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Green Bay Packers Thread (2 Viewers)

Phenomena said:
You're also making assumptions that Scott is going to be very good.  90% chance he's better than that list??? The last top-drafted punter has performed worse than several undrafted punters in the same class. Bryan Angerer is in the bottom 10 for net punting yardage since he's come into the league. Punters have a decent bust-rate as well.
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I said he has a good chance to be better than 90% of that list.

I firmly believe he will contribute more in 2018 than Brett Hundley ever did. He will contribute a lot more than Yancey, Quinn, Quarless, etc. This is an absolute certainty... a punter playing every punt snap will undoubtedly contribute more in 1 season than any of those backups ever did in their entire career. 

Yes, I'm assuming Scott will be good. All indications point to him being so. I have no idea if he will bust or not. Packers drafting history shows he has a very high chance of being a bust... like anyone else they would have picked. 

 
dipandglide said:
You have to think that one of them will separate from the other. JW pass blocking is by all accounts better. Plus, he seems more durable and able to fit the hammer role. If I had to take one I'd bet on Jamaal. 
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Id probably err on this side being safer.

Jones is more the home run pick...big burst, but have to realize there will be games he doesn't bust one if they are splitting carries 60/40ish in favor of JW (which would be my guess).

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I don't necessarily disagree and obviously hope you end up being right on Scott, but find myself leaning skeptical on this pick. In any case, it will give us something to talk about for a while. Since Vogel asked for and got his release, Scott is the only punter on the roster right now (unless I missed something). Vogel's net average last year was the highest ever for a Packer. His hang time was also very good. Only 2 touchbacks on 71 punts was 4th in the league. He is probably not a great coffin-corner guy, but did very well imo for a rookie free agent in a very tough venue for punters.  It was interesting in the interview I read that Vogel said the Packers told him they drafted Scott because he was the highest rated player on their board at the time.  That just seems funny to me, a team that drafted cornerbacks 1-2 claims BPA to explain this pick to their jilted punter. They were probably hoping he would stick around to provide some competition, but its a good look for the team that they granted his request to be released.  It was no surprise that Elliot Wolf scooped him up quickly.

I made a joke about BJ Sander a few pages back, and probably have a "once bitten ..." attitude about this pick. Sander was a 3rd rounder, which is quite a bit different than a 5th, granted, but we also heard about how he'd be pinning back opposing teams on the goal line for 10 years. He single-handedly beat Michigan, etc. etc. The talk about Scott is very familiar.

Just as an aside, I like Linsley and disagree he's "below average." Only lineman to play 100% of the snaps last season and was more than adequate.  He does get beat 1 v 1 by bigger athletes but is an extremely reliable, smart guy to have running the show for the OL. There's a reason the Packers just gave him a $25mil 3 year extension. 
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I had read Linsley rated as the 24th or 26th best Center last season. Assuming 16th is average, he falls below average. That was where I was getting my below average rating for him. He was supposed to take a big leap last year and just looked like a guy. Capable of starting but nothing major. He got beat a lot unfortunately. I think he has potential and I was supportive of GB letting Tretter walk and seeing what Linsley could do. 

As I said in an earlier post, in 2017 GB was 23rd in yards per punt. Tied for last in punts inside the 20, sure only 2 touch backs but that tells me Vogel couldn't pin them inside the 20 and wouldn't kick it into the endzone... I'd rather he lead the league in touch backs because that'd mean the opposition is starting at the 20. Being last for punts inside the 20 and best in touch backs means the opponent started at better than the 20 yard line each series. That's definitely not good.

That possibly means Vogel was the worst punter in the NFL in regards to where opponents start each series

 
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Dr. Dan said:
I had read Linsley rated as the 24th or 26th best Center last season. Assuming 16th is average, he falls below average. That was where I was getting my below average rating for him. He was supposed to take a big leap last year and just looked like a guy. Capable of starting but nothing major. He got beat a lot unfortunately. I think he has potential and I was supportive of GB letting Tretter walk and seeing what Linsley could do. 

As I said in an earlier post, in 2017 GB was 23rd in yards per punt. Tied for last in punts inside the 20, sure only 2 touch backs but that tells me Vogel couldn't pin them inside the 20 and wouldn't kick it into the endzone... I'd rather he lead the league in touch backs because that'd mean the opposition is starting at the 20. Being last for punts inside the 20 and best in touch backs means the opponent started at better than the 20 yard line each series. That's definitely not good.

That possibly means Vogel was the worst punter in the NFL in regards to where opponents start each series
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He was a rookie.  And he improved as the season progressed.  And the offense was abysmal after Rodgers went down so he rarely had the opportunity to pin people inside the 20.  Have to look at the whole story.

 
Phenomena said:
He was a rookie.  And he improved as the season progressed.  And the offense was abysmal after Rodgers went down so he rarely had the opportunity to pin people inside the 20.  Have to look at the whole story.
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Yes, you're right. I have high hopes for him. As I said, I was supportive of letting Tretter walk and going with Linsley. I think he's got talent. I'm grading him unfairly on 1 year of work in a non-optimal situation, I can completely admit to that. He has potential to be a steal similar to Bakhtiari. As was mentioned before, GB obviously has faith given the extension he signed. It'd be great to get a steady starter with a 5th round investment. 

 
Dr. Dan said:
As I said in an earlier post, in 2017 GB was 23rd in yards per punt. Tied for last in punts inside the 20, sure only 2 touch backs but that tells me Vogel couldn't pin them inside the 20 and wouldn't kick it into the endzone... I'd rather he lead the league in touch backs because that'd mean the opposition is starting at the 20. Being last for punts inside the 20 and best in touch backs means the opponent started at better than the 20 yard line each series. That's definitely not good.

That possibly means Vogel was the worst punter in the NFL in regards to where opponents start each series
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I'm confused on the value of the "punts inside the 20" stat, but I don't think your bolded conclusion is correct.  If the Packers are punting from anywhere inside their own 25 yard line or so, which is probably the lion's share of their punts, he's never going to pin the opposition inside its own 20, nor is he getting a touchback - so that conclusion seems false. Contrary to popular belief, McCarthy actually lead the NFL in 4th down conversion attempts last season.  The Packers are very rarely punting from midfield or beyond, where its either a touchback or a coffin-corner/fair catch scenario.

The more telling stat for me is that Vogel was 7th in the NFL in net yards per punt. As noted, his net was the best in Packer history, besting legends like Scribner, Landetta and McJulien. Green Bay punting stats are always hard to compare across the league, since they competing with all the warm weather and dome punters. For example, his gross average (44.4) was 23rd in the league last year, but was 5th best all time in Packer history, just one tenth of a yard behind Jon Ryan in 4th. His hangtime (4.31) was also one of the best in Packers history, per McGinn.

Vogel was an undrafted rookie. So I guess the question for Scott will be how much better you get with a 5th round pick as compared to a street guy.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I'm confused on the value of the "punts inside the 20" stat, but I don't think your bolded conclusion is correct.  If the Packers are punting from anywhere inside their own 25 yard line or so, which is probably the lion's share of their punts, he's never going to pin the opposition inside its own 20, nor is he getting a touchback - so that conclusion seems false. Contrary to popular belief, McCarthy actually lead the NFL in 4th down conversion attempts last season.  The Packers are very rarely punting from midfield or beyond, where its either a touchback or a coffin-corner/fair catch scenario.

The more telling stat for me is that Vogel was 7th in the NFL in net yards per punt. As noted, his net was the best in Packer history, besting legends like Scribner, Landetta and McJulien. Green Bay punting stats are always hard to compare across the league, since they competing with all the warm weather and dome punters. For example, his gross average (44.4) was 23rd in the league last year, but was 5th best all time in Packer history, just one tenth of a yard behind Jon Ryan in 4th. His hangtime (4.31) was also one of the best in Packers history, per McGinn.

Vogel was an undrafted rookie. So I guess the question for Scott will be how much better you get with a 5th round pick as compared to a street guy.
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Stats

Well, he's 23rd in average yards. So if GB is punting from their own 10 rather than their own 40, it's still a crappy average 

GB was 11th in Net yards per punt, which means he had a good cover team

Punts inside the 20 means he was able to punt the ball inside the 20 yard line. 
Touch backs means a touch back and the opponents start on the 20. 

So... if you have high numbers of punts inside the 20, and low touch backs, it means you are pinning opponents back really well

If you have low numbers of punts inside the 20, and high touch backs, it means you are kicking it out of the end zone too much

If you have low numbers of punts inside the 20 and low touch backs, it means you are kicking deep out of your own territory more often than not. Which is likely the scenario for Vogel. However, I would think then he should have a high yard per punt average, but he was in the bottom 50% of the league. So in essence, he was good at nothing. 

 
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Bronco Billy said:
Thank God for the offseason or we’d never have had the time to probe the GB punting situation to such great depth.
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If Scott was an UDFA we wouldn't be talking about it.  They blew a valuable 5th round pick on a punter. It's worth discussion on the value of the pick and what they could have gotten instead. 

 
Phenomena said:
If Scott was an UDFA we wouldn't be talking about it.  They blew a valuable 5th round pick on a punter. It's worth discussion on the value of the pick and what they could have gotten instead. 
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:lmao:  Let it go man.  They got a guy they wanted, probably wouldn't have made it to UDFA since other punters were drafted after him, and they had a boatload of draft picks.  All of their draft picks will not make the 53 man roster, Scott will.  Value for every pick is overrated...sometimes you just have to take the guy you want and need.

 
Phenomena said:
This is demonstrably false. PFF did an analysis years back about a "Robo-punter who could always place the ball at the 1-yard line" which would be an extremely good version of a punter... they conclusively analyzed that he wouldn't even be worth a first round pick because they are not significantly marginally better than normal human punters whom you can get undrafted.  I'll see if I can find the article.  

Considering the net punting yardage difference between top punters and the ones who went undrafted is roughly 3-5 yards per punt, I find drafting a punter to be laughable. Much rather take a 10% chance on a starter at a key position in rounds 5 or later.
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That sounds like some very bad analysis.

A punter who could put the ball at the one yard line every single time should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.

 
Witten thinks dez ends up a packer  :oldunsure:

On The Adam Schefter Podcast, Monday Night Football's Jason Witten said he believes former teammate Dez Bryant will sign with the Packers.

It is unclear if Witten has inside information or is just working off a hunch, but his opinion is notable considering the duo spent eight seasons together in Dallas. It would also be a good fit. The Packers need someone opposite Davante Adams on the outside, and Bryant's skill set would fit well in the old Jordy Nelson role. Green Bay did take three receivers in the draft, but letting the rookies sit behind Bryant for a year makes sense.

 
shady inc said:
Witten thinks dez ends up a packer  :oldunsure:

On The Adam Schefter Podcast, Monday Night Football's Jason Witten said he believes former teammate Dez Bryant will sign with the Packers.

It is unclear if Witten has inside information or is just working off a hunch, but his opinion is notable considering the duo spent eight seasons together in Dallas. It would also be a good fit. The Packers need someone opposite Davante Adams on the outside, and Bryant's skill set would fit well in the old Jordy Nelson role. Green Bay did take three receivers in the draft, but letting the rookies sit behind Bryant for a year makes sense.
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Assuming a one year "prove it" deal at an affordable level I think this makes a lot of sense.  Buys our young receivers time to develop, gives ARod a red-zone weapon, gives Dez the opportunity to prove he isn't done (or he is).  

Seems to me if Dez has anything left to offer, 1 year with ARod tossing you the rock on a Super Bowl contender is about as motivational a tool as you could ask for.

 
Geez, the Cowboys’ WR corps is pretty pathetic and they had no interest in keeping Dez.  No one else is making him any offers.  I’m guessing no one thinks the attitude is worth the chance that he has some fumes left in the tank.  Why would we want him?

 
Longtucky Lemmings said:
Assuming a one year "prove it" deal at an affordable level I think this makes a lot of sense.  Buys our young receivers time to develop, gives ARod a red-zone weapon, gives Dez the opportunity to prove he isn't done (or he is).  

Seems to me if Dez has anything left to offer, 1 year with ARod tossing you the rock on a Super Bowl contender is about as motivational a tool as you could ask for.
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There is no "affordable" for Green Bay. The Packers have very little cap space after the draft picks are signed.  Maybe $6M?  And you have to carry a little bit through the season in case you need to sign someone.  Traditionally, Ted carried betwen $5M-$8M in emergency cap space.

Plus, we need that cap space for Rodgers' extension. Any amount rolled over can be used for next year and his extension is going to eat up a lot of it.

Dez would have to sign for something unbelievably low like $2M for 1 year for it to be possible.  It's not going to happen.

 
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Mister CIA said:
That sounds like some very bad analysis.

A punter who could put the ball at the one yard line every single time should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.
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I bet the study doesn’t take into account the extra points you’d score on safeties or turnovers in the end zone, only the ydg difference.

 
I figure Jimmy Graham is going to soak up Jordy's RZ targets. Does Dez want to go to GB? Hell yes! Does GB want Dez? Not without some injuries to their vets.

 
Bronco Billy said:
Geez, the Cowboys’ WR corps is pretty pathetic and they had no interest in keeping Dez.  No one else is making him any offers.  I’m guessing no one thinks the attitude is worth the chance that he has some fumes left in the tank.  Why would we want him?
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I don't even think it's really about his attitude but more about he's just not that good anyone.  He just doesn't have the separation he once did, sounds like another WR whom they just let go, granted Dez is younger.

 
I don't think the Packers can do anything of any significance until they get Rodgers' deal done.  They were waiting for Matt Ryan, and now that those numbers are in I expect negotiations are under way. Ryan's deal set all sorts of new records, this most important of which are $100mil guaranteed and over $98mil. paid in the first three years. The Packers will have to find a way to beat those numbers, then they can think about guys like Dez Bryant.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I don't think the Packers can do anything of any significance until they get Rodgers' deal done.  They were waiting for Matt Ryan, and now that those numbers are in I expect negotiations are under way. Ryan's deal set all sorts of new records, this most important of which are $100mil guaranteed and over $98mil. paid in the first three years. The Packers will have to find a way to beat those numbers, then they can think about guys like Dez Bryant.
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Dez will be cheap.

 
Packers new GM making a splash with Dez.  No, just no.  Not happening.  The Dez drama is the last thing they need or want.

 
Dez needs the Packers, the Packers absolutely do not need Dez.  Why would we want an aging cancer who will want to demand the ball to prove himself.  We have plenty of talent and plenty of young guys needing reps, some in the system now for a year or two.  Frankly, with Dez's learning curve he would pick up the offense right about the time training camp ends next year.  No thanks!  Now if Witten wants to join us that's maybe another matter.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Dez needs the Packers, the Packers absolutely do not need Dez.  Why would we want an aging cancer who will want to demand the ball to prove himself.  We have plenty of talent and plenty of young guys needing reps, some in the system now for a year or two.  Frankly, with Dez's learning curve he would pick up the offense right about the time training camp ends next year.  No thanks!  Now if Witten wants to join us that's maybe another matter.
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Because none of the young guys are remotely good? Chemistry is another matter but he’d be a big upgrade on the field imo.

 
voiceofunreason said:
Because none of the young guys are remotely good? Chemistry is another matter but he’d be a big upgrade on the field imo.
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How so?

1.  Dez isn't a good route runner

2.  Dez likely will be slow to pick up the offense

3.  Dez didn't get much separation last year

4.  Dez isn't a good locker room guy

The only thing Jordy Nelson has in common with the above negatives is #3.  So if we are willing to settle for Dez....why wouldn't we have just kept Jordy and eliminated these other negatives? 

Or, perhaps you disagree with the above. What do you see differently?  It's tough to see how Dez would be worth signing for a cap-constrained team like the Packers.

 
voiceofunreason said:
Because none of the young guys are remotely good? Chemistry is another matter but he’d be a big upgrade on the field imo.
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Michael Clark J'Mon Moore, Yancy Deangelo and Equanimeous St. Brown are all excellent prospects.  They will round out Cobb and Adams very nicely.  They have size, speed, better hands than Dez (who doesn't) and they are young and hungry and have, for Clark and DeAngelo, been in the playbook.  Dez has always been a problem in the locker room and a ball dropper and now he has lost a step.  Nope, with Montgomery out of the backfield and the addition of Graham pass catchers are not the issue.  If the Packers need buttressing somewhere it is not at receiver.  Can Dez play outside linebacker?  Maybe he can compete at long snapper.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Michael Clark J'Mon Moore, Yancy Deangelo and Equanimeous St. Brown are all excellent prospects.  They will round out Cobb and Adams very nicely.  They have size, speed, better hands than Dez (who doesn't) and they are young and hungry and have, for Clark and DeAngelo, been in the playbook.  Dez has always been a problem in the locker room and a ball dropper and now he has lost a step.  Nope, with Montgomery out of the backfield and the addition of Graham pass catchers are not the issue.  If the Packers need buttressing somewhere it is not at receiver.  Can Dez play outside linebacker?  Maybe he can compete at long snapper.
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Maybe he can provide depth on the offensive line.  We could use that too.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
#3 going in to camp
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This is definitely true, but I will be surprised if this situation remains the same when the season kicks off. Geronimo has almost no advantages since there will be a new playbook which levels out the playing field for the rookies. Also watching the post draft interviews they seem pretty intent on getting more speed on the field, that leaves Geronimo out as well. He’s neither fast nor has great hands, I’m hoping one of the rookies wins the #3 spot outright, because we need someone to threaten defenses and just make our offense more explosive. 

 
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The Claymaker said:
This is definitely true, but I will be surprised if this situation remains the same when the season kicks off. Geronimo has almost no advantages since there will be a new playbook which levels out the playing field for the rookies. Also watching the post draft interviews they seem pretty intent on getting more speed on the field, that leaves Geronimo out as well. He’s neither fast nor has great hands, I’m hoping one of the rookies wins the #3 spot outright, because we need someone to threaten defenses and just make our offense more explosive. 
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He has one advantage that can change pretty quickly...knowledge of Rodgers.  Despite what we, as fans, saw and didn't like about him...when he was in there, Rodgers still looked his way and went to him.  Rooks have to find that and earn it...not always easy...especially with what I think will be a focus by Rodgers and Graham to build their own chemistry.

 
keeping tabs on our favorite ex-Packer:

Damarious Randall‏Verified account @RandallTime

If the Cleveland Cavaliers win the 2018 NBA finals I’ll buy everyone who retweet’s this a jersey...

8:58 PM - 28 May 2018

190,621 Retweets
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Less than a day later, and over 190,000 retweets so far ... 

 
Michael Clark retires.  Was interested in seeing his potential...though, with all the draft picks at WR not sure he would make it out of camp.  His size was intriguing.

Wish him well.

Saw a collage of pictures as theolayers walked towards the bikes and J’Mon Moore stood out as he walked next to Cobb and Adams.  I like some of the talent they drafted.

Blurbs that Graham will line up outside quite a bit...not a big shock.  Though would love to see him used down the seam.  Seems like want that size mismatch like they used with previous TEs just not enough.

 
sho nuff said:
Michael Clark retires.  Was interested in seeing his potential...though, with all the draft picks at WR not sure he would make it out of camp.  His size was intriguing.

Wish him well.

Saw a collage of pictures as theolayers walked towards the bikes and J’Mon Moore stood out as he walked next to Cobb and Adams.  I like some of the talent they drafted.

Blurbs that Graham will line up outside quite a bit...not a big shock.  Though would love to see him used down the seam.  Seems like want that size mismatch like they used with previous TEs just not enough.
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I understand Graham being lined up outside completely.  He’s a liability as a blocker and is a TE pretty much because of his size.  His game is much more WR than TE.  Let him get out into space a little and force the D to deal with him.

Damn, it is so much fun and heartwarming to see the players riding the bikes from the dorms with the kids running along side.  I love this time of the year.  

 
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sho nuff said:
Michael Clark retires.  Was interested in seeing his potential...though, with all the draft picks at WR not sure he would make it out of camp.  His size was intriguing.
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This is a big bummer. He was actually a dark horse candidate for me to maybe emerge as a WR4/5 with potential to climb the depth chart. 

IMO this means Trevor Davis may make the team. I can see them keeping 7 WRs. I had always penciled Clark in. 

 
And here come the injuries.

Sounds like Jake Ryan was carted off the field, and according to his reaction that it could be for a prolonged period.

 
options for MLB

Jones wouldn't be bad but then we have a hole at safety. but Rollins was drafted as a safety to convert to cb, and he stands to be our cb4 at best. Maybe he converts. 

Matthew's inside isn't bad either. He has lost his effectiveness outside and that would free up Biegel to jump in. I think I like this option best 

Anyone regretting passing on Tremaine Edmunds yet

 
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Dr. Dan said:
options for MLB

Jones wouldn't be bad but then we have a hole at safety. but Rollins was drafted as a safety to convert to cb, and he stands to be our cb4 at best. Maybe he converts. 

Matthew's inside isn't bad either. He has lost his effectiveness outside and that would free up Biegel to jump in. I think I like this option best 

Anyone regretting passing on Tremaine Edmunds yet
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I think Burks is going to be a better pro than Edmunds.

 
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