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Dean Smith And The Four Corners And The Shot Clock


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6 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Has anything invigorated the second half like the shot clock?  

The opening rounds of the NCAA tourney used to be brutal when the lower seeded small schools would go 4 corners right from the beginning in an effort to slow down the game and keep the score close.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Octopus said:

The opening rounds of the NCAA tourney used to be brutal when the lower seeded small schools would go 4 corners right from the beginning in an effort to slow down the game and keep the score close.

Shot clock was necessary in those cases. Just teams sitting on the ball.  

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6 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Shot clock was necessary in those cases. Just teams sitting on the ball.  

The use of four corners at the high school and middle school level was brutal in the 80s.   I think my middle school coach went to it with 5 minutes to go like clockwork because we could shoot free throws well. 

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I feel like it's maybe time for basketball to take the next step and do away with the late game intentional fouls. The rules are already in place. An intentional foul results in free throws and the team retaining possession. Why aren't all the late game intentional fouls called that way?

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1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

I feel like it's maybe time for basketball to take the next step and do away with the late game intentional fouls. The rules are already in place. An intentional foul results in free throws and the team retaining possession. Why aren't all the late game intentional fouls called that way?

What if it's not intentional?  I tell my guys to steal the ball and not worry abut fouling.  

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I feel like it's maybe time for basketball to take the next step and do away with the late game intentional fouls. The rules are already in place. An intentional foul results in free throws and the team retaining possession. Why aren't all the late game intentional fouls called that way?

Actually, basketball-wise, it'd be impossible to officiate. So says they. :P

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Ban the low five after every free throw attempt. Remove the video review thing for contact to the head they do or change the process of how they do it now. Two years minimum in college if you go but let kids go straight into pros if they want. Figure out a way to pay the kids some cash - many different ways to do, pick one. Mandatory requirement that the Hoosiers get 1 top 5 McDonalds All American every season.

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17 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I feel like it's maybe time for basketball to take the next step and do away with the late game intentional fouls. The rules are already in place. An intentional foul results in free throws and the team retaining possession. Why aren't all the late game intentional fouls called that way?

Why do you want to stop the intentional fouls as a strategy for a team that is behind to get back into the game?  If that is taken away there are many games whose outcome would be set with minutes to go in the game.  It would make the last few minutes meaningless in games that are close enough to use this option.

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Just now, Gally said:

Why do you want to stop the intentional fouls as a strategy for a team that is behind to get back into the game?  If that is taken away there are many games whose outcome would be set with minutes to go in the game.  It would make the last few minutes meaningless in games that are close enough to use this option.

It's fine and basketball doesn't need to really change. I just personally don't care for the the final 2 minutes of a game taking 15 minutes and 15 free throws. 

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20 minutes ago, Short Corner said:

What if it's not intentional?  I tell my guys to steal the ball and not worry abut fouling.  

At least make the guys fake it better. Players will just run up and hug the guy when he gets the ball. Rules could easily be adjusted to get rid of the end of the game foul strategy, but it does extend the games which I am sure the NCAA and NBA and their pockets enjoy. It can create some fascinating comebacks when a team just goes cold from the line. 

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42 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

In a 1973 game, Tennessee beat Temple by a score of 11 to 6.

Upset fans demanded the implementation of a shot clock, but the NCAA resisted for another 12 years, largely due to pressure from Dean Smith.

Ahhh, the Dean.  

eta* Like my friend used to say every time he got in trouble in college. "You may be Dean. But you're no James Dean!"

exit stage left. 

Edited by rockaction
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Been discussed for the past year or so, but the Elam Ending is the next game-changer.

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/26/tbt-basketball-nick-elam-jon-mugar-earl-boykins

Quote

Instead of playing until the clock hits zero, teams will play until the clock hits a different time—four minutes left in a college game, three in pro—and then the clock shuts off. Seven is added to the leading team’s score, and that total becomes the target score—once either team reaches or surpasses that total, the game is over.

 

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29 minutes ago, TakiToki said:

Been discussed for the past year or so, but the Elam Ending is the next game-changer.

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/26/tbt-basketball-nick-elam-jon-mugar-earl-boykins

 

Interesting idea, but it has flaws. One tweak I would make is if the winning team is up by more than 15 or something then the clock keeps running. 

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3 hours ago, rockaction said:

Has anything invigorated the second half like the shot clock?  

No mention of the benefits of cheating having an effect on the second half?

  • Players are less mentally taxed because they didn’t have to attend class.
  • Athletes who are gifted players but not the brightest bulbs might sign with UNC due to the fake classes and easier workload. Better quality teams make the second half better. 
  •  

 

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Just now, Johnny Rock said:

No mention of the benefits of cheating having an effect on the second half?

  • Players are less mentally taxed because they didn’t have to attend class.
  • Athletes who are gifted players but not the brightest bulbs might sign with UNC due to the fake classes and easier workload. Better quality teams make the second half better.

 

Hey, whoa now. Don't wanna single out a program here. We all get the luxury of Dean's tactic once used once. 

x---------------------------x

|                                       |

|                                       |

|                                       |

X---------------------------x

Mr. Excitement!

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On 5/15/2018 at 11:55 AM, Johnny Rock said:

No mention of the benefits of cheating having an effect on the second half?

  • Players are less mentally taxed because they didn’t have to attend class.
  • Athletes who are gifted players but not the brightest bulbs might sign with UNC due to the fake classes and easier workload. Better quality teams make the second half better. 
  •  

 

This

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  • 2 weeks later...

I hated that SOB for doing that.  I remember he once went into the 4 corners after the opening tipoff against UK in the late 70s or early 80s, can't remember exactly when it was but it was painful to watch. .  It worked because UNC won.  They got a lot of backdoor cuts to the basket because UK started overplaying their man.  Still, the most boring basketball in the history of basketball, especially for the NCAA tournament.  You have to go back to the 40s or 50s to see that much boring basketball.  It should have been stopped long before it was.

Edited by JohnnyU
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  • 3 months later...
On 5/28/2018 at 9:23 AM, JohnnyU said:

I hated that SOB for doing that.  I remember he once went into the 4 corners after the opening tipoff against UK in the late 70s or early 80s, can't remember exactly when it was but it was painful to watch. .  It worked because UNC won.  They got a lot of backdoor cuts to the basket because UK started overplaying their man.  Still, the most boring basketball in the history of basketball, especially for the NCAA tournament.  You have to go back to the 40s or 50s to see that much boring basketball.  It should have been stopped long before it was.

Easy there, fella. That old Dean was a tactician of the highest order.  

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  • 4 weeks later...

One of the greatest innovators of the game.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but the following were Dean’s ideas.  Handing a towel to the person you are subbing in for to make sure you know who you are guarding.  Chairs on the floor during timeouts for privacy.  Pointing to teammate who assisted your basket.  Fouling to lengthen the game when behind and timeouts after made buckets.  Hard to find someone more influential on to today’s game.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/28/2018 at 6:23 PM, JohnnyU said:

I hated that SOB for doing that.  I remember he once went into the 4 corners after the opening tipoff against UK in the late 70s or early 80s, can't remember exactly when it was but it was painful to watch. .  It worked because UNC won.  They got a lot of backdoor cuts to the basket because UK started overplaying their man.  Still, the most boring basketball in the history of basketball, especially for the NCAA tournament.  You have to go back to the 40s or 50s to see that much boring basketball.  It should have been stopped long before it was.

Pete Newell did this at CAL when they played Russell's USF team but still ended up losing.  Minimizing possessions increased variance and if teams panicked they opened themselves up to back doors as you stated.

IIRC, the Villanova and NC State upsets don't happen without considerable delay tactics.

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  • 2 months later...
On 9/25/2018 at 11:42 PM, KickinT said:

One of the greatest innovators of the game.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but the following were Dean’s ideas.  Handing a towel to the person you are subbing in for to make sure you know who you are guarding.  Chairs on the floor during timeouts for privacy.  Pointing to teammate who assisted your basket.  Fouling to lengthen the game when behind and timeouts after made buckets.  Hard to find someone more influential on to today’s game.

I think Jim Valvano is the one who started using the fouls as a strategy.

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For all Dean's success with 4C, it cost him one championship directly - against Marquette in '77 - and maybe the chance to play for a couple of others. In the '70s, Smith's teams were almost always more talented than their opponents. The four corners negated some of that when he'd go to it early.

That said, Phil Ford was the absolute best at running it.

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  • 9 months later...
On 10/10/2019 at 1:33 PM, rockaction said:

This might be my favorite thread that I ever started, I think. Nothing like the ole four corners.

Nope. Nothin'.

Mourinho's 2010 Inter Milan team is oddly similar from a tactical perspective, even while conceding possession (86% to Barca in the semis) rather than hogging it.  Terrible to watch for neutrals, extremely frustrating for the opposition, but a win is a win and a championship is a championship no matter how you slice it.

 

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  • 2 months later...

It's not difficult to defense, you're gonna get burned if his athletes can catch it and get past you though so...every opposing coach seems to think it's a chess match and they should stay set on D. 

How is it not the most genius play ever? He convinced an opponent to not play D.

Ask some random guys at open gym to run it, watch everyone man up and stop it just fine. It's just not difficult to defend.

Princeton would turn it into an offense and...that was genius and patience. How to cut? How to read a defender? Where to throw it? You could teach kids just off that tape.

A reactive basketball offense is awesome. After running into each other and getting yelled at for a month, things finally click and you'd swear the D is playing a different lesser game than you.

Watch Bobby Knight's old Alford Smart team. It's not his motion offense. It was brilliant like Sheldon drawing on a white board on BBT...amazing how every cut demanded another regardless of the ball. Who plans an offense without the ball? But if you watch Smart drive or their 3, their own players are in their way and they gotta take baby jumpers rather than layups. No individuals! It's fascinating to watch

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  • 1 year later...
On 12/21/2018 at 8:35 AM, Uruk-Hai said:

For all Dean's success with 4C, it cost him one championship directly - against Marquette in '77 - and maybe the chance to play for a couple of others. In the '70s, Smith's teams were almost always more talented than their opponents. The four corners negated some of that when he'd go to it early.

That said, Phil Ford was the absolute best at running it.


Cool thread. Nice point. Al McGuire's obit from the time of his death in the New York Times. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/27/sports/al-mcguire-72-coach-tv-analyst-and-character-dies.html

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On 9/25/2018 at 8:42 PM, KickinT said:

One of the greatest innovators of the game.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but the following were Dean’s ideas.  Handing a towel to the person you are subbing in for to make sure you know who you are guarding.  Chairs on the floor during timeouts for privacy.  Pointing to teammate who assisted your basket.  Fouling to lengthen the game when behind and timeouts after made buckets.  Hard to find someone more influential on to today’s game.

high-fiving after a missed free throw?

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