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2023 New York Jets: Bye Bye (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Octopus
- Start date
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't comment on Jets-specific forums usually, so I wouldn't know the attitude. I did comment at Gang Green Nation for a while under the name Jace Frehley, but that mostly centered around cats during game threads, IIRC. I'm serious.TLEF316 said:
So I'll do the same with someone I dreaded from the first hammy tweak. Mims. Then again, I might have already hammered home my opposition to Bell too many times, but that was a ####show from the beginning. You can do the same with Wilson. I don't think anybody here will fault anyone for lamenting more losses or passing up generational talent at the same position. The more I think about it, the more I wouldn't mind Fields, so there's that, too. JD must really like Wilson. I sure know that if my ### and reputation were on the line, I'd lean towards the pedigree, so he probably knows something we don't. Or he's like Maccagnan and he drafted a QB who has a huge knee brace in the fourth round that never was going to ever see the field for some reason, even though the situation demanded it...
I don't think that's a digression. It's a confidence waverer.
I guess maybe JD knows he gets one shot at this all, and he's going to try to get it right. That's all we have. Lets pray he's more Andy Reid than the aforementioned GM.
rockaction
Footballguy
I really just want Wilson/Fields to go two and three so NE doesn't have a chance at them. Or Lance. Keep those QBs away from our division, thank you very much.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
I don't know if Wilson will be a good QB, but on paper, he's a perfect fit for this system.
I read a SF newspaper article today about what kind QB Shanahan is looking for. He says that "it's hard to succeed if you're not an effortless talented thrower. You have to throw into tight windows, on time, with ball placement. It's hard to get people wide open in this league". That's Wilson (Darnold is the opposite). Shanahan also wants someone that is decisive.
Everyone loves that WIlson is a natural thrower and everyone talks about his "arm talent". They say he is very decisive and can throw in tight windows. Plus he can escape pressure throw off-platform.
Fields is an accurate passer and very athletic, but they say his Ohio State system is geared to hit an open WR on his first read. Some people say that it doesn't mean that Fields can't go through his progressions, it's just that he hasn't really shown that ability and thus Wilson can be projected to the NFL easier. They also say that Fields has trouble when the play breaks down under pressure, which is one of the things that Wilson does well.
Anyway, I'm sure that you've read it all, too. I think if a team works with Fields, then he can be really good. He probably needs to sit for the first season which some people think is ideal (worked for Mahomes).
Dez
Footballguy
Oops
The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise.
The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
You know what a joke your team is when Browns fans come out of the woodwork (after one good season in 40 years) to troll you.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
The timing was off, but can't totally blame him. Even tons of Jets fans were freaking out about it. It was so annoying. Who would actually give up a first round pick, much less the 12th overall for Darnold??? There is no critical thinking in our fan-base or the internet.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I was at a dinner party last night and one of the couples were each higher level employees at Johnson & Johnson and they made some joke as to what a buffoon Woody is, and they’re not football fans at all - even strictly in the context of his other business he’s seen as a clown.
rockaction
Footballguy
By like a day and a half.
He went running up to Lucy's football and Charlie Brown was already lying there with a broken back.
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Kiddnets
Footballguy
Nice title - it is ridiculous that the media narrative is no matter who the Jets draft they will ruin him and whoever the 49ers draft will be a stud....Cant argue with it after the last few yrs...but I will be happy when this stink is off the franchise....in JD and Saleh we trust! I cant take another disaster regime...
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yes right now it's really hard to argue with anyone that claims the Jets franchise has ruined QBs - whether or not those QBs were "good" to begin with doesn't really matter I suppose. The bottom line is the team has failed to make the right choices on draft day and/or failed to develop these QBs.
Right now the team deserves to be the butt of jokes - and only winning will change that. I trust JD/Saleh, but as a fan I have little choice but to do so and only time will tell whether that trust was misguided.
It is hysterical that Wilson was beloved by the media, NFL fans and even this message board (he was the next Mahomes in some circles) until the news broke that the Jets were locked into Wilson. Then all of a sudden, Wilson was fools gold and Fields was the obvious choice at No. 2 and the Jets were likely making another bad choice.
I think at this point it's Wilson, and I'll go into it with optimism until we see what ultimately happens.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
That was bound to happen. You know that everyone else is going to crap on us. It's just annoying when we do it to ourselves.
An old friend of mine that is a long time Jets fan that now runs a fantasy football site was on Twitter talking about only the Jets could screw up not taking SF's first round pick for Darnold.
I was so annoyed and told him to use some critical thinking. Who the hell in their right mind would offer that in the first place??. He responded with that we have differing opinions on Darnold. No kidding, but besides the point. He somehow thinks Darnold is a stud. Our opinions have no relation to Darnold's NFL's market value. JD would have run to accept a first rounder.
Anyway, then on Twitter and Jets message boards you have half the Jets fans crying about Wilson. Half of them crying about trading Darnold was a mistake and the other half claiming that Wilson is a one-year wonder that will break in half and we should draft Fields.
I can't wait for next week. It's been a long four months.
Todd from Utah
Footballguy
Starting to see more and more mocks where the Patriots land Fields or Lance (either through a trade up or just staying at 15) So yeah....pretty much my worst nightmare.
And yes, Todd from Utah is back again for another month. Just in time for the draft.
And yes, Todd from Utah is back again for another month. Just in time for the draft.
rockaction
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Due to a certain troll that’s allowed to roam free and play victim when he gets pushback I may be going the Todd route soon - unless I can just keep him on ignore.
Todd from Utah
Footballguy
Just make sure you don't compare Kyle kuzma's new look to Ellen Degeneres. They don't like that here....
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Staying at 15 for one of the QBs? They will all be gone by 15 (Lawrence, Wilson, Fields, Lance, and Jones). If the Patriots want a QB this year they will have to move up.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It's the right approach. I fought with other Browns fans about Berry and Stefanski last year, but I tried to stay out of any spats from outsiders. We earned our butt of all jokes medal and it was on the team to shed themselves of that rep. I like Saleh, I'm encouraged by Douglas, and thankfully the Johnson's agreed to dismantle their bass ackwards org structure. Hopefully you are to '21 what we were to '20.
Or take Mond in the 2nd, maybe 3rd. Simms has Mond as the 4th best QB, after Wilson, Lawrence and Jones.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
They did scrap the system of having the HC and GM report to the owner separately. Saleh now reports to Joe Douglas.
MAC_32
Footballguy
This is what reminded me of the Browns. It isn't a perfect comparison since the Haslam's were neutered by Dorsey and not Berry, but ultimately the decision making group was aligned as of January 2020 and I don't know if that's ever been the case since the change in ownership. This new setup within the Jets appears to be similar for the first time since (fill in the blank), so unlike previous groups this one has a chance.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I spend most of my time on this thread - its a small but very knowledgeable group of Jet fans that are way more open minded and respectful than most other Jet sites or even other threads Ive been on.....
I just dont get fans bashing other fans for opinions....who the heck knows if Wilson will be the next Mahomes or Ryan Leaf....all you can do is hope they finally have a good GM in place to see the talent and coaching staff to develop....if those 2 are in place then any of the QBs they decide to draft will be successful - I think that is way more of a factor than if Wilson has better skils/traits than Fields at this point....
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Who's the troll you've about had it with? I'll take a PM if you wish so that it doesn't see it and start in immediately as trolls are wont to do.Dr. Octopus said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
From an article poster in the Najhe Harris thread:
Getting him in Round 3/4 would be a nice get imo.
I like Michael Carter a lot. His 40 time wasn't ideal for his size but he looks much faster on the field so maybe he just doesn't run well out of track blocks.
Getting him in Round 3/4 would be a nice get imo.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
This is why I hated that JD left such a big hole at CB....I really wanted this draft to be all about surrounding the new QB with talent...something they didnt do with Sam.....the defense is solid as is - especially as its Saleh's strength...but the gaping hole at CB just cant be ignored so Im pretty sure they will select one out of the 1st 3 picks....Id much rather go IOL, RB, WR with the 1st 3 picks but dont think JD would wit that long....
NYRAGE
Footballguy
I'm not so sure about CB. I think they place value more in the pass rush than CB in this system. While it's possible that they go CB with one of their first three picks, I'm going to guess that they take a pass rusher before CB. I think they will grab one with their third round pick.
We might as well place our guesses.
First rounder (#2) - Wilson
Second first rounder (#23) - I think that o-line will be gone, so the value is at pass rusher, so one of the DEs. Or they could trade back and pick up another third rounder/4th rounder. If we drop back, then the pick might be o-line and edge rusher goes later.
Second rounder (#34)- O-line (guard/center). This is also a good spot to trade back after everyone looks at their draft board to see who has slipped out of the first round.
As it stands now:
In the third round, they go (#66) O-line and (#86) CB.
Fourth round (#107) - TE
5th round (#146) - RB
5th round (154) - WR
6th round (#186) - LB
6th round (#226) - LB
Once we trade back a couple of times, I think we'll gain an extra third or 4th rounder, and another 5th- 7th round pick. IF so, move the WR and first LB up a round. I'll pray that they use our last pick on kicker, but doubt it will happen.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I think those are realistic - I wouldnt be thrilled as I d rather use the 2d 1st rder on the offense but think you may be right....Id be up for a trade down from #23 to the end of the 1st if it brings in another 3rd and perhaps is a better spot for a RB.
rockaction
Footballguy
Nice thoughts.
One quibble, and a long one, so it seems like I'm being critical but I'm really just sharing: Don't draft a kicker unless you're so positive he'll be gone in the draft that you absolutely must use the pick on him. Kickers (not punters) are not only streaky, they're notoriously hard to project at the next level. And the scouting of them is terrible. What flies at previous levels doesn't translate to the pros, which makes it tough. The game is different. It used to be the hashes were different, and that changed the task immensely. It was like a different game once you hit the pros. Now it's that the guys are so big that they affect kicks in so many ways that the collegiate guys and their schemes really don't. So the truly great ones generally have come out of nowhere, really. Well, not nowhere, but they develop much differently than other college players.
Usually, collegiate accomplishment means nothing. It's the guys that truly have the leg drive, instant lift from impact, kickoff hang time, and accuracy (four differing skills) that can do it at the pro level, and those guys that can do it all are few and far between. The best way to procure a kicker is to really scour the amateur and failed professional ranks to find a guy whose game translates or has improved. The last great and universally hailed college kicker from a big program that was great in the pros was Janikowski. I know I'm dating myself, but if you look at kickers, I think you'll still find them often undrafted, often from smaller college programs that the scouts aren't watching. You need to bring guys in, have them practice for you, and then see if the proof is in the pudding. But the way big program collegiate special teams are run gives you barely an inkling about their pro prospects unless the kid's got an undeniably huge leg, like Tyler Bass of Buffalo.
TL;DR I'm a former kicker here who has been part way through the system as a walk-on and knows college head coaches know very little about special teams or kickers, and has also observed that what they think they do know is usually wrong. Don't waste the pick, even the seventh-rounder, on a kicker. Because usually that allows teams to think they've done their diligence, when they really haven't. Paying attention to everything and everyone in the kicking ranks (you know from the various camps they go to, the professional auditions they've had) and then paying the darn guy a little bit brings you much closer to having a good kicker than collegiate accomplishments and draft capital spent.
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NYRAGE
Footballguy
woah, who knew that it was such a topic dear to your heart. interesting.
Don't worry, I don't think JD values kickers at all based on the handful of bums that we've had. It doesn't appear that he would pay for one or spend a draft pick on one.
It's only been a couple of years, but it seems that JD is a value-based GM. He has his prices that he's willing to pay players in free agency and I think he's the same for drafting. Even my guesses above aren't what I want, but I think it's where need meets positional and player value...but i could be off.
rockaction
Footballguy
Near and dear, NY. Near and dear.
Yeah, I wouldn't even be upset if he drafted one, so long as the proper process of vetting that kicker is in place before the draft. You have to work kickers out to know. Usually, they're drafting on nothing more than a wing and a prayer when they draft a guy. Remember Tampa a few years ago with Aguayo in the second round? GM should have been fired on the spot. Nothing about the guy screamed "second round," especially given that he was a kicker, and that positional value is fairly low in the grand scheme of things. I still can't believe that pick. And I think kicking is uber valuable to a pro team and decides playoff berths in the regular season, like any other position. Due diligence should be done at the position. But, in getting to your next point...
That's a really good observation. I think he does consider positional value, which I love. The thing that gives me the most pause about JD? James Morgan in the fourth round. I want to know what went into that thought process. That really makes me believe that something is potentially fundamentally flawed. Free passes for bad picks are one thing. Everybody makes them. But that one was inexplicable. Let's hope he was drunk or something when he phoned that pick in. One can always quit drinking, after all.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Mookie
Footballguy
Great stuff. One of my closest friends has a son who walked on at a Pac 12 school as an all-state kicker. It's his 3rd year and he has wavered between 2nd and 4th on the depth chart. You are absolutely correct that all of the coaches, including the ST coach, know very little about kicking and just want to see results (touchbacks and don't miss PATs or FGs).
And there is no way we should draft a kicker for the reasons you expressed and also because we have so many holes to fill. It's a wasted draft pick, but this team has demonstrated excellence in wasting draft picks in the past, so we could likely see the next Mike Nugent in Green and white.
rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
That's awesome. Being all-state and Pac 12 walk-on is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. I wish I had a collegiate career as accomplished. I never really took off, so to speak, and quit to go play club hockey instead of fighting for position on the depth chart at a 1-AA school where the coaches knew, like you noted, next to nothing about special teams or the kicking game. So that's truly great for him and must be quite the experience to be part of a ballyhooed program. He must be thrilled at the opportunity to be around that atmosphere even if he's a little bittersweet about the coaching. I can totally relate, aside from the pomp and circumstance (and the girls) of the Pac 12.
And I think you're right. We have so many holes that it seems best to take that lottery ticket and turn it into the cashier in hopes of it cashing out. Maybe we can forge it or something?
I dunno. lol. Let's see what they do. Sam Ficken does not seem to be the answer, but we've done near spent half a page of me rambling about kickers, so...
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Well, I did say our last pick which is a compensatory 6th rounder which is a low as you can get in the 6th round (or if we get a 7th rounder in a trade). Personally, I don't mind using 6th and 7th round picks on specialists. For the most part, not too many of 6th-7th rounders amount to much (yeah, I know, Brady).Near and dear, NY. Near and dear.
Yeah, I wouldn't even be upset if he drafted one, so long as the proper process of vetting that kicker is in place before the draft. You have to work kickers out to know. Usually, they're drafting on nothing more than a wing and a prayer when they draft a guy. Remember Tampa a few years ago with Aguayo in the second round? GM should have been fired on the spot. Nothing about the guy screamed "second round," especially given that he was a kicker, and that positional value is fairly low in the grand scheme of things. I still can't believe that pick. And I think kicking is uber valuable to a pro team and decides playoff berths in the regular season, like any other position. Due diligence should be done at the position. But, in getting to your next point...
That's a really good observation. I think he does consider positional value, which I love. The thing that gives me the most pause about JD? James Morgan in the fourth round. I want to know what went into that thought process. That really makes me believe that something is potentially fundamentally flawed. Free passes for bad picks are one thing. Everybody makes them. But that one was inexplicable. Let's hope he was drunk or something when he phoned that pick in. One can always quit drinking, after all.
I would hope that Boyer has some scouting on special teams. I thought Mann was a great pick last year, but he was less than special.
I think the Morgan pick was due to them having such crappy back-ups in the past and wanting to groom a quality guy for the long term. What cannot be explained is why he didn't get even a snap at the end of the season unless he was just that bad. Rather than him being drunk, let's just blame it on Gase somehow.
rockaction
Footballguy
Awful. But I'd seen him at Ohio State and thought he was a rare bird for college kickers. That's how hard it is to project. Even someone like me, who can look at a kicker for a bit and give you a pretty good answer about whether he'll be effective, failed at assessing Nugent. That it cost them a second-rounder should have gotten the GM sued for malpractice.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sounds good to me.
Yeah, I'm not going to get apoplectic if they use the pick on a specialist. I just think they ought to bring the guys in before doing that. Why not? What have you got to lose by getting about four or five guys in a kicking competition before the draft, so long as you're not breaking the rules (I do not know what those rules are)? Because usually, you draft a kicker and he's yours for at least a year, if not two. And they struggle when they hit the pros. Even Bass -- before he started pumping fifty yarders last year and who by all accounts ended the year on a high note -- had a case of the yips and wide righties that almost cost him his job around the quarter mark of the season and did cost Buffalo at least one game. So that's the thing. Drafting almost always involves growing pains with the kicker in some form. Look at Carlson from the Raiders. He was almost perfect for them last year. The year before? Cut by the Vikings as a fifth-round (!) draft pick and scooped up by the Raiders. Dude just had the yips at first and was getting adjusted to the pro game.
Anyway, enough out of me. Jeez.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
He has had a long career at least despite some early trials and tribulations.
Don't forget that we traded a first round pick for that second rounder and hall of famer Doug Jolley.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, Nugent has bounced around, especially in the AFC North. I think both the Browns and Cinci have had him. I would still get those old feelings about how he should be great when hearing his name, but watching him was like, this is what they spent that pick on?
And, oh. Doug Jolley. Thanks for the memory. I'd sort of forgotten about that whole deal.
rockaction
Footballguy
Scratch that. Nugent only played for the Bengals. On the whole, given that was the bulk of his career, he had below-average stats for them.
His first year with the Jets was an undeniable dud. His second year, he was at 89% with a long of like 54. Sounds like he was on his way to a long career with them until he went 80% the next year, which isn't too, too bad, but not second round good.
Not too shabby, though. Missed two extra points with them in three years. Pretty decent, not outstanding or even very good, really. Who knows how those XPs were missed, though.
Interesting rabbit hole to go down, his career. If you told me last night that I would go see the eye doctor today in one of the most yawningly boring visits while researching Mike Nugent's career, I might not have woken up.
His first year with the Jets was an undeniable dud. His second year, he was at 89% with a long of like 54. Sounds like he was on his way to a long career with them until he went 80% the next year, which isn't too, too bad, but not second round good.
Not too shabby, though. Missed two extra points with them in three years. Pretty decent, not outstanding or even very good, really. Who knows how those XPs were missed, though.
Interesting rabbit hole to go down, his career. If you told me last night that I would go see the eye doctor today in one of the most yawningly boring visits while researching Mike Nugent's career, I might not have woken up.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Yup. I had trouble typing that those were "good" stats. Unless we know how he was technically charged with the miss, that's about league average for makes. You're kicking twenty yarders. That's automatic.
Now you get guys missing three or four a year and they're not getting cut. That would have got yourself on a plane back home in the days of yore. Harrison Butker, as Jim Nantz can attest to (he intones that Butker is the greatest kicker ever whenever he's calling games with Romo) missed a bunch this year. He missed six of them in 54 attempts. No bueno, Harrison. But that's actually a lot of attempts. I wonder what league-average is for a 33 yard field goal. I don't think 89% from that distance is league average, but who knows?
rockaction
Footballguy
mods pls move to kicker thread tia
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Kicker central in this thread - I kicked for a division 3 college team a lifetime ago.....one of the few barefoot kickers. If I tried to do it today Id shatter my foot....
You need to have certain physical gifts to kick but most of it is mental....if missing or the yips get in your head its over....its so rare to find a consistent kicker....the wheels can come off at any time.
I am old enough to remember how good Pat Leahy was and he even missed in a critical spot to get to the AFCCG in that marathon vs Cleveland....my favorite recent kicker was John Hall...dude was tough and made some good kicks.
I dont like the rotation they've had...they need to widen the search and find someone better than the last few since Myers....drafting kickers usually doesnt pay off tho....find better retreads.
You need to have certain physical gifts to kick but most of it is mental....if missing or the yips get in your head its over....its so rare to find a consistent kicker....the wheels can come off at any time.
I am old enough to remember how good Pat Leahy was and he even missed in a critical spot to get to the AFCCG in that marathon vs Cleveland....my favorite recent kicker was John Hall...dude was tough and made some good kicks.
I dont like the rotation they've had...they need to widen the search and find someone better than the last few since Myers....drafting kickers usually doesnt pay off tho....find better retreads.
rockaction
Footballguy
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Just for you because I know how much you love kicking, I downloaded the stats. It's 93% for extra points. It's also 93% for fgs from 30-39 yards. Actually slightly higher for the fgs even though the distance is longer, but it's pretty negligible. Maybe there is tinge of loss of concentration after a touchdown.
Our golden duo was 21 of 28 for 75% at xps. Not good.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Seems like Najee isn't the right fit for the Shanahan scheme. Don't they want a guy to make one cut and go? To me it seems like Najee is a much more patient runner who likes to pick and choose, use his quick feet and not just charge full speed through the line.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Thanks, bud. Not so good on the XP tip, then. 93% is the golden number. Where'd you get these stats? I'd be interested to look at league averages for 40+ and 50+, though 40-49 has got be some sort of sliding scale downward, one would think. 40-45 should be different than 45-49.
Jets really weren't very good at anything last year, were they?
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