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9 hours ago, Choke said:

1) A poll is just in theory.

2) Everyone. Is Everyone. Not 80%

3) Lobbying and propaganda. (Its too hard!)

48 percent of those surveyed in a Quinnipiac University Poll in 2013 indicated that they believed the government could use background checks to confiscate legally-owned guns.

We live in a country where we are all free to think and form our own opinions. Those opinions are then entrusted to our representatives to carry out. There is very rarely going to be a topic where 100% of the country agrees. That's why we have a democratic majority to decide the outcome. Gun control is just one of those issues. Not everyone agrees on abortion, death penalty, taxes, etc. We don't need to squash others' opinions in order to accomplish the goals of the majority. 

I think your true fear is that you are in the minority when it comes to gun control regulations beyond universal background checks. Your tactic should be to convince others why specific laws should be passed and how they will be effective, not silence the other side from doing the same. 

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It's TOTALLY the title of the thread.  Here's why:  Over the last year or so I finally figured out that we don't actually care about gun violence.  When I say "we" I mean everyone, generally.  But als

So I have never gotten too deep into gun conversations here, mostly because guns are as close to religion in the US as you can get. I'm decidedly pro 2nd Amendment, but I also recognize that was

I would love to see civil and criminal liability attached to gun owners as well as shooters. If your gun is used in the commission of a crime, you're responsible unless you can show that the gun was o

20 hours ago, Choke said:

Wont outlaws have those?

Or are they too hard to acquire and too problematic to own?

good question

my BIL was 6 years Iraq/Iran ... he said he rarely used the fully auto feature because its simply too inaccurate

its like asking why don't criminals use 475 H&H rifles - the giant big bore guns. They are massively deadly ........ why don't people use them?  too problematic is a good way to explain it I suppose. 

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19 hours ago, Jackstraw said:

Three people dead on the floor including the shooter. More injured. And this is the success stroy. 

35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?

if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?

I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world 

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today, tens of millions of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, tens of millions of semi-auto weapons legally owned were not used incorrectly

today, 99.999999% of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, liberals want to target legally owned guns and legal gun owners and pass laws to impact us in an effort to stop the 0.00001 % 

 

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5 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?

if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?

I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world 

But how many would be killed as a result of reckless, negligent, or just purely accidental behavior?

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

today, tens of millions of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, tens of millions of semi-auto weapons legally owned were not used incorrectly

today, 99.999999% of gun owners did nothing wrong

today, liberals want to target legally owned guns and legal gun owners and pass laws to impact us in an effort to stop the 0.00001 % 

 

Which specific laws currently being proferred in a legislative body would impact you? 

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1 minute ago, Zow said:

But how many would be killed as a result of reckless, negligent, or just purely accidental behavior?

is that how we measure things ?

how many die every year of car accidents? medical errors? prescription drug recklessness or negligence? and none of those are constitutional rights 

 

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

is that how we measure things ?

 

You appear to be using death tolls as the exact measurement for things in your post. As such, wouldn't it make sense to analyze the increased deaths that would result from adding more guns into everyday situation to see if they offset the number of lives saved due to mass murders?

 

I'm also not sure where you're going with the constitutional argument. I'm not suggesting it would be unconsiitutional to "rewind and put good people with guns in school situations." I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.  

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3 hours ago, Zow said:

Which specific laws currently being proferred in a legislative body would impact you? 

you can google these gun "assault" weapon bans - I bought a nice semi-auto rifle the other day that these bans would impact. IIRC some of them would take away my son's turkey hunting shotgun because it has an adjustable stock, forearm pistol grip and muzzle brake. 

the Church shooting on Sunday, the guy used a shotgun. What if all shooters started using shotguns, would anti-gun people feel good then ?

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Zow said:

You appear to be using death tolls as the exact measurement for things in your post. As such, wouldn't it make sense to analyze the increased deaths that would result from adding more guns into everyday situation to see if they offset the number of lives saved due to mass murders?

 

I'm also not sure where you're going with the constitutional argument. I'm not suggesting it would be unconsiitutional to "rewind and put good people with guns in school situations." I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.  

exact no - but if even one life matters then shy aren't we looking at what is causing all the deaths ? why focus only on what CNN has on the front page?

we have literally tens of millions of more guns than we did in 1990 ......... and violent crimes have went down have they not ? Tens of millions carry guns now, yet there are no more murders and many instances just like the TX Church shooting or civilians with guns stopping crimes. Arming schools have worked. Guns are NOT the problem - the people wanting to harm others is the problem

"I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.  "

are you wanting to apply that to everything or just guns? heavily restrict anything that would result in accidental/negligent/reckless death ?  you wouldn't be just focusing on guns simply because of the political agenda would you ?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chicago Hooligan said:

moar gun solve all problems

nobody has ever said that

ever

 

but law abiding, good citizens with guns are a GOOD THING. Every week people save their lives with guns, save other peoples lives with guns and stop criminals with guns. Civilians, law enforcement ..... in schools, in churches, in the streets .... GUNS ARE GOOD

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3 minutes ago, Endowed said:

Guns kill.

More guns kill more.

Less guns kill less.

And guns designed to kill more than others, obviously kill more than others.

Dude, chillax! That's just, like, your opinion.....

/NRA*

*not an actual quote

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15 minutes ago, Endowed said:

Guns kill.

More guns kill more.

Less guns kill less.

And guns designed to kill more than others, obviously kill more than others.

I have guns in my safe that haven't done anything by themselves

ever

 

weird huh ?

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 11:41 AM, Stealthycat said:

35,000 dead on the highways each year and we are all comfortable with auto safety and highway safety and the success of all that huh ?

if we could rewind and put good people with guns in all the school shootings, mall shootings, concert shootings etc ......... I wonder how radically different the results of those shootings would be ?

I think we know far, far fewer would have been killed by the evil criminals of the world 

I don't know the exact figure, but I thought the news said there were nearly 200 people in that church.

Rather than 197 lives saved--they focus on the 3 lost.  It's comical.

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On 12/31/2019 at 12:54 PM, Zow said:

You appear to be using death tolls as the exact measurement for things in your post. As such, wouldn't it make sense to analyze the increased deaths that would result from adding more guns into everyday situation to see if they offset the number of lives saved due to mass murders?

 

I'm also not sure where you're going with the constitutional argument. I'm not suggesting it would be unconsiitutional to "rewind and put good people with guns in school situations." I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.  

Of course not.

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45 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I don't know the exact figure, but I thought the news said there were nearly 200 people in that church.

Rather than 197 lives saved--they focus on the 3 lost.  It's comical.

Because they're dead. Killed by a gun. Being alive isn't really noteworthy.

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1 hour ago, jm192 said:

Right.  Mass shooting, gunman stopped.  Let's not talk about the lives saved. 

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to talk about "potential gunman prevented"?

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2 minutes ago, msommer said:

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to talk about "potential gunman prevented"?

But I don't live in that fairy tale.  I don't believe that we're going to pass a law next week and the shootings will all stop.  Bad people will want to do bad things.  And rather than seeing the victory in preventing hundreds of deaths--you choose to focus on the "WE DIDN'T STOP 'EM ALL.  GUNS FAILED AGAIN!!"

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1 minute ago, jm192 said:

But I don't live in that fairy tale.  I don't believe that we're going to pass a law next week and the shootings will all stop.  Bad people will want to do bad things.  And rather than seeing the victory in preventing hundreds of deaths--you choose to focus on the "WE DIDN'T STOP 'EM ALL.  GUNS FAILED AGAIN!!"

Don't put words in my mouth

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32 minutes ago, jm192 said:

But I don't live in that fairy tale.  I don't believe that we're going to pass a law next week and the shootings will all stop.  Bad people will want to do bad things.  And rather than seeing the victory in preventing hundreds of deaths--you choose to focus on the "WE DIDN'T STOP 'EM ALL.  GUNS FAILED AGAIN!!"

It's not a fairytale. There are examples all over the world.

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20 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

It's not a fairytale. There are examples all over the world.

And there aren't as many guns/mentally ill people in the rest of the world.  But we'll keep pretending it's the same as everywhere else and taking guns away from the Church goers will somehow save those 3 people.

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21 minutes ago, jm192 said:

And there aren't as many guns/mentally ill people in the rest of the world.  But we'll keep pretending it's the same as everywhere else and taking guns away from the Church goers will somehow save those 3 people.

Does the US have a higher ratio of mentally ill people than the rest of the world? I mean it would explain a lot, but is that a fact?

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3 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

Because they're dead. Killed by a gun. Being alive isn't really noteworthy.

Democrats say fewer guns would mean more people alive - is that the goal (noteworthy) or isn't it ?

I think it is - and good guys with gun kills either kill or force the bad guy to kill themselves or capture the bad guys in almost every situation like this (mass shooting)

good guys with guns wins - if they didn't, we'd have tens of thousands of people being killed every year

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1 hour ago, Apple Jack said:

It's not a fairytale. There are examples all over the world.

not in a free country the size of the USA with our melting pot of people - no there isn't examples all over the world

if you want what other countries have go to them and enjoy them

I think if you went to a highly regulated gun country and became a citizen you'd be very disappointed. There is a reason most of the world wants to come to the USA - we're the best country period. 

These 10,000 wackos that want to hurt others every year and kill .... if we'd get rid of that super small % of people, there would be no issues right ?

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good people with guns win again against bad people with guns

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-burglary

 

A Florida woman who was eight-months pregnant and came out wielding an AR-15 rifle reportedly saved her husband and pre-teen daughter last week from a pair of violent intruders who'd broken into the family's home — with the gun-toting matriarch fatally striking one of the men, who was later found dead in a nearby ditch.

Jeremy King was at his home in Lithia, 25 miles southeast of Tampa, at 9 p.m. Wednesday night when two armed men, wearing masks and hoods, broke inside.

 

"As soon as they had got the back door opened, they had a pistol on me and was grabbing my 11-year-old daughter,” King told Bay News 9. “I’m telling them, ‘I have nothing for you,' and they’re like, ‘Give me everything you got.’ It became real violent, real fast.”

AR-15 under fire: 2020 Democrats target so-called 'assault weapons'

King said one of the burglars pistol-whipped him and another kicked him in the head, creating a commotion that attracted the attention of his wife, who walked into the room to see what the noise was — and soon found herself dodging a bullet.

The woman, who was not identified, reportedly retreated and grabbed an AR-15 that was legally inside their house, returning to the room and shooting the intruders, hitting one of them.

“When he came toward the back door in her line of sight, she clipped him,” King said of his wife. “He made it from my back door to roughly 200 feet out in the front ditch before the AR did its thing.”

The man was later found dead in the ditch, according to the news outlet. The other burglar fled when his friend was shot.

 

“Them guys came in with two normal pistols and my AR stopped it. [My wife] evened the playing field and kept them from killing me," King said, noting he suffered a fractured eye socket, a fractured sinus cavity and a concussion, and needed "20 stitches and three staples in my head."

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30 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

good people with guns win again against bad people with guns

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-burglary

 

A Florida woman who was eight-months pregnant and came out wielding an AR-15 rifle reportedly saved her husband and pre-teen daughter last week from a pair of violent intruders who'd broken into the family's home — with the gun-toting matriarch fatally striking one of the men, who was later found dead in a nearby ditch.

Jeremy King was at his home in Lithia, 25 miles southeast of Tampa, at 9 p.m. Wednesday night when two armed men, wearing masks and hoods, broke inside.

 

"As soon as they had got the back door opened, they had a pistol on me and was grabbing my 11-year-old daughter,” King told Bay News 9. “I’m telling them, ‘I have nothing for you,' and they’re like, ‘Give me everything you got.’ It became real violent, real fast.”

AR-15 under fire: 2020 Democrats target so-called 'assault weapons'

King said one of the burglars pistol-whipped him and another kicked him in the head, creating a commotion that attracted the attention of his wife, who walked into the room to see what the noise was — and soon found herself dodging a bullet.

The woman, who was not identified, reportedly retreated and grabbed an AR-15 that was legally inside their house, returning to the room and shooting the intruders, hitting one of them.

“When he came toward the back door in her line of sight, she clipped him,” King said of his wife. “He made it from my back door to roughly 200 feet out in the front ditch before the AR did its thing.”

The man was later found dead in the ditch, according to the news outlet. The other burglar fled when his friend was shot.

 

“Them guys came in with two normal pistols and my AR stopped it. [My wife] evened the playing field and kept them from killing me," King said, noting he suffered a fractured eye socket, a fractured sinus cavity and a concussion, and needed "20 stitches and three staples in my head."

https://patch.com/florida/bloomingdale/2-arrested-lithia-home-invasion-involving-pregnant-woman

Sounds like the husband was a criminal and that is why he needed the AR.

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At 8:44 p.m. on Oct. 30, two men burst through the front door of the home in the 100 block of Old Welcome Road. The sheriff's office believes the home was targeted by the robbers due to criminal activity that was occurring inside.

 

where does it say husband? what criminal activity was found? 

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30 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

At 8:44 p.m. on Oct. 30, two men burst through the front door of the home in the 100 block of Old Welcome Road. The sheriff's office believes the home was targeted by the robbers due to criminal activity that was occurring inside.

 

where does it say husband? what criminal activity was found? 

You read the article. If I had to guess they were selling drugs and the people who broke in were robbing them.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2019/12/17/lithia-man-loses-custody-of-children-following-home-invasion

The state later took away his kids because of the suspected criminal activity that was taking place in the home of the guy with the AR.  No mention if they took away the guns.

Seems like a great situation all around.

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35 minutes ago, The General said:

You read the article. If I had to guess they were selling drugs and the people who broke in were robbing them.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2019/12/17/lithia-man-loses-custody-of-children-following-home-invasion

The state later took away his kids because of the suspected criminal activity that was taking place in the home of the guy with the AR.  No mention if they took away the guns.

Seems like a great situation all around.

if that is a true guess, then police would have found drugs and will make appropriate charges

what we do know, is that the AR15 was legally owned so the lady owning the gun would never have been a felon

"

King, who does have a criminal record for marijuana possession, strongly denies he is involved in any current criminal activity. 

“I feel like I've been victimized here and now my children are still being victimized,” he said. 

Several custody hearings related to this case are scheduled for next month."

 

 

you might very well be right, the courts will decide but he's innocent until proven guilty right ? 

 

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

if that is a true guess, then police would have found drugs and will make appropriate charges

what we do know, is that the AR15 was legally owned so the lady owning the gun would never have been a felon

"

King, who does have a criminal record for marijuana possession, strongly denies he is involved in any current criminal activity. 

“I feel like I've been victimized here and now my children are still being victimized,” he said. 

Several custody hearings related to this case are scheduled for next month."

 

 

you might very well be right, the courts will decide but he's innocent until proven guilty right ? 

 

That's why I said it looks like in my original post. Criminals robbing criminals. People getting killed. Little kids in the house. Sounds like a wonderful situation.

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18 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

not in a free country the size of the USA with our melting pot of people - no there isn't examples all over the world

if you want what other countries have go to them and enjoy them

I think if you went to a highly regulated gun country and became a citizen you'd be very disappointed. There is a reason most of the world wants to come to the USA - we're the best country period. 

These 10,000 wackos that want to hurt others every year and kill .... if we'd get rid of that super small % of people, there would be no issues right ?

The US is not more “free” than dozens of other countries in the world.  You keep making this claim and I have asked you before to explain why you think it is.  Which you have yet to do.  

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3 minutes ago, zoonation said:

The US is not more “free” than dozens of other countries in the world.  You keep making this claim and I have asked you before to explain why you think it is.  Which you have yet to do.  

Well, for one thing, free to have guns....

(Yes, I know you are Canadian and also can have guns. The argument still is no less flimsy than most others used by the gun guys)

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13 minutes ago, The General said:

That's why I said it looks like in my original post. Criminals robbing criminals. People getting killed. Little kids in the house. Sounds like a wonderful situation.

So the heroic mom may have been the defender of the stash, not the little ones...

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9 minutes ago, msommer said:

Well, for one thing, free to have guns....

(Yes, I know you are Canadian and also can have guns. The argument still is no less flimsy than most others used by the gun guys)

I’m so glad I live in a society that doesn’t allow people to walk around with a gun. Or a ####### AR15.  

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1 hour ago, zoonation said:

The US is not more “free” than dozens of other countries in the world.  You keep making this claim and I have asked you before to explain why you think it is.  Which you have yet to do.  

that would be a long thread - you'd have to take into account our Constitutional Freedoms and weigh them against and with the countries you think have such great gun laws. You'd also have to weight the total crimes - look at UK. Not many gun deaths, many many knife deaths. The violence wasn't solved by low numbers of guns (shocking huh?? :( )

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1 hour ago, zoonation said:

I’m so glad I live in a society that doesn’t allow people to walk around with a gun. Or a ####### AR15.  

people in the USA don't walk around with AR15's and each day, tens of millions walk around with concealed weapons with no issues at all

I think its incredible that people think violence is directly tied to an inanimate object

it isnt

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factoid 

36,626,000 is population of Canada 2017

12,708,000 guns owned, 10,626,558 unregistered

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

the most interesting thing .. Canada's rate of 22 percent of households owning firearms

In 2019, about 37 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in possession.

 

 

Why isn't Canada's murder rate higher?  while 22% isn't 37% with all the guns Canadian's have access to, there should be way more murders with guns IF guns are the problem

they're not though, are they ?

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3 hours ago, The General said:

That's why I said it looks like in my original post. Criminals robbing criminals. People getting killed. Little kids in the house. Sounds like a wonderful situation.

It's relatively common (and is sometimes referred to as "hitting a lick").  In many cases, a drug dealer's client will be the one robbing the place. The reasoning for this is likely obvious, but if not robbing your or a known drug dealer (especially after a big purchase) makes sense because; 1) compared to some random home, the robber knows there's very likely substantial cash inside; 2) since that cash was unlawfully obtained, a drug dealer is less likely to report the robbery. 

In my experience, the above scenario is far more common than the random home invasion/residential burglary. 

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On 12/31/2019 at 2:17 PM, Stealthycat said:

you can google these gun "assault" weapon bans - I bought a nice semi-auto rifle the other day that these bans would impact. IIRC some of them would take away my son's turkey hunting shotgun because it has an adjustable stock, forearm pistol grip and muzzle brake. 

the Church shooting on Sunday, the guy used a shotgun. What if all shooters started using shotguns, would anti-gun people feel good then ?

 

 

 

exact no - but if even one life matters then shy aren't we looking at what is causing all the deaths ? why focus only on what CNN has on the front page?

we have literally tens of millions of more guns than we did in 1990 ......... and violent crimes have went down have they not ? Tens of millions carry guns now, yet there are no more murders and many instances just like the TX Church shooting or civilians with guns stopping crimes. Arming schools have worked. Guns are NOT the problem - the people wanting to harm others is the problem

"I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.  "

are you wanting to apply that to everything or just guns? heavily restrict anything that would result in accidental/negligent/reckless death ?  you wouldn't be just focusing on guns simply because of the political agenda would you ?

 

 

 

 

Stealthy, I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say here or what you're asking me. Politically, I'm a registered Republican and, legally and philosophically, I generally would argue in favor of individual gun ownership and against overly restrictive gun laws. I am unaware of some of the bans you reference 

The point that I was trying to make was in response to your suggestion that schools be heavily armed and trained. My fear of that is that having guns in most classrooms may lead to deaths resulting from negligent, reckless, and accidental conduct. And, if those deaths outweigh the deaths saved by school shootings, then the "expected value" of your proferred solution is in the negative. This isn't politics or law. This is merely statistics and looking at your suggested solution from a cost-benefit perspective. 

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49 minutes ago, Zow said:

It's relatively common (and is sometimes referred to as "hitting a lick").  In many cases, a drug dealer's client will be the one robbing the place. The reasoning for this is likely obvious, but if not robbing your or a known drug dealer (especially after a big purchase) makes sense because; 1) compared to some random home, the robber knows there's very likely substantial cash inside; 2) since that cash was unlawfully obtained, a drug dealer is less likely to report the robbery. 

In my experience, the above scenario is far more common than the random home invasion/residential burglary. 

omar's coming

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I think its incredible that people think violence is directly tied to an inanimate object

it isnt

It isn't?  How does the gun violence/death rate compare to the pool noodle violence/death rate?  or the loaf of bread violence/death rate?  

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