2023 New York Jets: Bye Bye (9 Viewers)

Dr. Octopus said:

I've been watching the ESPN morning shows this week for the first time in months and I was shocked to see the number of their on-air guys that think the Jets made a mistake trading away Darnold and not building around him. Do they watch games or just fall hook line and sinker into the "Gase Effect" blindly? As much as Carolina is a great landing spot for him, I'd be shocked if he even rises to an slightly above average QB in Carolina.

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This narrative is what I/you/many of us have harped on for quite a while now.  It's part of the reason I jumped into the Darnold thread - not to look like the jilted Jets fan sending ill will, but to explain to people that haven't watched him, but just blindly follow the media (hmm I wonder how often THAT happens) that they are just echo chambering stuff that isn't true.  All of us in here know we suck as an organization, and our last decade of drafting has been abysmal - but we also know enough about football to call a spade a spade, at least as far as Sam's time in this organization is concerned.

NYRAGE said:

Tannehill was already a better QB than Darnold.  Tannehill then moved in a system with a dominant run game where he didn't have to throw much. Plus he had an upcoming dominant WR (Brown), a good second WR in Davis, and a pretty decent TE or two. Tannehill seems like a really good game manager at this point.

I have no doubt that Darnold will improve under a coordinator/coach like Brady plus he has outstanding weapons like Moore and McCaffrey. Basically he might become an average QB if you give him great weapons and a great o-line. He's certainly not making anyone around him any better. Sam is terrible at RB screens/passes, so that negates some of the CMC advantage though.Those passes have a 50-50 chance of completion to a LB or Defensive End.

What's his ceiling? An average QB at best? I think he still ends up in the bottom third of QBs, but maybe at the top of the bottom third instead of dead last. Unless of course Carolina can put a implant into Sam's head to change all of his terrible decisions and poor reading of the defense.

It's still worth a shot for Carolina. They didn't give up all that much.  It's a good move for Sam. He gets a fresh start with good coaches and players around him. It's a good move for Jets to get rid of that bum that couldn't throw for more than 200 yards, threw crucial INTs, and was hurt too often. Enough about Sam though.

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Side note 1:  you may know of him already, but youve got to check out Hate5six on youtube, tons of old shows
https://www.youtube.com/user/hate5six/videos

Side note 2: Fox for Norris

Yeah, I LOVE the idea of adding an elite RB. I just dont want to pay a first rounder for it.

Even if you hit on an absolute stud, you still have to pay him after like 3-4 years of production. And that point, he's already past his prime and you run the risk of him breaking down at like 27-28 years old and being an albatross.

Of the 20 most productive fantasy backs from this past year, only Jacobs, Elliot and Gordon were drafted in the top half of the first round.  Jacobs is obviously on a rookie deal, Zeke already APPEARS to be showing signs of decline and Gordon's first team decided he wasn't worth the 2nd contract.

Of the top 20...

3 first rounders (noted above)

6 2nd rounders (all with their original teams)

6 rd rounders (3 with their original teams)

2 4th rounders (all orignal teams)

1 5th rounder (Aaron Jones)

1 7th rounder (carson)

1 undrafted (Robinson)

You want to tell me we can have Etienne or Harris at 34? I'm on board. But not at 23.

TLEF316 said:

Yeah, I LOVE the idea of adding an elite RB. I just dont want to pay a first rounder for it.

Even if you hit on an absolute stud, you still have to pay him after like 3-4 years of production. And that point, he's already past his prime and you run the risk of him breaking down at like 27-28 years old and being an albatross.

Of the 20 most productive fantasy backs from this past year, only Jacobs, Elliot and Gordon were drafted in the top half of the first round.  Jacobs is obviously on a rookie deal, Zeke already APPEARS to be showing signs of decline and Gordon's first team decided he wasn't worth the 2nd contract.

Of the top 20...

3 first rounders (noted above)

6 2nd rounders (all with their original teams)

6 rd rounders (3 with their original teams)

2 4th rounders (all orignal teams)

1 5th rounder (Aaron Jones)

1 7th rounder (carson)

1 undrafted (Robinson)

You want to tell me we can have Etienne or Harris at 34? I'm on board. But not at 23.

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you can for sure get a great rb at 34.  it wont be harris though

They could take a rb but with so many needs that seems like a luxury 

need2know said:

you can for sure get a great rb at 34.  it wont be harris though

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I tend to agree with you, but I looked at several mocks this afternoon (Jeremiah, CBS, Walter football) and none of them have Harris going in the first.

I think SOMEONE takes him, but its not impossible.  If talents like Dalvin Cook, Nick Chubb and Jonathan Taylor can slip out of the first rounds in recent years, I dont see why Harris couldn't either. Most mocks have a lot of guys are much more valuable positions (CB, OL and edge in particular) making up most of the late first.  If that all happens and a few playoff teams have other needs, it could happen.

TLEF316 said:

I tend to agree with you, but I looked at several mocks this afternoon (Jeremiah, CBS, Walter football) and none of them have Harris going in the first.

I think SOMEONE takes him, but its not impossible.  If talents like Dalvin Cook, Nick Chubb and Jonathan Taylor can slip out of the first rounds in recent years, I dont see why Harris couldn't either. Most mocks have a lot of guys are much more valuable positions (CB, OL and edge in particular) making up most of the late first.  If that all happens and a few playoff teams have other needs, it could happen.

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Yeah Harris is better than those guys.  Guess we will see

I don't think the Jets really will want Harris. The SF school of rushing is that wide zone blocking scheme where the guys have to be fast to the edge and one cut runners. That's not really Harris's strength. Etienne is best suited for that.

We can expect to see an attempt to recreate this:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2020/film-room-shanahan-run-game

Money quote:

"However, the 49ers backfield is a track team and all of their blockers excel in space"

Free agent QB Brian Hoyer will visit the Jets on Thursday. 

Hoyer would be a weak backup option to whomever the Jets take at No. 2 — all signs point toward BYU's Zach Wilson — but his signing would be more about the locker room than anything else. Hoyer appeared on fumes during his limited 2020 action for the Patriots. Even if they like what Hoyer brings with a clipboard, the Jets should probably think bigger. 

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Decent stop gap backup QB. At this point, there isn't much out there as Alex Smith is still holding out for a starting gig.

I also would like to see a day 2 pick spent on a top RB....I think a big time RB would really take the pressure off a rookie QB,,,,As pointed out that wasnt necessary in the SF system but they have already shown a bit of new identity by not going after a lot of SF players.  I understand value and wouldnt advocate it in the 1st rd but I would like to see it in the 2d or 3rd

Hoyer would be a fine vet backup - im not sure Smith would want to risk his health behind the Jets OL

Going into the draft with gaping holes at RB, OL, CB and pass rush isnt ideal....I wouldnt be shocked if the value is there on a different position like LB that JD goes for it and foregoes need....I think he is looking at it as BPA 1st as he has a 2 full drafts to get the right players for those spots...I could see him grabbing 2 of the need positions and grabbing some FAs off the scrap heap to hold the fort until 2022.  After 2022 offseason they shouldl be ready to compete.  

Kiddnets said:

Going into the draft with gaping holes at RB, OL, CB and pass rush isnt ideal....

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I'm not saying adding more pass rush wouldn't be a good thing but the additions of Carl Lawson and Vinny Curry (With Q inside) and Jarrad Davis at LB, closed the gaping  hole a little.

Dr. Octopus said:

I'm not saying adding more pass rush wouldn't be a good thing but the additions of Carl Lawson and Vinny Curry (With Q inside) and Jarrad Davis at LB, closed the gaping  hole a little.

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true -its not as glaring a need as the others but I do think they really want a younger bookend for Lawson....

Just reading back to the year 2018 in this thread because I made the mistake of clicking the first page. God, it's so sad how optimistic we were. We're going to get stomped with a boot again, aren't we? 

ETN 2.2 is maybe interesting. Don’t use a 1st on a rb. Too many holes. 

IHEARTFF said:

ETN 2.2 is maybe interesting. Don’t use a 1st on a rb. Too many holes. 

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Agreed. And ETN isn't necessarily the all-around and in between the tackles runner that they need. If there were any sixth-round burners I could think of off the top of my head that would fit that system, that would be the way to go. As it is, the only RBs that really tested well are going first or second round, besides maybe Elijah Mitchell, who might slip and was a workout warrior from a small school. 

rockaction said:

Agreed. And ETN isn't necessarily the all-around and in-between the tackles runner that they need. If there were any sixth-round burners I could think of off the top of my head that would fit that system, that would be the way to go. As it is, the only RBs that really tested well are going first or second round, besides maybe Elijah Mitchell, who might slip and was a workout warrior from a small school. 

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Yeah Mitchell in the 3rd or 4th would make more sense probably 

Reading the Sam thread really got me thinking how much pressure will be on Zach Wlson.  He'll be forever compared to not only Sam but Trevor Lawrence as well......

Looking back since I have watched the Jets - over 40+ years the only QBs they drafted and developed at all are - 

Ken O'Brien - developed nicely - If he only had an OL he could have been awesome - great arm and touch

Chad Pennginton - I loved Chad as a QB....he was developed nicely as he was give lots of time to sit and learn.  Fantastic mind in reading  defenses....great leader....just had an average arm that became a huge liability when he had the rotator cuff injury - that did him in....without that injury he could have became great.  

Mark Sanchez - thrown into the fire so no real development time- Showed how even a shaky QB without experience can win if he walks into a great situation.....top OL....solid weapons...very good coaching staff....top defense.  When these strengths started going away he was exposed as a lower level QB.  

QBs that they drafted high and didnt develop

Browning Nagle - couldnt grasp the offense and no touch - poor coaching and team around him

Geno Smith - trouble adapting to NFL - never looked comfortable - didnt have a good team around him - poor coaching and no team around him

Christian Hackenberg - see above - 1st QB I can remember drafted in 1st 2 rds that never took a snap in regular season

Sam - see above - kept making rookie mistakes - poor coaching/team

Looking at the above - Nagle, Smith, HAck and Sam  all had lousy coaching a teams around them so they never developed.......Ken, Chad and Sanchez had much better teams and coaching.....itmay be a chicken or the egg scenario but obviously if JD can put a solid team around Wilson and Saleh/LaFleur are solid coaches then the kid has a chance to develop....even if he turns out to be not a complete stud...he has the skills to lead a team to playoffs like Kenny O, Chad and Sanchez if JD.coaches are the real deal....we are going to have to endure another red shirt year from a rookie but 2022 is where it should all come together.  

Kiddnets said:

Reading the Sam thread really got me thinking how much pressure will be on Zach Wlson.  He'll be forever compared to not only Sam but Trevor Lawrence as well......

Looking back since I have watched the Jets - over 40+ years the only QBs they drafted and developed at all are - 

Ken O'Brien - developed nicely - If he only had an OL he could have been awesome - great arm and touch

Chad Pennginton - I loved Chad as a QB....he was developed nicely as he was give lots of time to sit and learn.  Fantastic mind in reading  defenses....great leader....just had an average arm that became a huge liability when he had the rotator cuff injury - that did him in....without that injury he could have became great.  

Mark Sanchez - thrown into the fire so no real development time- Showed how even a shaky QB without experience can win if he walks into a great situation.....top OL....solid weapons...very good coaching staff....top defense.  When these strengths started going away he was exposed as a lower level QB.  

QBs that they drafted high and didnt develop

Browning Nagle - couldnt grasp the offense and no touch - poor coaching and team around him

Geno Smith - trouble adapting to NFL - never looked comfortable - didnt have a good team around him - poor coaching and no team around him

Christian Hackenberg - see above - 1st QB I can remember drafted in 1st 2 rds that never took a snap in regular season

Sam - see above - kept making rookie mistakes - poor coaching/team

Looking at the above - Nagle, Smith, HAck and Sam  all had lousy coaching a teams around them so they never developed.......Ken, Chad and Sanchez had much better teams and coaching.....itmay be a chicken or the egg scenario but obviously if JD can put a solid team around Wilson and Saleh/LaFleur are solid coaches then the kid has a chance to develop....even if he turns out to be not a complete stud...he has the skills to lead a team to playoffs like Kenny O, Chad and Sanchez if JD.coaches are the real deal....we are going to have to endure another red shirt year from a rookie but 2022 is where it should all come together.  

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The Jets haven't been able to develop QBs due to a lack of organizational stability.  That includes poor coaching, but this team has created an impossible environment for a QB to grow in.  Changing philosophies, new GMs, new coaches, rotating players, an impatient fan base, and media machine that thrives on creating high expectations and then tearing down QBs at the first sign of weakness have all created a toxic, rudderless ship.  To me, that starts and ends with ownership.  Without a consistent strategic plan, this team is going nowhere and we will continue to see young QBs fail.   

Mookie said:

The Jets haven't been able to develop QBs due to a lack of organizational stability.  That includes poor coaching, but this team has created an impossible environment for a QB to grow in.  Changing philosophies, new GMs, new coaches, rotating players, an impatient fan base, and media machine that thrives on creating high expectations and then tearing down QBs at the first sign of weakness have all created a toxic, rudderless ship.  To me, that starts and ends with ownership.  Without a consistent strategic plan, this team is going nowhere and we will continue to see young QBs fail.   

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So many people hate the Johnsons - its not that they are meddling owners like Jerry Jones/Snyder/Houston....sure once and a while their fingerprints are all over moves like Favre and Tebow....but for the most part you dont hear complaints about them meddling....

they spend money - Jets are not a cheap franchise

their biggest issue is they just dont hire the right people......lets look at who they hired during their tenure

Al Groh - emergency hire after Belichick bailed - not their fault he bolted - another Parcells fall out.  

Terry Bradaway - 2001-2005 - not a good GM but that pick was from Parcells.  he had 4 yrs and drafted very poorly - remember trading 2 1sts for Dwayne Robertson and drafting Nugent in the 2d rd....ugh. 

Herman Edwards - 2001-05 - Not an awful coach...he got them to the playoffs and should have gone further...lacked killer instinct as played very conservative and god awful time management. 

 Mike Tannenbaum - 2006-12 - Best GM in Jets history - made some fantastic moves with the awesome Brick/Mangold draft...bringing in Edwards/Santonio...trade up for Revis....Sanchez did him in...unfairly - he earned a shot to rebuild after Sanchez and that was mistake from the Johnsons  

Eric Mangini - 2006-08 - another mistake - chasing the Pats and swung from player coach to disciplinarian.....he could have bee a very good coach but tried to be Belichick NY instead of himself....that team with Favre was on a roll....wore his welcome out by being difficult and admitted as such 

Rex Ryan - 2009-2014 - swing back to players coach - but cant argue that Rex wasnt a good hire and he was successful - they ruined him by not letting him rebuild with Mike T....they brought in Idzik who wanted to strip it down and Rex paid the price....Rex's personality didnt help as his act wore thin.

John Idzik - 2013-14 - huge GM mistake - they let a search firm rec this guy and he was terrible - good cap guy but awful at talent....12 picks in a draft and all stunk - disaster

Mike Mac  2015-18 - so they go from a search firm to letting Charlie Casserly who had nothing to do with the Jets make the rec.  Clueless - he was epically bad at not only drafting but Free agency.  still digging out - monster contracts to Bell, Trumain and Mosely - wasted $100M

Todd Bowles - 2015-2018 - Hottest coaching candidate - showed this yr in Tampa why....he just never could fit the HC mold...too laid back and non inspring - bad adjustments but didnt have much to work with....strangely Sam looked better under Bowles than the QB whisperer.  

Adam Gase - 2018-2020 - equivalent to the Jet fans chanting we want Sapp and the JEts drafting Kyle Brady....literally everyone knew he was terrible and Chris Johnson got sweet talked into it by Peyton Manning....he was awful on all levels and is a team killing coach.  

Joe Dougles - 2019-   Literally the only good thing to come out of the Gase era....has shown he understands FA, trades and drafting - albeit he leaves too many holes for my liking....has shown to be better than last 2 GMs already so hope...success will hinge on his QB pick.  

Looking at the above - there you have why the Jets have stunk - Johnsons have made awful hirings at the critical GM/HC levels.....its tough to argue that they were too impatient in firing any on this list except Rex/Tanny and they were coming off multiple losing seasons so cant kill them for it....I am confident that if JD is solid then this can turn around...they finally let the GM lead a coaching search instead of outside influences not associated or walking out the door like Parcells.  

Its a new era - I know the last one just began but just gotta chalk the Gase era up to a wasted 2 yrs....the real rebuild starts now.  

Went back and watched the Wilson workout again on youtube this morning. Trying SO hard to see what everyone claims to see. I just dont.

Obviously there were some incredible throws. He seems to have good footwork (although who knows how much of that is just the choreographed nature of the workout). I also saw a lot of REALLY mediocre throws. Overthrew some easy ones and there were a bunch of others that were behind the receiver or forced them to noticeably slow down.  Just like in his highlight tapes, I see a lot of throws that only worked for him because he was playing lousy teams with no talent.

I just keep going back to the one-year wonder nature of the whole thing (combined with the natural maturity of BYU's roster, which I firmly believe gave them an advantage this past year)

Just seems like everyone is trying SO hard to gas up "the next Patrick Mahomes" because they want it to happen. I hope they're right. But to me, it just seems like the early 2000's NBA all over again. Dirk Nowitzki blew up and became a new prototype and next thing you know, any European 7 footer with a pulse who could hit the rim with a 3 pointer was a lottery pick.

But there was only 1 Dirk and there's only one Mahomes. To me, Wilson just looks like a guy who figure out how to do a decent Mahomes impression against lousy competition.

I promise to stop with the negativity once they draft him.

TLEF316 said:

Went back and watched the Wilson workout again on youtube this morning. Trying SO hard to see what everyone claims to see. I just dont.

Obviously there were some incredible throws. He seems to have good footwork (although who knows how much of that is just the choreographed nature of the workout). I also saw a lot of REALLY mediocre throws. Overthrew some easy ones and there were a bunch of others that were behind the receiver or forced them to noticeably slow down.  Just like in his highlight tapes, I see a lot of throws that only worked for him because he was playing lousy teams with no talent.

I just keep going back to the one-year wonder nature of the whole thing (combined with the natural maturity of BYU's roster, which I firmly believe gave them an advantage this past year)

Just seems like everyone is trying SO hard to gas up "the next Patrick Mahomes" because they want it to happen. I hope they're right. But to me, it just seems like the early 2000's NBA all over again. Dirk Nowitzki blew up and became a new prototype and next thing you know, any European 7 footer with a pulse who could hit the rim with a 3 pointer was a lottery pick.

But there was only 1 Dirk and there's only one Mahomes. To, Wilson just looks like a guy who figure out how to do a decent Mahomes impression against lousy competition.

I promise to stop with the negativity once they draft him.

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Its a very fair critique....Pro Days are over rated as they are glorified choreography...I remember Jake Locker and Jamarcus Russel wowing at pro days...doesnt mean much.

Ill say this - no one expected Joe Burrow to go #1 and he looked great before injury....no one is expecting him Wilson to be the next Mahomes....if he can just be competent hopefully they will build a solid team around him...

They need to take Fields.  Why are they so intent on Wilson?  I don't see it either.  

I like Wilson fine, but Fields is an elite prospect. 

Kiddnets said:

Its a very fair critique....Pro Days are over rated as they are glorified choreography...I remember Jake Locker and Jamarcus Russel wowing at pro days...doesnt mean much.

Ill say this - no one expected Joe Burrow to go #1 and he looked great before injury....no one is expecting him Wilson to be the next Mahomes....if he can just be competent hopefully they will build a solid team around him...

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I will say this....Burrow is obviously the counter argument to the "It was just one year" argument. He wasn't especially prolific his first year at LSU. He was efficient, but didn't look like anything close to a first rounder.

But his "bad year" is still MILES better than anything Wilson did prior to this season. I mean.....11 TD's and 9 INT's? Come on

Watching the workout, you would think this guy had just thrown a ball over the stadium with the way Jeremiah and the others were reacting. Have you really never seen someone in shorts throw a 15 yard side-arm throw with nobody defending him? Just seems to me like everyone missed on Mahomes and now want to be sure they dont look stupid by not going gaga over the "Next Mahomes".

I'm not saying he doesn't have arm talent. I just don't see how he's become the consensus # 2 pick given his overall body of work.

I still can't believe that we haven't tried to sign a CB yet. We have the cap room. Getting Nelson/Sherman before the draft would help a lot. Heck, I guess we're going with Guidry as the slot CB. I think we have Hall and Austin on the outside.

Kiddnets said:

So many people hate the Johnsons - its not that they are meddling owners like Jerry Jones/Snyder/Houston....sure once and a while their fingerprints are all over moves like Favre and Tebow....but for the most part you dont hear complaints about them meddling....

they spend money - Jets are not a cheap franchise

their biggest issue is they just dont hire the right people......lets look at who they hired during their tenure

Adam Gase - 2018-2020 - equivalent to the Jet fans chanting we want Sapp and the JEts drafting Kyle Brady....literally everyone knew he was terrible and Chris Johnson got sweet talked into it by Peyton Manning....he was awful on all levels and is a team killing coach.  

Joe Dougles - 2019-   Literally the only good thing to come out of the Gase era....has shown he understands FA, trades and drafting - albeit he leaves too many holes for my liking....has shown to be better than last 2 GMs already so hope...success will hinge on his QB pick.  

Its a new era - I know the last one just began but just gotta chalk the Gase era up to a wasted 2 yrs....the real rebuild starts now.  

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Gase may have been their best hire by accident.

He got Maccan't fired which helped to stop us from completely bleeding out.

JD may turn out to be a very good GM.

He was so bad that we finally got the dysfunctional organizational structure fixed now that the coach reports to the GM.

He was so bad that we got into position to draft a potential franchise QB.

Time will tell (lots of ifs and mays) but maybe some day we'll have a statue of Gase in our shared stadium as the guy that got everything turned around.

NYRAGE said:

Gase may have been their best hire by accident.

He got Maccan't fired which helped to stop us from completely bleeding out.

JD may turn out to be a very good GM.

He was so bad that we finally got the dysfunctional organizational structure fixed now that the coach reports to the GM.

He was so bad that we got into position to draft a potential franchise QB.

Time will tell (lots of ifs and mays) but maybe some day we'll have a statue of Gase in our shared stadium as the guy that got everything turned around.

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true - sometimes you need to hit rock bottom.....the name "Gase" is equivalent to Munson in Kingpin - people will just know ....Our team got "Gased".....

If they get a solid GM out of it and straighten out then being Gased may be worth it!  

NYRAGE said:

I still can't believe that we haven't tried to sign a CB yet. We have the cap room. Getting Nelson/Sherman before the draft would help a lot. Heck, I guess we're going with Guidry as the slot CB. I think we have Hall and Austin on the outside.

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I think they'll draft a CB, but I'm a bit surprised as well. Maybe they bring Sherman in at some point.

Re-thinking all of this. Our running backs are a weak group. We may need to use a higher pick on one.

Fields is surging in the media and their perception of him. I'm not immune to this sort of media swing. I'd hate to have Douglas's job right now, knowing I had to make a pick between Wilson and Fields.

Lots of people with opinions about Wilson's quality of competition and other such relevant things. Pointing out Fields's pedigree as far as his previous accomplishments go. His five-star rating. His TD:INT ratio from 2019. Everything you can think of, the Fields supporters have brought out the kitchen sink in order to influence folks.

Thing is, for every stat they bring up about Fields vis a vis Lawrence or vis a vis Jones, I keep seeing one name stubbornly atop all of the lists for statistical production, and that's Wilson from 2020. He's at the top of darn near every category for all schools that you can think of.

So the media is really in full shark circle around the Jets and the Wilson pick. I wonder how much of that has to do with Fields and the narrative and how much of it has to do with actual quarterbacking play. Because if you look at statistics -- TD:INT ratio, under pressure, from a clean pocket -- from everything I've seen, it's always Wilson second in line to someone else whereas Fields and Lawrence finish down in the pack in certain categories. I don't know. It's a wing and a prayer and I hope the Jets make the right decision. I think we'll actually know pretty quickly this time.

Dr. Octopus said:

I think they'll draft a CB, but I'm a bit surprised as well. Maybe they bring Sherman in at some point.

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It's looking that way, and I'm also surprised and disappointed.  They need to do it differently this time and surround their new QB with real talent, and a lot of it. 

I've been saying all along that they should spend their late 1st or early 2nd on one of the elite RBs.  They have no talent there so it would represent a huge upgrade, and a good RB can really help take pressure off of a young QB, which will help him develop.  IMO they should go Fields at 1.02, O-line or RB at 1.23, and whoever they don't take at 1.23, take at 2.02 so they walk away from the first 2 rounds with their QB, an upgraded o-line, and a skill position player that will make a big difference for the QB.  The fact that they haven't signed any of the free agent CBs, some of whom are decent short term starters, it makes me concerned they're going to take one early in the draft.  IMO it's a mistake to not seriously focus on surrounding the new QB with talent right away.  Don't repeat the mistakes made with Darnold.

RC94 said:

It's looking that way, and I'm also surprised and disappointed.  They need to do it differently this time and surround their new QB with real talent, and a lot of it. 

I've been saying all along that they should spend their late 1st or early 2nd on one of the elite RBs.  They have no talent there so it would represent a huge upgrade, and a good RB can really help take pressure off of a young QB, which will help him develop.  IMO they should go Fields at 1.02, O-line or RB at 1.23, and whoever they don't take at 1.23, take at 2.02 so they walk away from the first 2 rounds with their QB, an upgraded o-line, and a skill position player that will make a big difference for the QB.  The fact that they haven't signed any of the free agent CBs, some of whom are decent short term starters, it makes me concerned they're going to take one early in the draft.  IMO it's a mistake to not seriously focus on surrounding the new QB with talent right away.  Don't repeat the mistakes made with Darnold.

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This is where having a coach that concentrates on the defensive side of the ball leads me to believe that defense is where the upgrade will happen in the first round. At CB or along the defensive line. Saleh is a D-Line guy first and foremost. It wouldn't surprise me if they added another pass rusher. 

There also aren't necessarily any elite RBs in the draft. Harris, Etienne, and Williams all have their flaws. Harris and Williams lack the speed for the SF wide zone system, according to those in the know of the workings of said zone. That leaves you with Etienne. I don't disagree with you about surrounding the new QB with talent, but the RBs are what they are, and the system is what it is.

rockaction said:

This is where having a coach that concentrates on the defensive side of the ball leads me to believe that defense is where the upgrade will happen in the first round. At CB or along the defensive line. Saleh is a D-Line guy first and foremost. It wouldn't surprise me if they added another pass rusher. 

There also aren't necessarily any elite RBs in the draft. Harris, Etienne, and Williams all have their flaws. Harris and Williams lack the speed for the SF wide zone system, according to those in the know of the workings of said zone. That leaves you with Etienne. I don't disagree with you about surrounding the new QB with talent, but the RBs are what they are, and the system is what it is.

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I wouldn’t be upset if they drafted Etienne, but it’s been said in here a few times, and I agree, it’s unlikely Douglas does that.

I think third or fourth is when they may grab one.

rockaction said:

Re-thinking all of this. Our running backs are a weak group. We may need to use a higher pick on one.

Fields is surging in the media and their perception of him. I'm not immune to this sort of media swing. I'd hate to have Douglas's job right now, knowing I had to make a pick between Wilson and Fields.

Lots of people with opinions about Wilson's quality of competition and other such relevant things. Pointing out Fields's pedigree as far as his previous accomplishments go. His five-star rating. His TD:INT ratio from 2019. Everything you can think of, the Fields supporters have brought out the kitchen sink in order to influence folks.

Thing is, for every stat they bring up about Fields vis a vis Lawrence or vis a vis Jones, I keep seeing one name stubbornly atop all of the lists for statistical production, and that's Wilson from 2020. He's at the top of darn near every category for all schools that you can think of.

So the media is really in full shark circle around the Jets and the Wilson pick. I wonder how much of that has to do with Fields and the narrative and how much of it has to do with actual quarterbacking play. Because if you look at statistics -- TD:INT ratio, under pressure, from a clean pocket -- from everything I've seen, it's always Wilson second in line to someone else whereas Fields and Lawrence finish down in the pack in certain categories. I don't know. It's a wing and a prayer and I hope the Jets make the right decision. I think we'll actually know pretty quickly this time.

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JD has come out and said it was a clear top 2 QBs at the top for him. Assuming Lawrence was one of them, then it sounds like JD won't lose sleep over it. If what he said is true, then he has his clear choice with the second pick.

I would be happy with either QB, so I'm not losing sleep over it either. Statistically Wilson is the clear choice. 

rockaction said:

This is where having a coach that concentrates on the defensive side of the ball leads me to believe that defense is where the upgrade will happen in the first round. At CB or along the defensive line. Saleh is a D-Line guy first and foremost. It wouldn't surprise me if they added another pass rusher. 

There also aren't necessarily any elite RBs in the draft. Harris, Etienne, and Williams all have their flaws. Harris and Williams lack the speed for the SF wide zone system, according to those in the know of the workings of said zone. That leaves you with Etienne. I don't disagree with you about surrounding the new QB with talent, but the RBs are what they are, and the system is what it is.

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Did you see the 7 Round Mock Draft by Dane Brugler in the Athletic? I wasn't too happy with 2 defensive players in the top 3 picks. It's possible with JD. Even though he says that he will support the QB this time, I can see him going with edge at 23. I won't be happy with edge and CB there.  In the Saleh system, he may wait on CBs. We definitely need 2 o-linemen by the end of round 3.  RB can wait until round 4.  I think we definitely add a TE somewhere in round 3 or 4.

If I had to guess, I think he will drop down from 23 or 34 and add another third rounder.

2 Zach Wilson, QB, BYU

23 Azeez Ojulari, edge, Georgia

34 Asante Samuel Jr., CB, Florida State

66 Brady Christensen, OT, BYU

86 Kenneth Gainwell, RB, Memphis

107 Robert Hainsey, OG/C, Notre Dame

146 James Wiggins, DS, Cincinnati

154 Ben Mason, FB, Michigan

186 Isaiah McDuffie, LB, Boston College

226 Dax Milne, WR, BYU

NYRAGE said:

Did you see the 7 Round Mock Draft by Dane Brugler in the Athletic? I wasn't too happy with 2 defensive players in the top 3 picks. It's possible with JD. Even though he says that he will support the QB this time, I can see him going with edge at 23. I won't be happy with edge and CB there.  In the Saleh system, he may wait on CBs. We definitely need 2 o-linemen by the end of round 3.  RB can wait until round 4.  I think we definitely add a TE somewhere in round 3 or 4.

If I had to guess, I think he will drop down from 23 or 34 and add another third rounder.

2 Zach Wilson, QB, BYU

23 Azeez Ojulari, edge, Georgia

34 Asante Samuel Jr., CB, Florida State

66 Brady Christensen, OT, BYU

86 Kenneth Gainwell, RB, Memphis

107 Robert Hainsey, OG/C, Notre Dame

146 James Wiggins, DS, Cincinnati

154 Ben Mason, FB, Michigan

186 Isaiah McDuffie, LB, Boston College

226 Dax Milne, WR, BYU

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Is that The Athletic's mock for the Jets? No, I didn't see it. I generally am the last person that pays attention to mocks because there's so much that goes on differently during the draft from the mocks that nobody ever really knows who is going where and the exercise is generally futile.

So I don't really pay that much attention (or I should say put much stock) into any of them -- only for sussing out needs of teams, really. Like the Jets need OL, EDGE, and CB, plus a running back, so this mock draft addresses that. I guess I spoke too soon. I'll look at mocks for that. I tend not to concentrate on the actual players and the "who goes where" aspect of it. I will note which guys are going up or down the board and get a general consensus of how the league is processing their talent, like MAC_32 pointed out in another thread. I guess he and I look at that similarly.

rockaction said:

Is that The Athletic's mock for the Jets? No, I didn't see it. I generally am the last person that pays attention to mocks because there's so much that goes on differently during the draft from the mocks that nobody ever really knows who is going where and the exercise is generally futile.

So I don't really pay that much attention (or I should say put much stock) into any of them -- only for sussing out needs of teams, really. Like the Jets need OL, EDGE, and CB, plus a running back, so this mock draft addresses that. I guess I spoke too soon. I'll look at mocks for that. I tend not to concentrate on the actual players and the "who goes where" aspect of it. I will note which guys are going up or down the board and get a general consensus of how the league is processing their talent, like MAC_32 pointed out in another thread. I guess he and I look at that similarly.

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There are a million mock drafts out there. Several in the Athletic, but the one I referenced is by their draft analyst, Dane Brugler. He's fairly well known. He has a big draft guide that he calls "the Beast".  I believe that he was the first draft expert to list Wilson as QB2. He's been adamant about it for a long time.

I don't usually pay attention to mock drafts, but I looked at it this morning because he's very knowledgeable unlike the majority of jokers out there doing mocks like Steve Serby and Pete Prisco.

rockaction said:

So the media is really in full shark circle around the Jets and the Wilson pick. I wonder how much of that has to do with Fields and the narrative and how much of it has to do with actual quarterbacking play. Because if you look at statistics -- TD:INT ratio, under pressure, from a clean pocket -- from everything I've seen, it's always Wilson second in line to someone else whereas Fields and Lawrence finish down in the pack in certain categories. I don't know. It's a wing and a prayer and I hope the Jets make the right decision. I think we'll actually know pretty quickly this time.

Click to expand...

The Jets are an easy target to be the butt of jokes in the media and message boards (and rightfully so), so that's where the sudden backlash against Wilson and the puffing up of Fields is coming from. Everyone is waiting to laugh at the Jets for taking the wrong guy.

I seriously have no idea if Wilson or Fields is the better choice both have their flaws or concerns, so I'm just going to hope for the best. Personally I like Wilson's all around game more but also understand Fields may be the safer choice.

NYRAGE said:

There are a million mock drafts out there. Several in the Athletic, but the one I referenced is by their draft analyst, Dane Brugler. He's fairly well known. He has a big draft guide that he calls "the Beast".  I believe that he was the first draft expert to list Wilson as QB2. He's been adamant about it for a long time.

I don't usually pay attention to mock drafts, but I looked at it this morning because he's very knowledgeable unlike the majority of jokers out there doing mocks like Steve Serby and Pete Prisco.

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Oh yeah, I know the name Dane Brugler, just not the specifics. He comes up often along the way in my football endeavors. I'd check it out, but don't have a subscription to The Athletic. If that's the mock you posted, that hits their needs, so...

There are also varying degrees of serious with which I treat individual mock drafts, for sure. But as a whole, that's my feeling about that. Perhaps next year you'll catch me touting them (or Brugler). This year I haven't been.

Dr. Octopus said:

The Jets are an easy target to be the butt of jokes in the media and message boards (and rightfully so), so that's where the sudden backlash against Wilson and the puffing up of Fields is coming from. Everyone is waiting to laugh at the Jets for taking the wrong guy.

I seriously have no idea if Wilson or Fields is the better choice both have their flaws or concerns, so I'm just going to hope for the best. Personally I like Wilson's all around game more but also understand Fields may be the safer choice.

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Yeah, this is likely true. Wilson was the GOAT until the Jets were on him and my Twitter universe declared a race foul. Then it was find fault with Wilson's game and trash the Jets, too. Easy peasy.

Some good recent posts - 

CB - I still am very unhappy that JD allowed such a gaping need going into the draft with all that cash.  I just dont get it - forces a need pick early which is not optimal

RB - I am also on the board thinking a great RB would do wonders for a QB - see Tanny in Tenn.....Id sign up for the best RB for the2d rd pick....but both JD and SF has shown zero value in the position so I can see them dumpster diving....its a shame because you see the difference in quality of RBs in the 2d rd vs a Perine who was in the 4th rd

QB - some great points here - Jets are a laughingstock - theyve earned it and they have to deal with it until they win.....as such the media will question and poke every avenue....remember the calls for Trevor to go back to school and/or demand a traded....I think Jax is a much worse situation and there hasnt been a peep.  Does any other team have a best of draft bloopers played every year?  Wilson could be the next coming of Favre/Mahomes but until they prove to win the team will be subject to media gouging- its too easy for them.....we honestly dont know who will be better....if JD throws a curve ball and goes Fields or even Lance Ill go with it....I think it was a pretty strong signal that he didnt go to Field's last pro day....

The Jets are an easy target (because for the most part,  they've been THAT bad) and a fun target (since most of the country who isn't NY loves to see the "big bad" New York team fail)

To most of the country, NY/NJ is just a bunch of loud mouth D-bags driving up and down the turnpike or "Wall Street" taking advantage of them. I mean, all you have to do is look at the "State Ranking" thread that Joe posted in the FFA.

I'm not saying that NJ is the BEST place in the country. But worse than Arkansas? Kentucky? West Virginia? Lets be serious for a minute. 

Nobody mocks Jacksonville because nobody cares about Jacksonville.

I dont buy that SF offered their #1 - but its being reported.....

The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise. 

TLEF316 said:

Have you really never seen someone in shorts throw a 15 yard side-arm throw with nobody defending him?

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Just reading this. In fairness, it was about a fifty-five yard throw downfield across his body.

But that's neither here nor there about pro days, I just question the need for reverse hyperbole here. Dude lit it from like sixty going full speed across his body. That's impressive arm talent. Nobody, for all the chinks in his armor now, is doubting it. That's a good thing. We won't have Pennington issues from the jump, anyway.

Kiddnets said:

I dont buy that SF offered their #1 - but its being reported.....

The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise. 

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So just like I was saying, a Pennington redux.

rockaction said:

Just reading this. In fairness, it was about a fifty-five yard throw downfield across his body.

But that's neither here nor there about pro days, I just question the need for reverse hyperbole here. Dude lit it from like sixty going full speed across his body. That's impressive arm talent. Nobody, for all the chinks in his armor now, is doubting it. That's a good thing. We won't have Pennington issues from the jump, anyway.

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That's not the throw I was talking about. The "big" throw was obviously incredibly impressive (although I'd be pretty surprised if he has to make that throw very often. And its just as likely to get picked off when there's actually a defender or 2 down there)

I'm talking about a throw earlier in the workout. It was just your basic crossing pattern and Wlison just kinda slung it sidearm/ 3-quarterish like 15 yards over the middle. Jeremiah nearly ruined his pants over it. 

It just seemed like there was a lot of unnecessary ooing and aahing over some very basic throws that Wilson made look slightly more impressive because he was throwing "off platform".

As I mentioned earlier, it was like he was doing a Mahomes impression just for the sake of making things look fancy. Not saying "off platform" throws aren't a useful skill. But I'd rather start with a guy who completes all the easy stuff (which Wilson did NOT do during his workout)

TLEF316 said:

That's not the throw I was talking about. The "big" throw was obviously incredibly impressive (although I'd be pretty surprised if he has to make that throw very often. And its just as likely to get picked off when there's actually a defender or 2 down there)

I'm talking about a throw earlier in the workout. It was just your basic crossing pattern and Wlison just kinda slung it sidearm/ 3-quarterish like 15 yards over the middle. Jeremiah nearly ruined his pants over it. 

It just seemed like there was a lot of unnecessary ooing and aahing over some very basic throws that Wilson made look slightly more impressive because he was throwing "off platform".

As I mentioned earlier, it was like he was doing a Mahomes impression just for the sake of making things look fancy. Not saying "off platform" throws aren't a useful skill. But I'd rather start with a guy who completes all the easy stuff (which Wilson did NOT do during his workout)

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Ah, okay then. Fields had the highest percentage of accurate balls per their charts, so there's that in comparison. Wilson wasn't top three in that respect. In other words, throws that were accurate and on target. Fields had something like 73%, per PFF.

Kiddnets said:

I dont buy that SF offered their #1 - but its being reported.....

The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise. 

Click to expand...

There is ZERO chance that happened. 

Kiddnets said:

I dont buy that SF offered their #1 - but its being reported.....

The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise. 

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Even if they were concerned about Wilson's shoulder there are other QBs they could have targeted.

But the most obvious reason why this did not happen is why would San Fran offer the 12th overall pick for a guy that has produced like Sam has his first three years even if he was "Gased"? Sticking with Jimmy G and keeping the 12th pick was the much better option for them.

Kiddnets said:

Some good recent posts - 

CB - I still am very unhappy that JD allowed such a gaping need going into the draft with all that cash.  I just dont get it - forces a need pick early which is not optimal

RB - I am also on the board thinking a great RB would do wonders for a QB - see Tanny in Tenn.....Id sign up for the best RB for the2d rd pick....but both JD and SF has shown zero value in the position so I can see them dumpster diving....its a shame because you see the difference in quality of RBs in the 2d rd vs a Perine who was in the 4th rd

QB - some great points here - Jets are a laughingstock - theyve earned it and they have to deal with it until they win.....as such the media will question and poke every avenue....remember the calls for Trevor to go back to school and/or demand a traded....I think Jax is a much worse situation and there hasnt been a peep.  Does any other team have a best of draft bloopers played every year?  Wilson could be the next coming of Favre/Mahomes but until they prove to win the team will be subject to media gouging- its too easy for them.....we honestly dont know who will be better....if JD throws a curve ball and goes Fields or even Lance Ill go with it....I think it was a pretty strong signal that he didnt go to Field's last pro day....

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That's a good point, one that I made to a friend yesterday that insists Fields will be the pick. He has a host of reasons why Wilson sucks (one year wonder, bad competition, small frame, etc.) yet ignores the flaws of Fields.

I think the reason why I like posting in this forum is despite it being a very small group, everyone is pretty open-minded and civil. Other Jets message boards and Twitter are pure toxicity.

I think a lot of people have their own agenda/perception and completely miss out on the clues in front of them. Then rather than admit being wrong, they will just root against our own players to prove they were right (e.g. root against Wilson if they like Fields). Or because they disagree, they start littering the threads with the same garbage over and over. By post #5, everyone starts insulting each other.

This is my long-winded way of saying that I appreciate you guys.....unless you were the ones hammering that we should keep Darnold and draft Sewell. Ha, just kidding.

Kiddnets said:

I dont buy that SF offered their #1 - but its being reported.....

The 49ers reportedly offered the Jets their first-round pick -- 12th overall in this year's draft -- in the hopes of acquiring Darnold, per Cecil Lammey of 104.3 The Fan in Denver, but the timing of the offer is a key reason the Jets didn't accept it. At the time, as in earlier this offseason, the Jets were seemingly still concerned about the shoulder of Zach Wilson, whom they've continuously been eyeing as potentially the new face of their franchise. 

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It's already been refuted by a few people. Here is one of them. 

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1382704871619592193?s=20

If this were true, JD would have carried Darnold on his shoulder and walked all the way to SF.

NYRAGE said:

That's a good point, one that I made to a friend yesterday that insists Fields will be the pick. He has a host of reasons why Wilson sucks (one year wonder, bad competition, small frame, etc.) yet ignores the flaws of Fields.

I think the reason why I like posting in this forum is despite it being a very small group, everyone is pretty open-minded and civil. Other Jets message boards and Twitter are pure toxicity.

I think a lot of people have their own agenda/perception and completely miss out on the clues in front of them. Then rather than admit being wrong, they will just root against our own players to prove they were right (e.g. root against Wilson if they like Fields). Or because they disagree, they start littering the threads with the same garbage over and over. By post #5, everyone starts insulting each other.

This is my long-winded way of saying that I appreciate you guys.....unless you were the ones hammering that we should keep Darnold and draft Sewell. Ha, just kidding.

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Agreed. A place like this is a million times better than Jets specific forums.

For the record, I dont have any sort of agenda against Wilson. I just see a lot of red flags and big time bust potential. Fields is far from perfect, but I feel he's much safer (Despite the history of tOSU QB's) and still has PLENTY of upside. (Dak?)

As I said, if Wilson is the guy, I will do my absolute best to be positive and not say "I told you so" if he stinks off the bat.