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8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

really? Does LA not have crime then? or are you just rolling the dice it won't be you ?

say, do ya'll lock your doors at night? lock your car when you're in the mall or at work? security alarms? why ?

Locking my doors or car or having an alarm is not the same as owning/carrying a gun.

I've never heard of a 5 year old accidentally shooting his little brother with a locked door.

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It's TOTALLY the title of the thread.  Here's why:  Over the last year or so I finally figured out that we don't actually care about gun violence.  When I say "we" I mean everyone, generally.  But als

So I have never gotten too deep into gun conversations here, mostly because guns are as close to religion in the US as you can get. I'm decidedly pro 2nd Amendment, but I also recognize that was

I would love to see civil and criminal liability attached to gun owners as well as shooters. If your gun is used in the commission of a crime, you're responsible unless you can show that the gun was o

8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/29/off-duty-cop-shoots-driver-attempting-to-run-over-pedestrians-philadelphia-police-say.html

another auto used in an assault - time to ban all automobiles? it'll save lives - isn't that worth it ??

I'm with you in regards to guns in that I don't want them banned but your arguments suck so bad.  Quit using the same lame comparisons every time because they are terrible.  As much as I don't want guns to be banned I can't deny that there is a serious issue and something needs to be done.

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I think what we all mostly want is for everyone else's guns to be banned. Which sorta follows the larger scaled idea of how we justify having a military ten times bigger than everyone else's -- because we're the only ones who can be trusted with that kind of power.

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9 minutes ago, McJose said:

Locking my doors or car or having an alarm is not the same as owning/carrying a gun.

I've never heard of a 5 year old accidentally shooting his little brother with a locked door.

no that's true

you are locking your doors, a security system, deterrents for crime - that's all a gun is for most people, protection 

do you want to ban swimming pools/swimming and large breed dogs? 3500 drownings, Each day about 1,000 U.S. citizens require emergency care treatment for serious dog bite injuries. Annually, about 9,500 citizens are hospitalized due to dog bite injuries.Altogether in 2016, a record 356 children were involved in dog attacks in which at least one human victim was killed or disfigured. ..

and that's what we REALLY are talking about here isn't it? human lives, the value of them vs the cost of society

we could almost eliminate auto deaths by severely restricting speed and GPS proximity from one car to the next and yes, it could be done. People don't want it - they don't want the inconvenience and if that's 35,000 deaths every year and hundreds of thousands of accidents and hundreds of millions in insurance claims that's ok

 

I know gun deaths are bad as far as accidental and murders etc. I also know guns are DANG good - they surround Hillary Clinton every minute of the day, they're what makes Hollywood safe, professional athletes, police etc. You cannot discount that or shouldn't anyway. GUNS ARE GOOD !

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27 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I have seen this debate before and I've found that not having a gun available for a suicidal person can help prevent it.  A gun is easier to use, quicker and is a higher percent chance of being fatal over other ways to commit suicide.  There is a better chance a person survives a suicide attempt from drugs or cutting.  There is also a chance that person decides they no longer want to commit suicide after failing to the first time.  Using a gun most often does not allow for a second chance.

this is true

I think we as a society really need to focus on the people BEFORE they get to that point though

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1 minute ago, roadkill1292 said:

I think what we all mostly want is for everyone else's guns to be banned. Which sorta follows the larger scaled idea of how we justify having a military ten times bigger than everyone else's -- because we're the only ones who can be trusted with that kind of power.

Why would we have to justify the size of our military to anyone but ourselves?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:

this is true

I think we as a society really need to focus on the people BEFORE they get to that point though

That's a major part of the problem but I will not deny the fact that access to guns can be a problem as well.  It can be both.

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17 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

As much as I don't want guns to be banned I can't deny that there is a serious issue and something needs to be done.

I've given several things that could be done - real things that would really make a difference.

Multiple cities in the US have serious gun laws that do little for their crime waves. Obviously because ban guns means criminals have them, police have them, legal law abiding do not and have no means of self protection. 

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52 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That's a major part of the problem but I will not deny the fact that access to guns can be a problem as well.  It can be both.

so pass laws that affect the 99% of law abiding people ?

a free society is going to have issues when the people make bad choices

do you agree there really should be no drunk driving in the USA? I mean everyone knows not to do it, the penalties are harsh ..... why does it happen ? stupid people? bad choices? access to autos and liquor when they shouldn't be allowed to access it ? 

What is the root case - and fix that, and all the rest will not matter much.

 

again i ask - why is all the good that guns do not factor in? Not you exactly but everyone else? 

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so pass laws that affect the 99% of law abiding people ?

a free society is going to have issues when the people make bad choices

do you agree there really should be no drunk driving in the USA? I mean everyone knows not to do it, the penalties are harsh ..... why does it happen ? stupid people? bad choices? access to autos and liquor when they shouldn't be allowed to access it ? 

What is the root case - and fix that, and all the rest will not matter much.

 

again i ask - why is all the good that guns do not factor in? Not you exactly but everyone else? 

Calm down.  Lets have a discussion on whether anything can be done and how.  It's hard to have a constructive conversation when you jump to the claims that you have made.

I didn't say anything about passing laws that affect 99% of law abiding people and I don't know why you felt the need to even say it.

I'm not talking about taking away any freedoms so why bring it up?

I do agree that drunk driving should be illegal and it is illegal.  I agree with the harsh penalties.  I believe that without it being illegal and having harsh penalties that drunk driving incidents would be much higher.

Nothing will eliminate deaths from guns.  I'm trying to discuss if there are ways to lower the amount of deaths.  Can this happen while still allowing Americans the right to bear arms?  Can it be discussed without throwing out ridiculous claims.

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

what do you know about Switzerland their gun laws / violence?

the problem isn't the guns - its the people wanting to do harm. 

you can't be serious.  I will look it up but will venture a guess that not a single person in switzerland died last year as a result of a civilian discharging a firearm.  BRB.

 

Edit:  according to Wiki, there were 0.21 gun related homicides in Switzerland per 100,000 people in 2015.  The US had 3.61 or about 16 times as many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

these charts help put it in a global perspective: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries

If America were in the Middle-East/ North Africa it would comfortably be in the silver medal position for most gun related deaths.

almost medals in sub-Saharan Africa too.

 

Here is a summary of homicides by country (any cause, not just guns) as of 2014: https://knoema.com/atlas/topics/Crime-Statistics/Homicides/Homicides

America trending right between Russia and Columbia in 7th place (14,164)!  Next reputable liberal democracy with stable rule of law and institutions...France in 27th place (792).

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Hey Stealthycat, I know you weren’t around here back in 2009, but if you want to read one of the all time greatest threads here at footballguys, take some time and read the “Stoner Claus” thread:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/492591-woke-in-the-middle-of-the-night-to-find-a-stranger-in-my-apt/

I don’t want to spoil the thread for you so read the spoiler only after you read the thread or if you’re not gonna read the thread.

 

So at the beginning of the thread there were a bunch of posters with a similar mindset to you that said if someone broke into their house they would have shot him.  If that happened instead of what actually happened, the thread would have been a lot less hilarious.  And a nice dude would have been dead and his family would have been devastated and it would have been traumatic for drpill and his kid too.  Just something to consider.

 [\spoiler]

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat
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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Calm down.  Lets have a discussion on whether anything can be done and how.  It's hard to have a constructive conversation when you jump to the claims that you have made.

I didn't say anything about passing laws that affect 99% of law abiding people and I don't know why you felt the need to even say it.

I'm not talking about taking away any freedoms so why bring it up?

I do agree that drunk driving should be illegal and it is illegal.  I agree with the harsh penalties.  I believe that without it being illegal and having harsh penalties that drunk driving incidents would be much higher.

Nothing will eliminate deaths from guns.  I'm trying to discuss if there are ways to lower the amount of deaths.  Can this happen while still allowing Americans the right to bear arms?  Can it be discussed without throwing out ridiculous claims.

I'm not excited, I don't need to calm down.

Others have went so far as to say repeal the 2nd Amendment and ban all guns - I was speaking to them, I thought I was clear on that. Sorry.

On the bolded - do you feel we have common sense drunk driving laws? We still have a lot of deaths and injuries to it, but what more could we do without negatively affecting all the people who don't DUI ? 

Because that's where I feel we are right now - maybe harsher penalties, fines, taking away privilege to drive etc. but right now, the problem isn't the illegal part of doing it, its the people's wanting to do it that's the problem. 

Same with guns. We have common sense gun laws, a lot of them. For those that still murder or suicide ? That's beyond common sense and those people need addressed, not all the legal law abiding people

 

serious question - 50 years ago we had fewer population, less media coverage and stats/records ........ but I think you might agree as many % homes or more in the United States had guns in them and gun ownership and I'd think higher maybe. Why wasn't there the same numbers of school shooting, suicide, accidents etc? Do think there was or no?

I don't think there was - this is a new thing and my point is, the problem is not the guns, its the people. 

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58 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Hey Stealthycat, I know you weren’t around here back in 2009, but if you want to read one of the all time greatest threads here at footballguys, take some time and read the “Stoner Claus” thread:

I'll have time tomorrow to read it - tonight my lower back is hurting, I'm exhausted from not sleeping last night, racquetball, running ...... I'm signing off early on everything tonight. Might even be a whiskey night, I've not decided but i WILL read tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I'll have time tomorrow to read it - tonight my lower back is hurting, I'm exhausted from not sleeping last night, racquetball, running ...... I'm signing off early on everything tonight. Might even be a whiskey night, I've not decided but i WILL read tomorrow.

Have a good night hope you don’t shoot anyone.

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2 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Have a good night hope you don’t shoot anyone.

I hope nobody tries to hurt you or your family - if they do they will find victims unable to fight back which is great for the criminal, not so much the victims. 

 

But me shoot someone?  Its like you think my gun just walks around and goes off on its own. They don't do that. I don't do that, no more so than I would run someone over on my way to work, throw a rock at someone on a bicycle tomorrow on my run or stab someone with my fillet knife at the boat ramp etc.

 

Do you have knives around your house with kids? large breed dogs? swimming pool? bicycles? falls like steps etc? fireplace/burning? 

Most people do all that and more. But they do it as safely as they can- they take common sense precautions. 

read the numbers below - where is the outrage? where is the call for more laws to stop all this from happening ? Simply - there are laws, and common sense, and its up to the people in the homes to ensure safety.

its no different than with guns - and the question I asked earlier I think the answer is - we have more problems in today's world because of the people, not the guns. 

 

Quote

 

Medications are the leading cause of child poisoning today. 

Each year, more than 500,000 children under the age of five experience a potential poisoning related to medications.

More than 60,000 children are treated in emergency departments due to accidental unsupervised ingestions each year. 

Currently, more children are brought to emergency departments for medication poisonings than for motor vehicle occupant injuries.

Among young children, one of every 150 two-year-olds is being seen in the emergency department for medication-related poisoning.

From 1979 to 2006, the poisoning death rate was cut in half, declining from 0.35 to 0.17 per 100,000 children. Yet, among all child poisoning deaths the number attributable to medications increased from 36 percent to 64 percent. 

 

Quote

In 2010, CDC reported 33,041 unintentional poisoning deaths in the U.S. and another 6,599 poisoning suicides.  Unintentional poisoning was the second leading cause of injury deaths in all age groups and the leading cause of injury deaths in 25 to 64 year olds.

 

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4 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'll have time tomorrow to read it - tonight my lower back is hurting, I'm exhausted from not sleeping last night, racquetball, running ...... I'm signing off early on everything tonight. 

Try not doing it with a gun on your hip. Might help.

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6 hours ago, roadkill1292 said:

Your ability to talk in circles about the simplest of statements is an amazing albeit useless talent.

We need to get together for whiskey and some smoke.  I'll blow your mind talking in circles about the simplest of statements.

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16 hours ago, zoonation said:

you can't be serious.  I will look it up but will venture a guess that not a single person in switzerland died last year as a result of a civilian discharging a firearm.  BRB.

 

Edit:  according to Wiki, there were 0.21 gun related homicides in Switzerland per 100,000 people in 2015.  The US had 3.61 or about 16 times as many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

these charts help put it in a global perspective: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries

 

nice article I read which summarizes what I've been trying to say and nobody here wants to acknowledge ... the problem is the people, not the weapons or tools used in violence

 

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.

“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.

That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.

 

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17 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'm not excited, I don't need to calm down.

Others have went so far as to say repeal the 2nd Amendment and ban all guns - I was speaking to them, I thought I was clear on that. Sorry.

On the bolded - do you feel we have common sense drunk driving laws? We still have a lot of deaths and injuries to it, but what more could we do without negatively affecting all the people who don't DUI ? 

Because that's where I feel we are right now - maybe harsher penalties, fines, taking away privilege to drive etc. but right now, the problem isn't the illegal part of doing it, its the people's wanting to do it that's the problem. 

Same with guns. We have common sense gun laws, a lot of them. For those that still murder or suicide ? That's beyond common sense and those people need addressed, not all the legal law abiding people

 

serious question - 50 years ago we had fewer population, less media coverage and stats/records ........ but I think you might agree as many % homes or more in the United States had guns in them and gun ownership and I'd think higher maybe. Why wasn't there the same numbers of school shooting, suicide, accidents etc? Do think there was or no?

I don't think there was - this is a new thing and my point is, the problem is not the guns, its the people. 

Why can't it be both?

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11 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Why can't it be both?

are automobiles the reason we have drunk drivers? are airplanes the reason we had 9-11? is U-haul the reason we had OKC terrorism? 

is Baskin Robbins the reason we have fat people ?

 

a gun in the home is no more dangerous than poison under the kitchen sink, prescription drugs, knives, swimming pools, stairs, the auto parked in the drive way etc. Misuse any of those, and injury or death can occur. Take good common sense precautions, teach your kids, that's what needs done, not banning everything. 

right now, we have good gun common sense gun laws, what we need it more good common sense people

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

are automobiles the reason we have drunk drivers? are airplanes the reason we had 9-11? is U-haul the reason we had OKC terrorism? 

is Baskin Robbins the reason we have fat people ?

 

a gun in the home is no more dangerous than poison under the kitchen sink, prescription drugs, knives, swimming pools, stairs, the auto parked in the drive way etc. Misuse any of those, and injury or death can occur. Take good common sense precautions, teach your kids, that's what needs done, not banning everything. 

right now, we have good gun common sense gun laws, what we need it more good common sense people

You seriously need to stop using the same examples every time.  They get used way too much and are flawed excuses.  I get the point you are trying to make but they are not the same.  None of those things you listed are actually manufactured to kill.  The number one purpose of a gun is to take a life, whether it be a human or animal.  There are other uses that have come about over the years but the main purpose remains to kill.

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15 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

You seriously need to stop using the same examples every time.  They get used way too much and are flawed excuses.  I get the point you are trying to make but they are not the same.  None of those things you listed are actually manufactured to kill.  The number one purpose of a gun is to take a life, whether it be a human or animal.  There are other uses that have come about over the years but the main purpose remains to kill.

The analogies tend to be so elementary unsound that it just about invalidates any point he might be trying to make.  

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2 minutes ago, thayman said:

The analogies tend to be so elementary unsound that it just about invalidates any point he might be trying to make.  

I find that he's one end of the spectrum.  There are those who feel all guns should be banned no matter what and then there are people like Stealthy.  I don't see why a rational conversation can't be had to meet somewhere in the middle.

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

I find that he's one end of the spectrum.  There are those who feel all guns should be banned no matter what and then there are people like Stealthy.  I don't see why a rational conversation can't be had to meet somewhere in the middle.

agreed.  I love guns and own a number of them, something needs to be done in the country regarding guns.  Those that muddy the waters and squeal and scream about Obama/Hilary are coming for their guns need to stop with the nonsense.  

Reasonable folks in the middle need to start telling the fringe loons to shut the hell up.

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

You seriously need to stop using the same examples every time.  They get used way too much and are flawed excuses.  I get the point you are trying to make but they are not the same.  None of those things you listed are actually manufactured to kill.  The number one purpose of a gun is to take a life, whether it be a human or animal.  There are other uses that have come about over the years but the main purpose remains to kill.

there is truth to that- but guns do far more than just kill, they save lives, save people from assaults, violence, crime ............. they can be used for great good or great evil

which comes back around to the problem is the person using the gun

the examples I use are true as well especially if people really want to say saving lives is the issue which is really isn't

I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly

 

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51 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

There are those who feel all guns should be banned no matter what and then there are people like Stealthy.  I don't see why a rational conversation can't be had to meet somewhere in the middle.

I've given multiple examples of ways to make society safer from crazy people. 

 

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2 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I find that he's one end of the spectrum.  There are those who feel all guns should be banned no matter what and then there are people like Stealthy.  I don't see why a rational conversation can't be had to meet somewhere in the middle.

GL having that conversation with that poster

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

there is truth to that- but guns do far more than just kill, they save lives, save people from assaults, violence, crime ............. they can be used for great good or great evil

which comes back around to the problem is the person using the gun

the examples I use are true as well especially if people really want to say saving lives is the issue which is really isn't

I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly

 

I bet the parents of the children murdered in school shootings would disagree.

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1 minute ago, thayman said:

I bet the parents of the children murdered in school shootings would disagree.

Stealthy's argument will remain that it was a personal problem, not a gun problem.  While that is a huge reason, and I completely agree with it, I would like to know why a person that is sick enough to commit an act like this has a gun in the first place.  I don't think Stealthy cares to have that part of conversation. 

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Stealthy's argument will remain that it was a personal problem, not a gun problem.  While that is a huge reason, and I completely agree with it, I would like to know why a person that is sick enough to commit an act like this has a gun in the first place.  I don't think Stealthy cares to have that part of conversation. 

His point is just devoid of any semblance of reason or intelligence.

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1 minute ago, thayman said:

His point is just devoid of any semblance of reason or intelligence.

I think he's right about it being a people problem though.  It's true, we have some major issues in our country with how we deal with mental health.  When you have certain areas full of troubled people and then allow them easy access to guns you're going to have some big problems.

I don't know how to make this happen but I've always believed if we could make it easier for everyone to obtain a better way of life then we would see less crime and shootings.  When everyone has access to great education, healthcare and jobs I think that could help a great deal.  It's just theory of mine and obviously not without it's flaws.

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4 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I think he's right about it being a people problem though.  It's true, we have some major issues in our country with how we deal with mental health.  When you have certain areas full of troubled people and then allow them easy access to guns you're going to have some big problems.

I don't know how to make this happen but I've always believed if we could make it easier for everyone to obtain a better way of life then we would see less crime and shootings.  When everyone has access to great education, healthcare and jobs I think that could help a great deal.  It's just theory of mine and obviously not without it's flaws.

It's definitly a people problem.  But when your point is:  "I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly" You should probably be told you don't have a very good handle on reality.

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly

But that implies that I only want guns regulated because I don't have one to regulate - in other words, so others bear the burden, not me.  The reason I want guns regulated is to reduce the risk of shootings, which is the same reason I don't own one to begin with.  I'm not looking to be treated differently.  I want everyone to face the same restrictions.

It's not like saying I think Californians' taxes should be higher when I lie in Rhode Island.

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2 hours ago, randall146 said:

The reason I want guns regulated is to reduce the risk of shootings, which is the same reason I don't own one to begin with.  I'm not looking to be treated differently.  I want everyone to face the same restrictions.

do you apply that reasoning to everything?

 

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2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

You’re ignoring my constitutional right to shoot you*

 

if you are threatening my life yet - other than that no, there is no right to shoot anyone is there? Police have laws/rules backing their jobs ... but non-police I don't think that's true

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3 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I don't know how to make this happen

I asked the question and I think everyone ignored it .... 75-100 years ago was gun violence like this a problem as far as kids taking guns and shooting themselves or people, accidents in the homes, school type shootings etc? 

I don't think it was ..... people have changed. 

My Dad took guns into the class room when he was a kid. I had guns in my truck from the time I drove until I graduated in 1987. That's literally look outside in the parking lot and the trucks in the small lot at a small school half of 'em had guns in the rack. 

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34 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I asked the question and I think everyone ignored it .... 75-100 years ago was gun violence like this a problem as far as kids taking guns and shooting themselves or people, accidents in the homes, school type shootings etc? 

I don't think it was ..... people have changed. 

My Dad took guns into the class room when he was a kid. I had guns in my truck from the time I drove until I graduated in 1987. That's literally look outside in the parking lot and the trucks in the small lot at a small school half of 'em had guns in the rack. 

I have no idea.  Is there any data to show the number of guns per person?  Shooting per population?  Type of guns?  What was the culture compared to now?  

I don’t think comparing anything from now to 100 years ago does any good.  Life is not even close to being the same. 

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