McJose
Footballguy
Locking my doors or car or having an alarm is not the same as owning/carrying a gun.
I've never heard of a 5 year old accidentally shooting his little brother with a locked door.
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USA Shootings (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter randall146
- Start date
I've never heard of a 5 year old accidentally shooting his little brother with a locked door.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/29/off-duty-cop-shoots-driver-attempting-to-run-over-pedestrians-philadelphia-police-say.html
another auto used in an assault - time to ban all automobiles? it'll save lives - isn't that worth it ??
another auto used in an assault - time to ban all automobiles? it'll save lives - isn't that worth it ??
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I'm with you in regards to guns in that I don't want them banned but your arguments suck so bad. Quit using the same lame comparisons every time because they are terrible. As much as I don't want guns to be banned I can't deny that there is a serious issue and something needs to be done.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I think what we all mostly want is for everyone else's guns to be banned. Which sorta follows the larger scaled idea of how we justify having a military ten times bigger than everyone else's -- because we're the only ones who can be trusted with that kind of power.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
no that's true
you are locking your doors, a security system, deterrents for crime - that's all a gun is for most people, protection
do you want to ban swimming pools/swimming and large breed dogs? 3500 drownings, Each day about 1,000 U.S. citizens require emergency care treatment for serious dog bite injuries. Annually, about 9,500 citizens are hospitalized due to dog bite injuries.Altogether in 2016, a record 356 children were involved in dog attacks in which at least one human victim was killed or disfigured. ..
and that's what we REALLY are talking about here isn't it? human lives, the value of them vs the cost of society
we could almost eliminate auto deaths by severely restricting speed and GPS proximity from one car to the next and yes, it could be done. People don't want it - they don't want the inconvenience and if that's 35,000 deaths every year and hundreds of thousands of accidents and hundreds of millions in insurance claims that's ok
I know gun deaths are bad as far as accidental and murders etc. I also know guns are DANG good - they surround Hillary Clinton every minute of the day, they're what makes Hollywood safe, professional athletes, police etc. You cannot discount that or shouldn't anyway. GUNS ARE GOOD !
Stealthycat
Footballguy
this is true
I think we as a society really need to focus on the people BEFORE they get to that point though
jonessed
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
That's a major part of the problem but I will not deny the fact that access to guns can be a problem as well. It can be both.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I've given several things that could be done - real things that would really make a difference.
Multiple cities in the US have serious gun laws that do little for their crime waves. Obviously because ban guns means criminals have them, police have them, legal law abiding do not and have no means of self protection.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Your ability to talk in circles about the simplest of statements is an amazing albeit useless talent.
jonessed
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
so pass laws that affect the 99% of law abiding people ?Hawkeye21 said:
a free society is going to have issues when the people make bad choices
do you agree there really should be no drunk driving in the USA? I mean everyone knows not to do it, the penalties are harsh ..... why does it happen ? stupid people? bad choices? access to autos and liquor when they shouldn't be allowed to access it ?
What is the root case - and fix that, and all the rest will not matter much.
again i ask - why is all the good that guns do not factor in? Not you exactly but everyone else?
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Calm down. Lets have a discussion on whether anything can be done and how. It's hard to have a constructive conversation when you jump to the claims that you have made.
I didn't say anything about passing laws that affect 99% of law abiding people and I don't know why you felt the need to even say it.
I'm not talking about taking away any freedoms so why bring it up?
I do agree that drunk driving should be illegal and it is illegal. I agree with the harsh penalties. I believe that without it being illegal and having harsh penalties that drunk driving incidents would be much higher.
Nothing will eliminate deaths from guns. I'm trying to discuss if there are ways to lower the amount of deaths. Can this happen while still allowing Americans the right to bear arms? Can it be discussed without throwing out ridiculous claims.
zoonation
Footballguy
you can't be serious. I will look it up but will venture a guess that not a single person in switzerland died last year as a result of a civilian discharging a firearm. BRB.Stealthycat said:
Edit: according to Wiki, there were 0.21 gun related homicides in Switzerland per 100,000 people in 2015. The US had 3.61 or about 16 times as many.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
these charts help put it in a global perspective: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/06/555861898/gun-violence-how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries
If America were in the Middle-East/ North Africa it would comfortably be in the silver medal position for most gun related deaths.
almost medals in sub-Saharan Africa too.
Here is a summary of homicides by country (any cause, not just guns) as of 2014: https://knoema.com/atlas/topics/Crime-Statistics/Homicides/Homicides
America trending right between Russia and Columbia in 7th place (14,164)! Next reputable liberal democracy with stable rule of law and institutions...France in 27th place (792).
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Hey Stealthycat, I know you weren’t around here back in 2009, but if you want to read one of the all time greatest threads here at footballguys, take some time and read the “Stoner Claus” thread:
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/492591-woke-in-the-middle-of-the-night-to-find-a-stranger-in-my-apt/
I don’t want to spoil the thread for you so read the spoiler only after you read the thread or if you’re not gonna read the thread.
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/492591-woke-in-the-middle-of-the-night-to-find-a-stranger-in-my-apt/
I don’t want to spoil the thread for you so read the spoiler only after you read the thread or if you’re not gonna read the thread.
So at the beginning of the thread there were a bunch of posters with a similar mindset to you that said if someone broke into their house they would have shot him. If that happened instead of what actually happened, the thread would have been a lot less hilarious. And a nice dude would have been dead and his family would have been devastated and it would have been traumatic for drpill and his kid too. Just something to consider.
[\spoiler]
[\spoiler]
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'm not excited, I don't need to calm down.
Others have went so far as to say repeal the 2nd Amendment and ban all guns - I was speaking to them, I thought I was clear on that. Sorry.
On the bolded - do you feel we have common sense drunk driving laws? We still have a lot of deaths and injuries to it, but what more could we do without negatively affecting all the people who don't DUI ?
Because that's where I feel we are right now - maybe harsher penalties, fines, taking away privilege to drive etc. but right now, the problem isn't the illegal part of doing it, its the people's wanting to do it that's the problem.
Same with guns. We have common sense gun laws, a lot of them. For those that still murder or suicide ? That's beyond common sense and those people need addressed, not all the legal law abiding people
serious question - 50 years ago we had fewer population, less media coverage and stats/records ........ but I think you might agree as many % homes or more in the United States had guns in them and gun ownership and I'd think higher maybe. Why wasn't there the same numbers of school shooting, suicide, accidents etc? Do think there was or no?
I don't think there was - this is a new thing and my point is, the problem is not the guns, its the people.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'll have time tomorrow to read it - tonight my lower back is hurting, I'm exhausted from not sleeping last night, racquetball, running ...... I'm signing off early on everything tonight. Might even be a whiskey night, I've not decided but i WILL read tomorrow.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I hope nobody tries to hurt you or your family - if they do they will find victims unable to fight back which is great for the criminal, not so much the victims.
But me shoot someone? Its like you think my gun just walks around and goes off on its own. They don't do that. I don't do that, no more so than I would run someone over on my way to work, throw a rock at someone on a bicycle tomorrow on my run or stab someone with my fillet knife at the boat ramp etc.
Do you have knives around your house with kids? large breed dogs? swimming pool? bicycles? falls like steps etc? fireplace/burning?
Most people do all that and more. But they do it as safely as they can- they take common sense precautions.
read the numbers below - where is the outrage? where is the call for more laws to stop all this from happening ? Simply - there are laws, and common sense, and its up to the people in the homes to ensure safety.
its no different than with guns - and the question I asked earlier I think the answer is - we have more problems in today's world because of the people, not the guns.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
That joke didn’t go the way I hoped
honky kong
Footballguy
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
We need to get together for whiskey and some smoke. I'll blow your mind talking in circles about the simplest of statements.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
nice article I read which summarizes what I've been trying to say and nobody here wants to acknowledge ... the problem is the people, not the weapons or tools used in violence
One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.
“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.
“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.
That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
are automobiles the reason we have drunk drivers? are airplanes the reason we had 9-11? is U-haul the reason we had OKC terrorism?
is Baskin Robbins the reason we have fat people ?
a gun in the home is no more dangerous than poison under the kitchen sink, prescription drugs, knives, swimming pools, stairs, the auto parked in the drive way etc. Misuse any of those, and injury or death can occur. Take good common sense precautions, teach your kids, that's what needs done, not banning everything.
right now, we have good gun common sense gun laws, what we need it more good common sense people
Stealthycat
Footballguy
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Hawkeye21
Footballguy
You seriously need to stop using the same examples every time. They get used way too much and are flawed excuses. I get the point you are trying to make but they are not the same. None of those things you listed are actually manufactured to kill. The number one purpose of a gun is to take a life, whether it be a human or animal. There are other uses that have come about over the years but the main purpose remains to kill.
The analogies tend to be so elementary unsound that it just about invalidates any point he might be trying to make.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I find that he's one end of the spectrum. There are those who feel all guns should be banned no matter what and then there are people like Stealthy. I don't see why a rational conversation can't be had to meet somewhere in the middle.
agreed. I love guns and own a number of them, something needs to be done in the country regarding guns. Those that muddy the waters and squeal and scream about Obama/Hilary are coming for their guns need to stop with the nonsense.
Reasonable folks in the middle need to start telling the fringe loons to shut the hell up.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
there is truth to that- but guns do far more than just kill, they save lives, save people from assaults, violence, crime ............. they can be used for great good or great evil
which comes back around to the problem is the person using the gun
the examples I use are true as well especially if people really want to say saving lives is the issue which is really isn't
I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
As long as guns are not touched in any way, right? Are you against any changes to gun laws?
msommer
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
It's certainly something I would like to avoid. Regardless of who is holding the gun
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Stealthy's argument will remain that it was a personal problem, not a gun problem. While that is a huge reason, and I completely agree with it, I would like to know why a person that is sick enough to commit an act like this has a gun in the first place. I don't think Stealthy cares to have that part of conversation.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I think he's right about it being a people problem though. It's true, we have some major issues in our country with how we deal with mental health. When you have certain areas full of troubled people and then allow them easy access to guns you're going to have some big problems.
I don't know how to make this happen but I've always believed if we could make it easier for everyone to obtain a better way of life then we would see less crime and shootings. When everyone has access to great education, healthcare and jobs I think that could help a great deal. It's just theory of mine and obviously not without it's flaws.
It's definitly a people problem. But when your point is: "I'm curious how many people strongly against guns shoot guns/own guns? I'm guessing not a high % .... in other words, they want to ban something that doesn't affect them directly" You should probably be told you don't have a very good handle on reality.
randall146
Footballguy
But that implies that I only want guns regulated because I don't have one to regulate - in other words, so others bear the burden, not me. The reason I want guns regulated is to reduce the risk of shootings, which is the same reason I don't own one to begin with. I'm not looking to be treated differently. I want everyone to face the same restrictions.
It's not like saying I think Californians' taxes should be higher when I lie in Rhode Island.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
You’re ignoring my constitutional right to shoot you*
*under certain circumstances
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
if you are threatening my life yet - other than that no, there is no right to shoot anyone is there? Police have laws/rules backing their jobs ... but non-police I don't think that's true
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I asked the question and I think everyone ignored it .... 75-100 years ago was gun violence like this a problem as far as kids taking guns and shooting themselves or people, accidents in the homes, school type shootings etc?
I don't think it was ..... people have changed.
My Dad took guns into the class room when he was a kid. I had guns in my truck from the time I drove until I graduated in 1987. That's literally look outside in the parking lot and the trucks in the small lot at a small school half of 'em had guns in the rack.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I have no idea. Is there any data to show the number of guns per person? Shooting per population? Type of guns? What was the culture compared to now?Stealthycat said:
I don’t think comparing anything from now to 100 years ago does any good. Life is not even close to being the same.
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