 turn.
Sutton could definitely develop into a great WR, but he's been able to coast by on athleticism and size up til now. If he can improve his route running, and learn from Hopkins how to pass interfere without getting caught, he could become very good, very fast. He pushes off a lot because he doesn't have much separation at the top of routes. Hopkins does as well, but with subtle moves down near the hips. Hopkins and the CB are usually neck and neck, but right at the point of the catch he's able to shift them slightly and make the grab. Antonio Brown does this quite often as well. If Sutton can learn, he will be a great pick near the 1-2 turn.
Pwingles
Footballguy
I think its just a perfect storm really of a guy with major talent and an elite qb that is able to make the most of his skill sets. I think he wouldve ended up being a good wr still on another team, it wouldve just likely taken a little longer for him to develop.
Heh I have been saying DGB so often latelysteelers1080 said:
I don't want any college player that can't run routes well. That's pride in their job also shows a result of work ethic or lack of. If they played WR in high school, then I really gotta wonder how come they can't run routes well after 7-8 years of doing so. Not the intricate stuff but simple things like awfully rounded corners and not knowing the plays. That's so basic.
I have never understood why DGB is out of the league. He is an elite talent, no doubt, with athleticism that few can match. He is a horrible learner and I understand that, but teams spend years developing WRs all the time. Why not him? "My Titans" spent 3-4 years on Tre McBride, I'd rather it have been DGB.
I liked this guy Turzilli. A great yes coach high effort type, 6-4 and fastest 40 of tall WRs that year. He did nothing at Rutgers and was a total project. He's still in the league, now with the Giants.
5th WRs do almost nothing and 6th WRs (if a team has one) do even less. What are they in for 25 plays a year? I know us FFers want every WR to have production and be this n that but truthfully, I like developmental types "at the end of the bench."
Anywho....see where my mind went? There's no way I'd draft Sutton if I were a GM.
This year also offers a change in the evolution of the game. This is the first year there are many DBs that are tall. The huge WRs have always towered over DBs. Finally things are "catching up." We'll have to see how it plays out, but I am curious. I want my Titans to draft Tre Flowers from OK State. 6-3 and a fine safety in the Big 12. They don't have a pressing need with Cyp and Byard. (He's a 6th 7th round projection.) Can we admit that there are third and longs and long and goal situations where we know a lob or deep pass is coming? I'd love a fast tall guy going in. Cyp's hard nosed tackling isn't even really needed in that situation either.
Jeremy Boykins was 6-2 last year and 6-1 this year, go figure. Three or four star recruit, I forget. All that was was athleticism, great athlete little production. I enjoyed him in preseason. He played CB and S. Flew all over the place, jumped as high as you can imagine, tried to swat anything he could. He got cut, went to the Falcons, and returned. I'm glad he's back. Let's see what year two brings. If not now, put him on the PS again, and see in year three.
There is definitely a place for superb athletes but I think NFL teams waste way too much time (and cost themselves jobs) not basing things on production
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Not exactly, not yet. He hasn't played in the NFL. I think that could be the result in the NFL.
I think he had a k 3 times which is nice for college
There are 6-4 to 6-6 guys every year. Most don't pan out anywhere near what we expected.
There's something DGB or even Ramses Barden-ish about how he plays. I saw some gaudy stat about him in comparison to Mike Williams and Corey Davis. Watching highlights of the three of them one after another, Sutton isn't close.
Sometimes in sports, a player can let his athleticism tide him over until he learns the intricacies of the game but I don't think that usually holds true for WRs as far behind as he is. Ramses was part of a super rookie year for the Giants or was it two years? They were loaded with young talent at the time. It wasn't easy for him to crack the lineup but he was amidst tons of learning and tutelage going on. I'd put him more like Ramses in the third round. I don't get top WR vibe from him at all.
Washington is a tactician and Moore isn't half bad at that either. They are eons better WRs at whatever finer points of the game you want to gauge.
How limited is a 6 foot guy if he's not gonna be Brady's or Rodgers' main slot weapon? They have a ceiling that is surely lower than Sutton.
Jason Garrett was on the local radio talking about him and in comparison to Dez. He didn't insult Sutton but said Bryant was ready to play right away. The nice things he said were what you can't teach like height and hands. He didn't mention speed. I don't recall his 40 time.
I don't remember his pro day being "an event" this spring. Did many go to it? Garrett said he was there but...did many go? Half the world was at Baker Mayfield's pro day
I just googled, no it wasn't. That tells ya something.
Eric Edholm of PFW shared this quote
Quotable: “A few of us have debated him. More disagreement on him than others. One [scout] thinks he could be JuJu [Smith-Schuster] all over. One of our coaches doesn’t think he separates well enough. He didn’t look fluid in the position drills [at the combine]. It’s going to hurt his overall grade. I think someone takes him in the second [round].” — AFC college scouting director
Eric's summary: Best-suited destination: Sutton might need a patient WR coach who can develop him over time, but he has the physical tools to compete and contribute right away in a defined role.
None of that is top WR, gem, type praise
Quotable: “A few of us have debated him. More disagreement on him than others. One [scout] thinks he could be JuJu [Smith-Schuster] all over. One of our coaches doesn’t think he separates well enough. He didn’t look fluid in the position drills [at the combine]. It’s going to hurt his overall grade. I think someone takes him in the second [round].” — AFC college scouting director
Eric's summary: Best-suited destination: Sutton might need a patient WR coach who can develop him over time, but he has the physical tools to compete and contribute right away in a defined role.
None of that is top WR, gem, type praise
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
steelers1080
Footballguy
I would argue that one reason Sutton isn't a polished route runner was that he was a great athlete in a pool of mediocre athletes. He was able to get by on size and speed and didn't need to hone his craft. In the NFL, everyone is a great athlete, so that will no longer be a huge advantage. If he can't run more crisp routes then he's no better than Cordarelle Patterson or Dorial Green Beckham.
I think he 100% can develop into a great, #1 WR, but I'd be wary of his landing spot more than for some of the other prospects, like DJ Moore and Christian Kirk. I don't think Sutton will reach his full potential if he goes to Dallas. I don't think they got the most out of Dez, Bryce Butler, or Terrence Williams. Beasley did well, but he was already a solid route runner, and almost the opposite type of player from Sutton.
I heard this on the radio and Garrett said he would NOT draft Sutton. Period.
Pro day up close in drills and privately, dallas day(I think, can't recall exactly), and a personal interview
Just after the interview the host said something like wow after spending that much time, they won't draft him at all. Interesting. Then they discussed the negative side to spending a lot of time with players like it doesn't always show someone they're going to draft but maybe reasons they won't draft a guy.
This was not solely he won't pick him in the first.
I think Jerry's boy, Stephen Jones, drafts for them. He'll be on the radio a bunch this week. I guess his opinion matters more than Jason's and Jason could have been speaking out of turn. We'll see.
Jerry Jones has been relatively silent this draft.
Pro day up close in drills and privately, dallas day(I think, can't recall exactly), and a personal interview
Just after the interview the host said something like wow after spending that much time, they won't draft him at all. Interesting. Then they discussed the negative side to spending a lot of time with players like it doesn't always show someone they're going to draft but maybe reasons they won't draft a guy.
This was not solely he won't pick him in the first.
I think Jerry's boy, Stephen Jones, drafts for them. He'll be on the radio a bunch this week. I guess his opinion matters more than Jason's and Jason could have been speaking out of turn. We'll see.
Jerry Jones has been relatively silent this draft.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
