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21 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

It's the same, and it's a non-starter for Republicans to make people get a license to own a gun.

It probably should be for everyone under our current Constitution.  That said, I have long been an advocate that we ought to change the Second Amendment as it is anachronistic and even dangerous in this day and age.  and when I say change the second amendment I mean we, the people, ought to get together and do this, not that we should have the courts interpret this first one way and then the other. People tell me I'm nuts, that this will be almost impossible. I say we need to educate and remind ourselves that it is possible and we need to go through this, we need to forge common ground instead of fostering ever more retrenched partisanship. I am, of course, crazier than a ####house rat so pay me no mind.

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It's TOTALLY the title of the thread.  Here's why:  Over the last year or so I finally figured out that we don't actually care about gun violence.  When I say "we" I mean everyone, generally.  But als

So I have never gotten too deep into gun conversations here, mostly because guns are as close to religion in the US as you can get. I'm decidedly pro 2nd Amendment, but I also recognize that was

I would love to see civil and criminal liability attached to gun owners as well as shooters. If your gun is used in the commission of a crime, you're responsible unless you can show that the gun was o

Just now, randall146 said:

We're sorry - your statement has been found to be FALSE

Well in the movies the good guys get there in time.  Sadly, in life, generally the shooting is stopped when it has been accomplished or when th shooter runs out of ammunition or targets.  Rarely is it interrupted. 

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52 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

what changes were made to school security since the last school shootings ? nothing ?

hmmmmm 

I also notice in almost every shooting, people with guns stop the crazies and the evil they're doing. Guns save the day .... damn shame they're not already there to prevent these things from happening

Yeah, if every middle school kid carried a hand gun, that girl wouldn't be able to wound her classmates. The teachers, coaches and school admin should be packing heat as well. 

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6 minutes ago, randall146 said:

We're sorry - your statement has been found to be FALSE

well in cases that the shooter shoots himself I guess thats true, in cases where the shooters are STOPPED ? 

its rare that a pretty please gets it done - fighting back gets it done and with guns. Its why police carry them and use them

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Just now, EYLive said:

Yeah, if every middle school kid carried a hand gun, that girl wouldn't be able to wound her classmates. The teachers, coaches and school admin should be packing heat as well. 

who said anything like that ?

anyone? where ?

armed guards at the entry to every school, lean on veterans who and parents trained and licensed. The need would be filled quickly - I'd volunteer a few hours to stand guard at a school entrance and protect kids

wouldn't you ?

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6 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Well in the movies the good guys get there in time.  Sadly, in life, generally the shooting is stopped when it has been accomplished or when th shooter runs out of ammunition or targets.  Rarely is it interrupted. 

its difficult to stop active shooters when nobody (trained licensed people) is allowed to carry guns in a school isn't it ? 

 

"I also notice in almost every shooting, people with guns stop the crazies and the evil they're doing. Guns save the day .... damn shame they're not already there to prevent these things from happening"

you are correct more so than I am in that Ditkaless Wonders - shooters too often go on their rampages with nothing inside the schools to stop them. 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Gr00vus said:

I notice in every shooting, the person doing the shooting has a gun.

 

Evil finds ways - and when evil shows up at a gun free zone .... there is nothing to stop that evil

 

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Just now, Gr00vus said:

For me? I've never been shot - so aces here skippy. We should probably have more of that, like nation wide. Glad you're with me.

uh ... every school shooting happened in a gun free zone

you know that, right ?

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

Evil finds ways - and when evil shows up at a gun free zone .... there is nothing to stop that evil

 

Guns are evil. Got it. We should probably have less of those then. Maybe none at all.

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

its difficult to stop active shooters when nobody (trained licensed people) is allowed to carry guns in a school isn't it ? 

 

"I also notice in almost every shooting, people with guns stop the crazies and the evil they're doing. Guns save the day .... damn shame they're not already there to prevent these things from happening"

you are correct more so than I am in that Ditkaless Wonders - shooters too often go on their rampages with nothing inside the schools to stop them. 

 

 

 

 

I can think of few scenarios more fraught with peril for anybody but the most highly trained.  I am not an advocate for armed guards at schools because I tend to believe we will contract the position out, as in most things government, to the lowest responsive bidder.  Maybe I am wrong and we would have incredibly able persons in these positions.   

 

I know this, I do not feel I would be qualified for such a position.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

uh ... every school shooting happened in a gun free zone

you know that, right ?

Imagine how many more shootings there'd be if there were even more guns in those gun free zones! You're making a great case for eliminating guns entirely, awesome.

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3 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Guns are evil. Got it. We should probably have less of those then. Maybe none at all.

no sir - people are evil and they do evil things

if you don't own a gun, you better hope someone who has one shows up and kills the evil person before they kill too many people

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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

Imagine how many more shootings there'd be if there were even more guns in those gun free zones! You're making a great case for eliminating guns entirely, awesome.

I would think it would be like a police station - very few people go to a police station to commit mass murders - you ever noticed that ?

why ?

Evil people target places that has nobody to fight back - gun free zones are perfect for that. 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

no sir - people are evil and they do evil things

if you don't own a gun, you better hope someone who has one shows up and kills the evil person before they kill too many people

So someone should shoot someone else before that someone else commits a shooting? That's your solution to shootings?

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3 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I am not an advocate for armed guards at schools

and that's what we have in public schools and how's that working ?

now, compare it to schools that have high security like the wealthy send their kids to ..... you don't hear of ritzy private schools getting shot up do you ? why ?

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

I would think it would be like a police station - very few people go to a police station to commit mass murders - you ever noticed that ?

why ?

Evil people target places that has nobody to fight back - gun free zones are perfect for that. 

Unfortunately it would be cost prohibitive to harden most targets to the level of police stations so the truth in your argument is belied, to a very real level, by the practicality of achieving your goal.  At least to my mind.  I am just guessing about the numbers of say, schools. Perhaps I am way off in my estimations.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

and that's what we have in public schools and how's that working ?

now, compare it to schools that have high security like the wealthy send their kids to ..... you don't hear of ritzy private schools getting shot up do you ? why ?

I send my kid to a private school. They have no armed security there. They've never had a shooting. Hoooray for anecdotes!

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Just now, Gr00vus said:

So someone should shoot someone else before that someone else commits a shooting? That's your solution to shootings?

if I'm a licensed, trained guard at a school and someone pulls a handgun out as they come towards the entrance, engage the shooter. maybe you shoot and kill, maybe they drop the weapon .... every scenario plays different, same as if somehow they get inside the school and start shooting and you engage 

but just knowing that people armed and trained were at the school to stop you would stop many of these shootings from ever occurring in the first place

gun free isn't working, what's being done right now isn't working

continuing to ignore that gun free zones are like open chicken houses to foxes isn't going to solve anything

Evil is going to continue to be evil, people have changed and that's a fact and we've got to deal with it.

 

 

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Just now, Gr00vus said:

I send my kid to a private school. They have no armed security there. They've never had a shooting. Hoooray for anecdotes!

list me all the schools that have high security that have had shootings. any? any at all ?

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

and that's what we have in public schools and how's that working ?

now, compare it to schools that have high security like the wealthy send their kids to ..... you don't hear of ritzy private schools getting shot up do you ? why ?

You intend to take part of my statement directly out of its context and then have me defend what it is I clearly did not say?  How fascinating.  

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2 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Unfortunately it would be cost prohibitive to harden most targets to the level of police stations so the truth in your argument is belied, to a very real level, by the practicality of achieving your goal.  At least to my mind.  I am just guessing about the numbers of say, schools. Perhaps I am way off in my estimations.

military vets would volunteer, some parents would, cut back the football stadium expansion and there is some funding right there ............ but look at what your'e saying, our children's safety isn't worth the money

wow

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12 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I can think of few scenarios more fraught with peril for anybody but the most highly trained.  I am not an advocate for armed guards at schools because I tend to believe we will contract the position out, as in most things government, to the lowest responsive bidder.  Maybe I am wrong and we would have incredibly able persons in these positions.   

 

I know this, I do not feel I would be qualified for such a position.

 

show me some schools with guards and how that works - do you know of any ? how did they get there?  what's the qualifications ? 

to be against it other than in theory ..... I mean surely we have schools in the US with security and can see they're not being targeted right ?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

military vets would volunteer, some parents would, cut back the football stadium expansion and there is some funding right there ............ but look at what your'e saying, our children's safety isn't worth the money

wow

I did not say that, but if it comforts you to engage a feeble straw man of your own constructions that is fine by me.  Your points are drowning in a whirlpool of hyperbole.

 

As for military vets, well, very few would have the required training, very few.  Seals and Delta force guys, Maybe Marine Snipers.  Me, I wonder as to the emotional state of some of those folks.  as for parents volunteering, I do not want a parent volunteer to be making shoot/don't shoot decisions with my child in the background.

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

list me all the schools that have high security that have had shootings. any? any at all ?

Wait, I thought you already knew the answers to all this. You're saying you don't even know? Its your anecdotal fantasy that more guns in school will prevent school shootings, you support it.

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2 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I did not say that, but if it comforts you to engage a feeble straw man of your own constructions that is fine by me.  Your points are drowning in a whirlpool of hyperbole.

 

As for military vets, well, very few would have the required training, very few.  Seals and Delta force guys, Maybe Marine Snipers.  Me, I wonder as to the emotional state of some of those folks.  as for parents volunteering, I do not want a parent volunteer to be making shoot/don't shoot decisions with my child in the background.

well then, continue on with gun free schools and when kids are killed then what? continuing with the same thing and expecting a different results .... I just don't get it

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

well then, continue on with gun free schools and when kids are killed then what? continuing with the same thing and expecting a different results .... I just don't get it

We should get rid of schools if we want to eliminate school shootings. :hifive:

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12 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

 

show me some schools with guards and how that works - do you know of any ? how did they get there?  what's the qualifications ? 

to be against it other than in theory ..... I mean surely we have schools in the US with security and can see they're not being targeted right ?

We can't even keep a hall monitor on staff for more than a couple months let alone get someone with a gun to roam the halls. 

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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

Wait, I thought you already knew the answers to all this. You're saying you don't even know? Its your anecdotal fantasy that more guns in school will prevent school shootings, you support it.

private schools are not targeted

there are many reasons as to why ..... but do you think wealthy people don't have security for their kids and the schools they attend better secured than regular blue collar America public schools?

I think that's a large part of it

in most cases, criminal and evil people are cowards - they don't attack strong people who will fight back, they don't confront face to face on equal terms. gun free schools are a magnet 

my wife raises poultry from time to time .....  a poultry house with no doors, no fencing, no security and varmints will kill them all in a weeks time

a poultry house with doors and fencing is much better - but they dig through and other ways kill your birds too

you put a dog in the fenced in area with the house in there ? NEVER will you lose a bird. Varmints see the "armed security" and it simply isn't worth risking it

 

you kinda of see the analogy there

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

We can't even keep a hall monitor on staff for more than a couple months let alone get someone with a gun to roam the halls. 

that needs solved then 

we are talking about our children here, money to pay a security staff should be really high on the list of importance, above your sports coaches, band directors and extra curricular things  IMO

 

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

private schools are not targeted

there are many reasons as to why ..... but do you think wealthy people don't have security for their kids and the schools they attend better secured than regular blue collar America public schools?

 

You have no idea what you are talking about here. 

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Just now, Ilov80s said:

You have no idea what you are talking about here. 

prove me wrong - show me the private schools that have been in school shootings - the elite schools that Hollywood sends their kids to, Govt officials or wealthy businessmen etc

 

 

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The biggest determining factor for how much security a school has is what kind of problems they have with violence, drugs, weapons. My HS might have 3 or 4 fist fights all year. Paying top dollar for an armed officer for the 1 in a million chance a random shooter enters the building seems extreme. By that thought process, every building that the public might enter should be required to have an armed guard: the movie theater, Applebees, etc. 

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8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

private schools are not targeted

there are many reasons as to why ..... but do you think wealthy people don't have security for their kids and the schools they attend better secured than regular blue collar America public schools?

I think that's a large part of it

in most cases, criminal and evil people are cowards - they don't attack strong people who will fight back, they don't confront face to face on equal terms. gun free schools are a magnet 

my wife raises poultry from time to time .....  a poultry house with no doors, no fencing, no security and varmints will kill them all in a weeks time

a poultry house with doors and fencing is much better - but they dig through and other ways kill your birds too

you put a dog in the fenced in area with the house in there ? NEVER will you lose a bird. Varmints see the "armed security" and it simply isn't worth risking it

 

you kinda of see the analogy there

 

 

 

And when the dog decides he wants chicken for dinner?

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

prove me wrong - show me the private schools that have been in school shootings - the elite schools that Hollywood sends their kids to, Govt officials or wealthy businessmen etc

 

 

Well you are only counting private school as ones where there are the 1 percenters and socially elite. That's an awfully small sample size. I attended a private school, I have several friends that work at private schools. They are no more secure or armed than any where else. The schools with the most armed guards and security measures are the schools in Detroit where violence is a real regular problem. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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4 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Well you are only counting private school as ones where there are the 1 percenters and socially elite. That's an awfully small sample size. I attended a private school, I have several friends that work at private schools. They are no more secure or armed than any where else. The schools with the most armed guards and security measures are the schools in Detroit where violence is a real regular problem. 

Logic has been tried. It's like water on a goose in this case

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Once we have armed guards and security at all schools we won't be far from having it at every location where there are gatherings of people.  If we start getting to the that point as a country then we have some major issues.  Maybe some day we'll have sentry guns around all schools.

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31 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

well then, continue on with gun free schools and when kids are killed then what? continuing with the same thing and expecting a different results .... I just don't get it

I don't get how you believe that is what I have advocated.  Are you arguing with me, or with some conglomerate construct in your mind which right now you are attributing to me?

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42 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Unfortunately it would be cost prohibitive to harden most targets to the level of police stations so the truth in your argument is belied, to a very real level, by the practicality of achieving your goal.  At least to my mind.  I am just guessing about the numbers of say, schools. Perhaps I am way off in my estimations.

I disagree and have stated so many times.  Most of the schools around me already have security guards, so there's no additional manpower.  

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3 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

I disagree and have stated so many times.  Most of the schools around me already have security guards, so there's no additional manpower.  

I'm curious how many schools nation wide have armed security on campus and how many for each level of education.  I don't think there are many at all in my surrounding area that I can think of.  We also have very little gun violence here.  I think most gun shot wounds here are from hunting accidents.

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