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2023 New York Jets: Bye Bye (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Octopus
- Start date
TLEF316
Footballguy
Had a feeling they'd sign Coleman eventually, but again.....I question the value here (compared to what they could have had)
You want to tell me that Lindsay wasn't a scheme fit? I dont know enough about football to argue otherwise. But he's clearly a superior player to Coleman (who has NEVER carried the full load and only cost an extra million.
If they draft someone promising in April, pushing Coleman to a backup role....ok. But if they seriously intend for him to be the main guy in a committee, I just don't get it.
You want to tell me that Lindsay wasn't a scheme fit? I dont know enough about football to argue otherwise. But he's clearly a superior player to Coleman (who has NEVER carried the full load and only cost an extra million.
If they draft someone promising in April, pushing Coleman to a backup role....ok. But if they seriously intend for him to be the main guy in a committee, I just don't get it.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't really like the Coleman signing but to say it surprises me would be a lie. I'd say that using the tea leaves at our disposal (and they are fallible) we had come to consensus -- or had sort of a feeling -- that they'd go the cheap way at running back and invest neither draft nor monetary capital in one. Or at least it seemed to be that way. Perhaps people were holding out hope for a Day 1 guy or high-priced free agent, but I highly doubted that. Check out Gainwell, Hubbard, Jefferson as scheme fits on Days 2 and 3.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yep. Or that the Jets hold all the cards right now because that wasn't considered enough of a haul. I'm hoping QB. We'll see.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
GM's tend to know whats going on and they talk. Could definitely see Saleh giving Shanny a courtesy call that they aren’t taking Wilson. Could also see Douglas telling Howie they aren't taking Wilson.
If word got out on that, it makes sense why Philly was trying to move to 3 for Wilson as reported, and why SF offered up so much, and why 2 other teams were also calling about the 3rd pick and aggressively going after it.
Could mean nothing, but I think there's a good chance that the Jets are locked into Fields.
Deamon
Footballguy
How is it maximizing the value if you're locked into fields and have no reason to trade out of that spot? These guys chat more than you'd think to each other.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Well yeah....at the end of the day....if you think Justin Fields is the 2nd best QB in the draft (assuming everyone but Chris Simms still believes that Trevor Lawrence in the first) you take him. You put your chips in the middle and you bet your career on it. Obviously in a perfect world, you'd trade down as low as you can to acquire more assets and still get him, but the world aint perfect. If you believe Fields is the guy...you dont screw around. You take him and you bet your career on him. And yeah, at that point, it doesn't matter what you tell other people.
I've made it no secret that I'm not a huge Wilson believer. I'm not going to pretend that I'm some QB expert but he just scares me. Obviously he put on an impressive display today....in shorts....with nobody out there playing defense. But I just worry that while everyone looks for "the next Patrick Mahomes"...this kid might just be fools gold. He apparently has this insane arm talent. Where was it 2 years ago? (when he threw a whopping 11 TD's and 9 picks)
I'm sure he's improved some (not unreasonable for a 20 year old) but I have a hunch that this season was kinda the perfect storm for BYU. They always have older, more mature players (physically and emotionally) and I think they were uniquely equipped to play through the pandemic due to that maturity. (especially against a bunch of small time programs that didn't have the resources, expertise or motivation to play to their full potential during a tough time)
Who the heck knows? Maybe 3 weeks from now, Atlanta comes to the table with a great offer, comes up and gets Wilson and the Jets end up with Fields anyway? (if that's indeed who they want)
rockaction
Footballguy
Nobody knows and anybody telling you they do is selling you fool's gold or trying to scare you. The best NFL guys on Twitter have the Jets on Wilson and the 49ers on Jones or Lance. So Deamon isn't reading the tea leaves the experts are looking at. I'll believe the name when we hear said name announced in late April.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Man, I got worried last night hearing Waldman, Bloom, and Lammey talking about how down they were on Wilson. They were basically calling him a poor man's Baker Mayfield (well they never said that, but they were hinting at it). Maybe they were calling him this year's version of Baker Mayfield. That's worrisome. Whatever one thinks of Waldman's level of expertise, he does watch more film and is more credentialed, generally better, and more dedicated than I am.
But in watching Waldman and Bloom, they seem to think that Mayfield is actually an inaccurate pro passer because he's not hitting receivers in stride, missing throws in subtle ways, etc. One wonders what they think of Wilson's deep ball accuracy and what he did today against his body. Even Trevor Lawrence chimed in with a "SHEESH" on Twitter. At some point, your eyes aren't lying and just because he takes chances and throws into safety coverage (one of their main complaints) doesn't make the criticism and comparison of him to Mayfield analogous.
As for TLEF's comment (welcome back), I'm worried about Wilson, too. But not in the way I know Darnold stinks right now (Will he be good one day? Maybe, but the statistical odds are highly stacked against it) and can't lead this team anywhere as it stands after free agency. Wilson is only twenty. That might help assuage guys like TLEF that are worried about him coming out of nowhere. There are huge leaps in physical maturity and ability from eighteen to twenty. Look at his pressers freshman year. The kid has nary a whisker on him. Personally, and this is rambling a bit, I hit puberty really late. Like fifteen bordering on sixteen. I became a radically different athlete, changing body types dramatically until twenty-three. If he physically developed late (and by all accounts he did) then that's also something to consider in his favor.
Personally, I think Lawrence is easily the best in the draft. But we've got a chance to get this guy who should make your eyes literally pop out at the second option, and it's an option that might be pretty good, a la San Diego's Herbert to Cinci's Burrow. Let's hope he's all that he's cracked up to be. Flag planted. I hope we take him.
But in watching Waldman and Bloom, they seem to think that Mayfield is actually an inaccurate pro passer because he's not hitting receivers in stride, missing throws in subtle ways, etc. One wonders what they think of Wilson's deep ball accuracy and what he did today against his body. Even Trevor Lawrence chimed in with a "SHEESH" on Twitter. At some point, your eyes aren't lying and just because he takes chances and throws into safety coverage (one of their main complaints) doesn't make the criticism and comparison of him to Mayfield analogous.
As for TLEF's comment (welcome back), I'm worried about Wilson, too. But not in the way I know Darnold stinks right now (Will he be good one day? Maybe, but the statistical odds are highly stacked against it) and can't lead this team anywhere as it stands after free agency. Wilson is only twenty. That might help assuage guys like TLEF that are worried about him coming out of nowhere. There are huge leaps in physical maturity and ability from eighteen to twenty. Look at his pressers freshman year. The kid has nary a whisker on him. Personally, and this is rambling a bit, I hit puberty really late. Like fifteen bordering on sixteen. I became a radically different athlete, changing body types dramatically until twenty-three. If he physically developed late (and by all accounts he did) then that's also something to consider in his favor.
Personally, I think Lawrence is easily the best in the draft. But we've got a chance to get this guy who should make your eyes literally pop out at the second option, and it's an option that might be pretty good, a la San Diego's Herbert to Cinci's Burrow. Let's hope he's all that he's cracked up to be. Flag planted. I hope we take him.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
All reports locally is that Wilson is their guy.Deamon said:
babydemon90
Footballguy
I think the report was that the Eagles wanted to move to #3 if they could get Wilson there... But Jets told them Wilson would NOT be there, so they traded back instead. Pretty sure Jets taking Wilson. Not sure if SF is taking Fields or Lance tho...
RC94
Footballguy
Why would the Jets tell anyone who they're taking, especially anyone trying to do a deal that would potentially benefit the Dolphins? The Jets get nothing out of telling anyone who they're taking. That story makes no sense. Douglass is professional enough where I doubt he would show everyone his hand.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
That, and everything you hear before the draft is potentially misdirection including what I said about what they’re saying about Wilson.
babydemon90
Footballguy
GM's talk and have a professional relationship - in a scenario like this where there's no need to hide the cards, I'd be shocked if they didn't. You don't think SF would trade up to #3 this far in advance without knowing who'd they get?
RC94
Footballguy
I know they talk, but it makes no sense for someone in charge of a multi-billion dollar organization to give away key information. Who knows who SF is targeting. Maybe there's a couple of players they like and wanted to make a move now to ensure they get one of them. Otherwise I thought it was strange timing for SF to make a move like that since there's so much time until the draft. Besides, have the Jets done their due diligence on everyone at this point, with still a month until the draft? I find it hard to believe they have made a final decision without doing all of the necessary due diligence and there's too much work to do for them to be finished at this point in time.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yes. They may be leaning one way right now but they can’t be totally done with the process. The only conversations Douglas had with SF involved him turning down that offer first, which maybe tips their hand that they are going QB but doesn’t lock it in.
There is ZERO chance Douglas told SF who they were taking or no way Saleh leaked it out even if he loved his time there.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
San Francisco obviously likes 2 QBs (leaving Lawrence out of course) and think they can make either work - Jets did the same thing when they traded up for 1.03 - why in the world would Douglas let SF know or even the Eagles know their plans this far in advance? I mean I’m sure Douglas appreciates Roseman gave him an opportunity but he’s not going to jeopardize his current role for the sake of loyalty.
rockaction
Footballguy
No chance they told SF who they were taking. They probably said, "We're set at number two for that price." That would have been a haul for the second, and they didn't take it. Can't imagine they're not taking a QB, though I've been wrong before.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Only better deal would be if carolina matched it so they stay in top 8...but looks like they are going qb for sure....no shot they told anyone who that is tho...sam may be next domino to fall...hoping for at least a 3rd with escaltors or just keep him
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Saw this early today . . .
Prior to the 16-game season era, Joe Namath was the only QB in pro football history to throw for 4,000 yards in a season. At the conclusion of the 16-game season era, the Chicago Bears and... the New York Jets were the only teams to not have a 4,000-yard passer (from 1978 to 2020).
Prior to the 16-game season era, Joe Namath was the only QB in pro football history to throw for 4,000 yards in a season. At the conclusion of the 16-game season era, the Chicago Bears and... the New York Jets were the only teams to not have a 4,000-yard passer (from 1978 to 2020).
rockaction
Footballguy
Which is why we shouldn't draft a QB in the first round, of course. We should draft another safety to replace Jamal Adams.
TLEF316
Footballguy
On the record....I officially think Fields is better than Wilson. At the very least, I think he's MUCH safer.
I think he can make all the throws. (to me, their pro day workouts dont show much difference in arm talent) Faster, much better frame, a longer track record of success and he's far tougher and more battle tested.
Maybe Wilson is Mahomes-lite and I look like an idiot a year from now, but this is my stance and I'm sticking to it.
I think he can make all the throws. (to me, their pro day workouts dont show much difference in arm talent) Faster, much better frame, a longer track record of success and he's far tougher and more battle tested.
Maybe Wilson is Mahomes-lite and I look like an idiot a year from now, but this is my stance and I'm sticking to it.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm not good at predicting which college QBs will be able to take the next step so I'll be hopeful that whichever they pick becomes a franchise QB. I lean towards Wilson because I think he has the better arm talent and decision making but it would be fun to finally have a QB that can make plays with his legs.
I suppose with the current o-line, Fields may be the better bet, but I'm still hoping Douglas will do more to build the line up before, during and after the draft.
rockaction
Footballguy
Fields was mighty impressive, but pro days don't mean squat. What's more impressive is this article about him by Doug Farrar of USA Today. Farrar's one of the best in the business (the media landscape) at sussing out talent and writing intelligently about football.
https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2021/03/30/justin-fields-2021-nfl-draft-processing-speed/
https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2021/03/30/justin-fields-2021-nfl-draft-processing-speed/
TLEF316
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm not saying the pro day is the thing that puts me over the edge. But I feel like he was equal to Wilson, who everyone has been gushing over.
And while I'm not trying to turn this into a racial conversation, I absolutely still think there is some bias with black QB's. "Processing Speed" might be code for something else with CERTAIN people (not all, but some) and I think its one of those things that snowballs and drives the narrative. I'm honestly not sure how else you explain Mitch Trubisky being drafted ahead of Deshaun Watson (current circumstances not withstanding....)
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rockaction
Footballguy
I agree, but I also think comparing Lance to someone like Jameis Winston is worse than talking about processing speed. That's when you know they're seeing race. But in regard to processing speed, by all accounts, Fields holds the ball an awfully long time and seems to lock on, which can only lead to that being a critique of him. So a fair rebuttal that doesn't implicate someone's motive for saying that is the playbook one that Farrar gives. Because I'll admit, I watched a bunch of Fields since the Clemson game, and he seems to do the whole one read/lock thing. But again, if it's playbook related, I'm fine with it.
I'd personally rather have Wilson, though Farrar's article gives me great pause. Wilson's got the second-best QBR under pressure according to ESPN, and the second-best QBR in blitz situations. I'd rather have a guy that can create aerial plays under pressure than a guy that needs a clean pocket to do so. But that's not so determinative of what I'd like to see. What I really don't want is Darnold back under center.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Gonna have to wait a year for most of the payoff, but I'm ok with that. They're not winning this year anyway.
IMO, this is phenomenal compensation. I'm skeptical Wilson is the answer, but I'm 90% sure Sam is not.
Great trade.
Plus if Sam has to start for them, there's a good chance that 2nd rounder COULD be pretty high.
IMO, this is phenomenal compensation. I'm skeptical Wilson is the answer, but I'm 90% sure Sam is not.
Great trade.
Plus if Sam has to start for them, there's a good chance that 2nd rounder COULD be pretty high.
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Deamon
Footballguy
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Bittersweet - return was reasonable under the circumstances.....completely understand why JD did it for many reasons.....still sad...Sam was to be the chosen one and the Jets ruined him. Another victim of Chris Johnson, Adam Gase and Mac's ineptness....Sam will have coaching and weapons in Carolina that he could only dream of with likely another stud added in the draft...if he doesnt take a huge leap next year he is the bust everyone says he is....Ill be rooting for the kid...he got a raw deal and was nothing but classy....
As for Wilson - JD has put his stake in the ground...its his team and QB now...he owns their record next yr and on....he gets 1 yr to develop the kid and then its playoffs or bust with all this capital.....Im at least confident they learned from Sams failure and will do better to help Wilson succeed. .
As for Wilson - JD has put his stake in the ground...its his team and QB now...he owns their record next yr and on....he gets 1 yr to develop the kid and then its playoffs or bust with all this capital.....Im at least confident they learned from Sams failure and will do better to help Wilson succeed. .
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Under the circumstances, it was a great return for Sam.
Hopefully he helps make that second an early one.
Hopefully he helps make that second an early one.
I think you guys are underestimating the Panthers a bit for this coming year. Regardless of how you feel about Sam as a franchise guy, he will be an upgrade over Bridgewater. I live in Charlotte, and trust me it grew tiring watching DJ Moore flash wide open across the screen countless times only for Teddy to throw the ball 3 yards or into the dirt. Sam may throw a pick in the process, but at least he'll try to get it there. But Carolina lost a lot of close games last season, too. They were without CMC. The defense is young, but getting much better. Their pass rush is ferocious. The Saints just lost Drew Brees, and Atlanta is in a straight rebuild. I'm not predicting a division win or anything, I'm just saying that 5-11 record from last year is deceptive IMO.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I usually dont like players that leave to do well....but Sam is different.....I have a feeling hes just not that good as Flacco looked better in the starts he had....but you cant ignore the awful coaching and lack of weapons....at least he is going to a place that has both so they should find out once and for all....I think Sam can be a decent QB but he makes way too many mistakes to be a top starter....If Carolina adds a nice piece like Pitts or one of the stud OTs that O should really be solid
rockaction
Footballguy
Well, can't complain about what's around him now. CMC, D.J. Moore, Robby A. Let's see how often he misses Robby Anderson wide open in Carolina. He's set up to have success, I hope that he finds it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
So Fields or Wilson? I admit both still scare me a little - but I guess that just comes with the territory of expecting to be disappointed by this team.
I think most are on-board that Sam needed to go and that the chances of him completely turning it around are slim, but it is bittersweet that he never really got a fair chance here. The Jets really messed that up with the Mac and especially Gase hires.
I like what Douglas is doing here but I'm a bit disappointed he really hasn't done much with the o-line and will now need to load up in the draft instead of just being able to grab BPA.
A shut down corner could make the defense borderline elite with the improvements to the D-Line/pass rush and the return of Mosely this season. I think they may need to use the Seattle first if a CB falls but most of the rest of the draft needs to focus on the offense.
I think most are on-board that Sam needed to go and that the chances of him completely turning it around are slim, but it is bittersweet that he never really got a fair chance here. The Jets really messed that up with the Mac and especially Gase hires.
I like what Douglas is doing here but I'm a bit disappointed he really hasn't done much with the o-line and will now need to load up in the draft instead of just being able to grab BPA.
A shut down corner could make the defense borderline elite with the improvements to the D-Line/pass rush and the return of Mosely this season. I think they may need to use the Seattle first if a CB falls but most of the rest of the draft needs to focus on the offense.
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NYRAGE
Footballguy
Are you asking who we prefer or is there still any doubt on who we are picking? I think it's pretty clear that we're taking Wilson. We've been linked to him for months. Then Steve Young said it (he's got ties to BYU, the Wilson family, SF, and the ex SF coaches on the Jets). JD basically confirmed it yesterday without explicitly saying it.
I would be ok with either. Frankly, I would have taken any of the top 5 over Darnold. I'm listening to Kiper's latest podcast from today where he says he would take Darnold over any QB in this draft not named Lawrence. Ok. That says it all about Kiper.
Anyway, I have a feeling that Fields will be a star if drafted by the right team.
Our track record of developing QBs is frightening, but let's hope we finally have the right coaches for Wilson. Now we have to do a way better job of surrounding the QB with talent.
As far as the defense goes, I can't believe that we haven't signed a CB yet. Sherman and Nelson are still out there. Poole, too.We can use another LB, too.
Anyway, what are we doing with the #23 pick?
Value-wise, we might miss out on o-line. That might be a spot for CB, but since we play a zone d, we can wait for a lower round CB. We might out on the top WRs, too at 23. I wouldn't mind dropping down to the end of the first or top of the second and picking up another second round pick in the process.
We definitely need a guard. Maybe a center, too. Hopefully 2 of our next 3 picks are o-line. I have a feeling that JD will still go with a balanced draft, defense mixed in with offense. We'll see. I can see a RB in the 4th round plus another mid-round WR and/or TE.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I've been watching the ESPN morning shows this week for the first time in months and I was shocked to see the number of their on-air guys that think the Jets made a mistake trading away Darnold and not building around him. Do they watch games or just fall hook line and sinker into the "Gase Effect" blindly? As much as Carolina is a great landing spot for him, I'd be shocked if he even rises to an slightly above average QB in Carolina.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
A lot of mocks have the Jets going RB with pick 23. I'm not buying that. I think CB is the target there depending on one falling to that slot. OG has to be targeted at some point for sure.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Tannehill was already a better QB than Darnold. Tannehill then moved in a system with a dominant run game where he didn't have to throw much. Plus he had an upcoming dominant WR (Brown), a good second WR in Davis, and a pretty decent TE or two. Tannehill seems like a really good game manager at this point.
I have no doubt that Darnold will improve under a coordinator/coach like Brady plus he has outstanding weapons like Moore and McCaffrey. Basically he might become an average QB if you give him great weapons and a great o-line. He's certainly not making anyone around him any better. Sam is terrible at RB screens/passes, so that negates some of the CMC advantage though.Those passes have a 50-50 chance of completion to a LB or Defensive End.
What's his ceiling? An average QB at best? I think he still ends up in the bottom third of QBs, but maybe at the top of the bottom third instead of dead last. Unless of course Carolina can put a implant into Sam's head to change all of his terrible decisions and poor reading of the defense.
It's still worth a shot for Carolina. They didn't give up all that much. It's a good move for Sam. He gets a fresh start with good coaches and players around him. It's a good move for Jets to get rid of that bum that couldn't throw for more than 200 yards, threw crucial INTs, and was hurt too often. Enough about Sam though.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Yeah, I'll say the same thing I said way back during the season. JD is not the type of guy that believes in spending good draft capital on a RB. Add in SF's coaches who also didn't draft RBs high. We can certainly use a top guy, but I see us taking one somewhere between the third and 5th round.
JD is certainly treating the CB position (in FA) as a guy that knows he can add 1 (or 2) in the draft. Again though, in the SF system, it wasn't necessary to get a top man to man cover guy since they use a zone system. It doesn't have to be a first round pick. Part of me thinks that JD might go with a defensive end in that spot. The d-line pass rush is really important in our new scheme.
RC94
Footballguy
There should be good value at CB, o-line and probably the #1 RB at 23. I would not trade down unless it's to later in the 1st because I would want the late 1st round 5th year option (there's a significant difference in cost between the 5th year option for a top 10 pick and others in the 1st). I think taking a RB in the top 10 is bad value and poor strategic planning (see Barkley with the NYG), but taking the top RB in the late 1st can be good value. You get to fill a position of need with an impact player and the cost is reasonable, even for a RB.
I really can't wait for the draft. Both NY teams have a lot at stake, but the NYJ are the much more interesting team at this point.
I really can't wait for the draft. Both NY teams have a lot at stake, but the NYJ are the much more interesting team at this point.
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