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Shooting at high school in Florida


Otis

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11 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:
39 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Once again - Republicans accuse Democrats of creating a fake storyline with parents using their kids because....? That’s right.  That’s what a Republican is doing. 

Classic Salinsky move.

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2 hours ago, [icon] said:

Haven’t been following as I’ve been traveling and busy as hell, but this story about 4 cops hiding outside as this went down is sickening... 

And the conclusion that a better way to do things is to get (some) teachers to carry guns is just flat out beyond reason

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27 minutes ago, Yankee23Fan said:

These kids are amazing.  In less than two weeks they've moved a national conversation and have been brutally responding to the social media attacks in ways that the older generations just don't know how to deal with.

If they keep this up they are going to win this fight.

In the short term you mean. Because in the long term we old ones are all but dust and bones

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A friend of mine said something to me that seems so obvious, though I hadn't considered (or heard it mentioned anywhere) it until that moment...

 

If teachers are legally allowed to arm themselves in our schools, gun sales have the potential to go way up. And guess who profits from gun sales?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tom Skerritt
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16 minutes ago, Tom Skerritt said:

A friend of mine said something to me that seems so obvious, though I hadn't considered (or heard it mentioned anywhere) it until that moment...

 

If teachers are legally allowed to arm themselves in our schools, gun sales have the potential to go way up. And guess who profits of gun sales?

 

 

 

 

You're overlooking the untapped movie attendant gun market. That's when they really make hay. 

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32 minutes ago, Tom Skerritt said:

A friend of mine said something to me that seems so obvious, though I hadn't considered (or heard it mentioned anywhere) it until that moment...

 

If teachers are legally allowed to arm themselves in our schools, gun sales have the potential to go way up. And guess who profits from gun sales?

 

 

 

 

I said it before, but the climax of this situation, and where the red hats and stealthycats of the world wants us to go is a militarized state in all aspects.  Everyone carrying a gun, everyone willing (and legally obligated) to shoot anyone suspected of a potential wrong doing.

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Just now, Dedfin said:

I said it before, but the climax of this situation, and where the red hats and stealthycats of the world wants us to go is a militarized state in all aspects.  Everyone carrying a gun, everyone willing (and legally obligated) to shoot anyone suspected of a potential wrong doing.

I keep telling you, the NRA will soon start funding westerns...

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10 hours ago, Reg Lllama of Brixton said:

Most schools in warm-weather parts of the country don’t have “hallways” so to speak.

This was something I noticed immediately at my kids' new school when we moved to Florida.  All the doors to all the classrooms open to the outside.  There are no halls.  There are three gated access points to the entire campus except for the fields where they play.  A mere 6 foot chain linked fence is all that is around that area.  It's sad that I have to pay attention to this sort of stuff, but if we pay the slightest bit of attention we notice how open things are.

To the question about what I'd do if building my own school.  I'd have one entrance that went through the administration building.  Everything would open inward on the school with no other external doors.  You'd probably have to have a gate or two that would remain locked to address fire or emergency exit regulations, but they would all be built into the buildings themselves....no fences.

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3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

 

To the question about what I'd do if building my own school.  I'd have one entrance that went through the administration building.  Everything would open inward on the school with no other external doors.  You'd probably have to have a gate or two that would remain locked to address fire or emergency exit regulations, but they would all be built into the buildings themselves....no fences.

This would have a TON of congestion, fire hazards, and would have the unfortunate side effect of concentrating all students into one funnel when entering/exiting the building... which is pretty much a spree shooter’s wet dream. 

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9 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

Once again - Republicans accuse Democrats of creating a fake storyline with parents using their kids because....? That’s right.  That’s what a Republican is doing. 

Hey, I’m sure we can expect a retraction/apology from our POtuS  & any “news” sites like Fox, Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, etc that reported on this story.  I’m sure that it was just an oversight on their part to not verify the emails they were provided, right?  

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1 minute ago, [icon] said:

This would have a TON of congestion, fire hazards, and would have the unfortunate side effect of concentrating all students into one funnel when entering/exiting the building... which is pretty much a spree shooter’s wet dream. 

Perhaps.....my kids' school is essentially this way right now except for the fences.  They have fences that don't do much of anything for security.  It's not bad.  There are three large corridors outside of the main entrance that are all controlled from the office.  During drop off and pick up they sometimes open one of the corridors to help with flow, but it's usually not necessary.  Minus the fences it's incredibly tough for someone to get in without going through the administration area.  I do agree that should someone decide to attack at pick up and drop off time all bets are off, but I can't think of an instance (outside of prison style) where this wouldn't be the case during drop off and pick up.  

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Just now, Bayhawks said:

Hey, I’m sure we can expect a retraction/apology from our POtuS  & any “news” sites like Fox, Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, etc that reported on this story.  I’m sure that it was just an oversight on their part to not verify the emails they were provided, right?  

Claim will be that CNN doctored the emails.

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47 minutes ago, Tom Skerritt said:

A friend of mine said something to me that seems so obvious, though I hadn't considered (or heard it mentioned anywhere) it until that moment...

 

If teachers are legally allowed to arm themselves in our schools, gun sales have the potential to go way up. And guess who profits from gun sales?

 

 

 

 

It also made me sick to my stomach when I saw the other day that gun sales go up after a shooting like this.   Not sure if that is expectation of tighter laws and people think they won't be able to get them or just for beefed up protection.  Just nauseating that the gun makers would be able to make a profit after something like that.

So yeah, win-win for the NRA and the gun manufacturers.  ESPECIALLY if we arm the teachers and there are still shootings = increase in gun sales for both reasons!

 

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31 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

It also made me sick to my stomach when I saw the other day that gun sales go up after a shooting like this.   Not sure if that is expectation of tighter laws and people think they won't be able to get them or just for beefed up protection.  Just nauseating that the gun makers would be able to make a profit after something like that.

So yeah, win-win for the NRA and the gun manufacturers.  ESPECIALLY if we arm the teachers and there are still shootings = increase in gun sales for both reasons!

 

So it becomes a positive feedback loop.  The only way I see the NRA has more orgasms over this is for them to find a way to have humans grow a third arm so we can all have 3 firearms in our hands at all times.

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1 hour ago, Tom Skerritt said:

A friend of mine said something to me that seems so obvious, though I hadn't considered (or heard it mentioned anywhere) it until that moment...

 

If teachers are legally allowed to arm themselves in our schools, gun sales have the potential to go way up. And guess who profits from gun sales?

Conservatives hate unions, public schools, and liberals.

You know what would be a great way to destroy the teachers unions and remove the liberal influence from our public schools? Replace anti-gun teachers with pro-gun teachers.

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13 hours ago, Smack Tripper said:

How the hell would the liability of arming a teacher worked?  If a kid or a fellow teacher overpowers you, finds the gun in your desk, whatever and gets your gun and starts shooting up the place, who's fault is that?  Districts going to assume that liability?  What a mindless ####### "solution" 

The gun would be in a drawer in the desk that is opened by fingerprint. All desks would be that way and the students would not know which teachers had them. 

Just my idea. Could be better ones out there. 

Smart guns would be even better if the tech could be developed. I made a post a few days ago but no one responded to it. 

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1 hour ago, [scooter] said:

Conservatives hate unions, public schools, and liberals.

You know what would be a great way to destroy the teachers unions and remove the liberal influence from our public schools? Replace anti-gun teachers with pro-gun teachers.

They can't find enough teachers now, pro or anti gun. Where would they find enough pro-gun teachers to replace anti-gun teachers from?

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19 hours ago, timschochet said:

I challenge all those who are opposed to banning the AR-15 to read the above posted article. And then I challenge you to refute it.

The anecdotal experience of one physician is nothing to base a conclusion on.  He is right  about the speed of the rounds, but he does not get into the weight of the rounds and most common handgun loads are far heavier than the .223 which is typically about 65 grains while 40 caliber handgun loads are often around 140 to 155 grains.  I have .44 magnum that are up to 300 grains.  Force is a function of speed and weight, which he sort of glosses over. Also is the bullet jacketed so it expands or not.  Rifle rounds tend to at least be semi jacketed, if not fully, while handgun loads are designed to expand leaving a larger cavity.  You also have the issue of temporary cavity vs permanent.   After the initial shock wave the cavity often closes back up on itself.  That can help sustain live or allow for quicker bleed out.  The subject is complex.  Lots of early studies neglected to take into account the hydrostatic shock to tissue. Sells can be disrupted along the wound channel but not initially appear traumatized if one is studying ballistic gel wound cavities as opposed to tissue wounds.  

Does a standard round of .223 deliver more tissue trauma than a 9mm.  Yeah.  Does it deliver more energy or trauma than a .45, probably not they are going to calculate out fairly close.   It is an interesting field of study and researchers have come to various conclusions by studying ballistic gel, tissue, or some activated clay. 

The .223 is not some magic round.  As calibers go it is not particularly deadly.  That said, I would not want to get shot with one.

Here's one bit of information  https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-bullet-impact-wound-differ-according-to-caliber.  

None of this is to refute the Doctor who is not incorrect, it just happens that he is not really well qualified to speak on the matter.  He is more or less lucky in his conclusions since he lacks the information to make a well informed opinion.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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24 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

The anecdotal experience of one physician is nothing to base a conclusion on.  He is right  about the speed of the rounds, but he does not get into the weight of the rounds and most common handgun loads are far heavier than the .223 which is typically about 65 grains while 40 caliber handgun loads are often around 140 to 155 grains.  I have .44 magnum that are up to 300 grains.  Force is a function of speed and weight, which he sort of glosses over. Also is the bullet jacketed so it expands or not.  Rifle rounds tend to at least be semi jacketed, if not fully, while handgun loads are designed to expand leaving a larger cavity.  You also have the issue of temporary cavity vs permanent.   After the initial shock wave the cavity often closes back up on itself.  That can help sustain live or allow for quicker bleed out.  The subject is complex.  Lots of early studies neglected to take into account the hydrostatic shock to tissue. Sells can be disrupted along the wound channel but not initially appear traumatized if one is studying ballistic gel wound cavities as opposed to tissue wounds.  

Does a standard round of .223 deliver more tissue trauma than a 9mm.  Yeah.  Does it deliver more energy or trauma than a .45, probably not they are going to calculate out fairly close.   It is an interesting field of study and researchers have come to various conclusions by studying ballistic gel, tissue, or some activated clay. 

The .223 is not some magic round.  As calibers go it is not particularly deadly.  That said, I would not want to get shot with one.

Here's one bit of information  https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-bullet-impact-wound-differ-according-to-caliber.  

None of this is to refute the Doctor who is not incorrect, it just happens that he is not really well qualified to speak on the matter.  He is more or less lucky in his conclusions since he lacks the information to make a well informed opinion.

:goodposting:

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4 hours ago, NREC34 said:

The gun would be in a drawer in the desk that is opened by fingerprint. All desks would be that way and the students would not know which teachers had them. 

Just my idea. Could be better ones out there. 

Smart guns would be even better if the tech could be developed. I made a post a few days ago but no one responded to it. 

My school doesn’t have AC (so the first/last few weeks of school are brutal); my history textbooks are 30 years old, and 2 years ago, the district stopped providing us with pens/pencils & paper to give to students ( & a majority don’t bring their own); but you want fingerprint controlled desk drawers, smart guns, & gun training in schools?  I’m all for discussing problems, but if we aren’t being realistic, we r just farting in the wind.

Edited by Bayhawks
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55 minutes ago, Mile High said:

They can't find enough teachers now, pro or anti gun. Where would they find enough pro-gun teachers to replace anti-gun teachers from?

Yeah if you want to take the conspiracy angle, it's that this will all make it more difficult to find teachers, schools will be labeled as unsafe and public ed will be dismantled and replaced with private online schools.

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7 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

My school doesn’t have AC (so the first/last few weeks of school are brutal); my history textbooks are 40 years old, and 2 years ago, the district stopped providing us with pens/pencils & paper to give to students ( & a majority don’t bring their own); but you want fingerprint controlled desk drawers, smart guns, & gun training in schools?  I’m all for discussing problems, but if we aren’t being realistic, we r just farting in the wind.

It’d take money to do it right. No doubt. I wouldn’t be for it done the wrong way. 

I’m reluctantly for something that could give my kid a better chance if the unthinkable happened. I’ve imagined what it would be like and it’s an unpleasant thought. 

If I can survive long enough it’ll be interesting to see if technology can help solve this crap in the future. 

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24 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

My school doesn’t have AC (so the first/last few weeks of school are brutal); my history textbooks are 30 years old, and 2 years ago, the district stopped providing us with pens/pencils & paper to give to students ( & a majority don’t bring their own); but you want fingerprint controlled desk drawers, smart guns, & gun training in schools?  I’m all for discussing problems, but if we aren’t being realistic, we r just farting in the wind.

I wish I had AC- it's so brutal when it gets hot! 

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15 minutes ago, NREC34 said:

It’d take money to do it right. No doubt. I wouldn’t be for it done the wrong way. 

I’m reluctantly for something that could give my kid a better chance if the unthinkable happened. I’ve imagined what it would be like and it’s an unpleasant thought. 

If I can survive long enough it’ll be interesting to see if technology can help solve this crap in the future. 

We could hire more people to work in schools like counselors, psychologists, social workers, etc. That will have a bigger impact than fancy drawers with guns in them. 

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3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

We could hire more people to work in schools like counselors, psychologists, social workers, etc. That will have a bigger impact than fancy drawers with guns in them. 

:goodposting:

 

But, we will still arm those people too, though, right?

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24 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

We could hire more people to work in schools like counselors, psychologists, social workers, etc. That will have a bigger impact than fancy drawers with guns in them. 

We could and we could do that too. 

None of them are going to help for squat if  someone gets through the cracks and the unthinkable happens.

 

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Just now, NREC34 said:

We could and we could do that too. 

None of them are going to help for squat if  someone gets through the cracks and the unthinkable happens.

 

Chances are the gun in the drawer won't help either. The couselors and social workers can prevent attacks from happening while also helping with all the other issues schools try to deal with. Most of our kids with mental health issues would never attack the school- they are dealing with depression, drug use, abuse at home, ptsd and are having issues making friends, being successful in school, getting clean clothes, etc. 

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2 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

This tiny post is going to get lost in this huge thread. The link is to the explanation of how Nikolas Cruz had 39 cop visits to the house with nothing happening.

Short answer: Broward County cops were knowingly covering up juvenile crimes in effort to fraudulently obtain federal funds.

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

None of this is to refute the Doctor who is not incorrect, it just happens that he is not really well qualified to speak on the matter.  He is more or less lucky in his conclusions since he lacks the information to make a well informed opinion.

If the doctor is not incorrect, what are you saying here?

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35 minutes ago, Doug B said:

If the doctor is not incorrect, what are you saying here?

I am saying a broken watch can be correct twice a day.  I am saying basing policy on anecdotal observation of one person with limited qualifications is not the way to go, that we should base it on stronger empirical evidence.  I believe that evidence is out there, but I do not like, in times of high passion, to run with passion unsupported by logic.  I do not want to find out that along with those victims we also lost the ability to reason, one with the other.

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You know an odd thing about the mental health deal? Demographically speaking black women have the lowest access to mental health care but are least likely to be involved in mass shootings. White men have the highest rates of access to mental health care but are most likely to do mass shootings. It’s almost like something else is spooling these white guys up. Like something they what or listen everyday that gives them this sense of perpetual grievance and resentment. Not sure can’t really put my finger on it...

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4 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I am saying a broken watch can be correct twice a day.  I am saying basing policy on anecdotal observation of one person with limited qualifications is not the way to go, that we should base it on stronger empirical evidence.  I believe that evidence is out there, but I do not like, in times of high passion, to run with passion unsupported by logic.  I do not want to find out that along with those victims we also lost the ability to reason, one with the other.

good post DW.  I sent that article to a good friend that is very knowledgable on firearms and he made similar points.  Didn’t dismiss it, and pointed out it’s anectdotal and not conclusive.  Sounds like it’s a very complex subject.  I’ve learned a lot from him and you.  Keep it up.

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8 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I was coming in here to post this twitter thread. It all adds up now as to why this maniac wasn’t already arrested and prevented from killing 17 people. ####### politics, government, and money. The blood is on the hands of elected officials, but the sheep will scream ban guns! Arm teachers! And these scumbags will continue their great charade. What a country. 

Edited by Billy Bats
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37 minutes ago, Billy Bats said:

I was coming in here to post this twitter thread. It all adds up now as to why this maniac wasn’t already arrested and prevented from killing 17 people. ####### politics, government, and money. The blood is on the hands of elected officials, but the sheep will scream ban guns! Arm teachers! And these scumbags will continue their great charade. What a country. 

It's very interesting but that thread has no credible evidence to prove anything they say. Are there older articles about this? This guy discovered all this awhile ago. Did he ever write about it??

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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:52 AM, [scooter] said:

Conservatives hate unions, public schools, and liberals.

You know what would be a great way to destroy the teachers unions and remove the liberal influence from our public schools? Replace anti-gun teachers with pro-gun teachers.

Pleasant thought.  

Another thing they don't seem to like is darker skinned people, and I read a couple articles in the last week that an consequence of the beefed up security at schools since Columbine is that while the shootings haven't gone done there are more arrests for non-violent crimes and students getting fast tracked to the criminal systems.  Just like outside the school systems, the black kids were the ones punished at a far higher rate than expected for their % of population in the schools.  

So basically instead of the "good old days" of the principal and counselors doing the punishments and following up, that went to the security and results in more suspensions and arrests.  

 

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