Offensive Lines (1 Viewer)

Borden said:

I google the players name then PFF. Example: “Joe Thomas PFF” Then scroll down. That how I get the players individual grade. It is a combined grade of run and pass.

The group ranking that used was from the PFF link in the first post. If you read through the blurbs on each team they have the groups yards before contact number. Then say where that number ranks them in the next sentence. These’s numbers are from last year, of course, but I want to clarify that and that they aren’t projections for this coming year.

PFF Link

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The only problem with using the groups yards before contact number from last season is the generally high degree of turnover. Only Philadelphia, Tennessee and Atlanta are returning all the players who started every game in 2017. 

For most teams you are going to have turnover of players and/or coaching staff and/or switching positions. So what do whole group metrics from 2017 really tell us about 2018?

Borden said:

I google the players name then PFF. Example: “Joe Thomas PFF” Then scroll down. That how I get the players individual grade. It is a combined grade of run and pass.

The group ranking that used was from the PFF link in the first post. If you read through the blurbs on each team they have the groups yards before contact number. Then say where that number ranks them in the next sentence. These’s numbers are from last year, of course, but I want to clarify that and that they aren’t projections for this coming year.

PFF Link

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Yeah, I am not going to google 160 players to maybe get their run blocking grades.

The link doesn't say anything about the run blocking grades for the Eagles. It says they ran a lot of trap plays and the yards gained on those. So that list isn't really helping me find what I am looking for, otherwise I would use it.

I looked at Matt Harmons article in regards to next gen stats and the yards gained before close. But he only lists the top 10 offensive lines. That Dallas and the Eagles were not in the top 10 really makes me wonder about that stats usefulness. Similar to PFF the articles are a tease. There is no complete data to try to use as an asset or to try to backtest its utility.

So the only thing that I have complete as far as run blocking grades in football outsiders.

I was thinking to try to use a few different grading systems and average those together as possible improvement on FBO ALY. But with incomplete data, I don't see any way to do that.

Many of you have touted PFF as the best, but without the complete data it has no utility to me.

Biabreakable said:

Many of you have touted PFF as the best, but without the complete data it has no utility to me.

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Well, you can pay for it. I have access to it but do not feel it is appropriate to post all of the OL run blocking grades here.  

Just Win Baby said:

Well, you can pay for it. I have access to it but do not feel it is appropriate to post all of the OL run blocking grades here.  

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I think that's a fair point on your part, but the Biabreakable point still stands. PFF certainly has every right to charge for the product they are selling..... I doubt anyone begrudges them that. But it's pretty hard to be considered the defacto standard if you put your content behind a walled garden. I'm not accusing you of pulling numbers out of your @#$ but if we can't see them then anytime someone quotes PFF rankings they aren't really compelling arguments to me. YOU pay for it because I assume you feel as though it gives you some sort of competitive advantage in your leagues, or something. And that's fine. To me they are just numbers pulled out of thin air without a sense of context because I don't really know(or frankly even care) if there are PFF numbers that contradict the point the poster who just stumbled down Mt Sinai with the PFF rankings is trying to make.

While I haven't actually seen the latest Madden ratings on players for several years, at least I assume there's some place on the web where we could actually see and compare the rankings ourselves. Are they as exhaustive as PFF in making sure their rankings are accurate? Probably not. They are all imperfect even if every play is watched 5 times. Or 50 times. 

BTW, I'm not saying I would never actually pay for a PFF product either. In the NFL it's pretty easy to watch every NFL game and form your own opinions but it's either impossible or close to impossible to see every college game. I would be more interested in the college PFF rankings, personally.

Chaka said:

Arizona definitely looks questionable.

Miami, maybe.

Buffalo seems to have lost a lot.

Giants are adding a lot of new pieces.

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Seattle is usually a pretty good bet.

Just Win Baby said:

Well, you can pay for it. I have access to it but do not feel it is appropriate to post all of the OL run blocking grades here.  

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Nope don't. And I won't.

Borden said:

Their rush attempts should increase but going from 0-16 to a team that has a commanding enough lead that they can just sand away games with running the ball doesn't seem like a strong possibility. I do overall agree that they will run the ball more often. Adding Hyde and Chubb to not run the ball much would be dumb.

However, the OL improving with the loss of Joe Thomas doesn’t seem likely. The rankings based off of where they ran is pretty strange. To the left and center they were top 5ish. To the right they were 31st and 32nd. I would have to think that that left side was performing better with a Hall of Fame LT than without him. So how much did he boost that left side in the 6 or 7 games? I don’t know but when when you have the worst run blocking in the league on the right side, anything short of elite level play on the left is going to bring the whole unit down.

I do want to clarify that I don’t think they will be bad this year but I don’t the OL will be better this year. 

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Joe Thomas only played six full games.  Spencer Drango nine full games at LT. 

Thomas never missed a snap let alone a games so no contingency plan was in place.  

To say their should be a drop-off in talent from the combined play of six games of JT and nine of a rookie 5th round JAG is simply wrong.

RT Shon Coleman is being moved to his natural left tackle position he played in college.  The Browns signed TE Darren Fells considered the best in-line run blocking TE in the league and used a high second round pick on Austin Corbett in the draft.  Much different from mid-season no contingency plan panic mode forced to use Spencer Drango to having a time to move Coleman to LT, sign Hubbard to play RT, a legit high pick in Austin Corbett as a luxury back up and TE Darren Fells to boost the run game.

Their are reasons why I expect the Browns offensive line to perform better than they had last year.  

I was trying to think back to the last time Detroit's OL was above average.....

Nope, not in my lifetime. 

BoltBacker said:

YOU pay for it because I assume you feel as though it gives you some sort of competitive advantage in your leagues, or something.

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I pay for the least expensive package because I am a football fan and a fan of their methodology. I don't think it gives me any form of competitive advantage in fantasy football.

BoltBacker said:

To me they are just numbers pulled out of thin air without a sense of context because I don't really know(or frankly even care) if there are PFF numbers that contradict the point the poster who just stumbled down Mt Sinai with the PFF rankings is trying to make.

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How condescending.  

Just Win Baby said:

How condescending.  

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My NGUS rankings of message posts has that one pegged at 0.398.

If you are interested in becoming a platinum NGUS member to find out if that is a compliment or a dig, just message me to find out the P.O. Box where you can send the cashier's check.

BoltBacker said:

My NGUS rankings of message posts has that one pegged at 0.398.

If you are interested in becoming a platinum NGUS member to find out if that is a compliment or a dig, just message me to find out the P.O. Box where you can send the cashier's check.

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No idea what you are talking about and couldn’t care less 

Just Win Baby said:

I pay for the least expensive package because I am a football fan and a fan of their methodology. I don't think it gives me any form of competitive advantage in fantasy football.

How condescending.  

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Aw come on JWB that Mt Sinai bit was pretty funny.

Just Win Baby said:

No idea what you are talking about and couldn’t care less 

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Now you finally realize how the vast majority of people feel when "PFF people" blather on about numbers completely without context. I knew we could find common ground eventually.

BoltBacker said:

Now you finally realize how the vast majority of people feel when "PFF people" blather on about numbers completely without context. I knew we could find common ground eventually.

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I don’t think I do that. For example, I think I provide good context when I post about the Chargers PFF grades/ranks. If you disagree and don’t want to read about it, put me on ignore. 

Borden said:

Ourlads projected starters vs last years. With PFF grades from last year. 

C - Russell Bodine 46.8 vs Eric Wood 67.9

G - John Miller 39.1 vs Incognito 80.5

T - Dion Dawkins 74.5 vs Glenn 68.1

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I have the projected starters as

Tackles - Mills & Dawkins
Guards - Miller & Ducasse
Center - Bodine

 Miller and Bodine are concerns. It is funny that Dawkins represents an upgrade over Glenn. Public perception seems to be the contrary.

32 Counter Pass said:

I have the projected starters as

Tackles - Mills & Dawkins
Guards - Miller & Ducasse
Center - Bodine

 Miller and Bodine are concerns. It is funny that Dawkins represents an upgrade over Glenn. Public perception seems to be the contrary.

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Ourlads has Ducasse and Mills as the starters too but they were starters last year. I was just going with what the changes in the OL could be. 

I think that the Bills moving Glenn was kind of telling. At the very least you’d think that they saw Dawkins as at least serviceable but with a better price tag. 

BoltBacker said:

Now you finally realize how the vast majority of people feel when "PFF people" blather on about numbers completely without context. I knew we could find common ground eventually.

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You mad bro?

I am fortunate enough, or maybe you would call it foolishness, to afford a PFF Elite subscrpition. As a consequence, I don’t have to come on a message board and rail at other people trying to share information. Why do I indulge in such nonsense? Because I am interested in any predictive outcomes their numbers may offer. Yes, I am looking for an advantage.

From The PFF site:

How we grade offensive and defensive linemen

The cornerstone of Pro Football Focus’ grades and the philosophical basis for play-by-play grading is the belief that consistency is paramount in football. We believe that repeatedly executing one’s assignment is more valuable in the long run than highlight-reel plays. No area of the football field does this ring true more so than in the trenches. Pancakes and sacks look impressive, but they make up an incredibly small portion of a player’s overall snaps and are often times a matter of luck. We try as hard as possible to isolate in our grading that which a player can control and not downgrade/reward them for things out of their control.

Let’s examine a little closer exactly what that means.

The key to properly evaluating performance on any given play is understanding assignments. A common criticism of PFF is that we can’t possibly know what those assignments are, and thus can’t accurately evaluate. While the claim that we can’t know with 100 percent certainty a player’s assignment is valid, it doesn’t logically lead to the conclusion of not being able to accurately evaluate. There’s two reasons for this. The first is that the amount of times a player’s assignment is not glaringly obvious to a trained observer is minimal – especially with 1,000 snap sample sizes over a season. The second is that every single independent observer suffers from the exact same lack of inside information. That means that when a GM drafts a quarterback No. 1 overall or signs a cornerback to a $60-million deal, he too does not know if that player has been executing what’s asked of him. Taken to it’s logical conclusion, if we can’t evaluate players without knowing the play call then no one outside of the player’s specific organization can.

The fact of the matter is, the game of football isn’t nearly as complex as people make it seem. Each player has a simple assignment on every play. If they didn’t, they’d get bogged down thinking in a game where speed is everything. No one is reinventing the wheel schematically and you’ll see the same coverages/run schemes/pass concepts/etc. hundreds of times every weekend. If we can’t say with 95 percent certainty we know what the player was supposed to be doing on the play, the player receives a neutral 0 grade.

Run Game

Gap control is the name of the game in run defense. Each defensive lineman is responsible for a gap (sometimes two) and the vast majority of the time, that gap is the one he’s lined up in. Some elite players like Aaron Donald and J.J. Watt are given the freedom to get out of their gap in an effort to make more plays, but your run-of-the-mill defensive tackle better hold his ground in his gap. Get taken out of your gap, widen that gap considerably or get pushed well back off the line of scrimmage and the defender is looking at a downgrade. Get past the offensive lineman on contact, squeeze your gap down or rock the offensive lineman into the backfield and you’re looking at a positive grade.

Trench grading is almost always dichotomous in nature. A positive for a defender means a negative for the offensive lineman and vice versa. There are obvious exceptions like an offensive lineman running the wrong play or a defender taking himself out of a gap voluntarily, but for most 1-on-1 interactions, the scale will be equal.

Scale is the key word there. We differentiate between simply doing your job and going above and beyond. While a position coach might give an offensive lineman a positive for engaging a defender and using his hands well, we look at what both players are trying to do on a given play. If that defender doesn’t cede ground and is still holding his gap, both players will receive a neutral 0 grade on the play. There’s also a difference between an offensive lineman being stood up in his tracks (a likely -0.5) and him being immediately swam at the snap (a likely -1.5).

The -2.0 to +2.0 scale allows for multiple levels of execution to be captured over the course of a game.

Pass-rushing/blocking

Pass-rushing is one of the most straight-forward and well-defined areas of our grading system. It’s also been the most consistently predictive. We emphasize wins for defensive linemen and avoiding losses for offensive linemen. Each snap a defensive lineman rushes, he receives a fraction of a negative (based on leaguewide expectations in that situation) while an offensive lineman receives a fraction of a positive. This results in per-snap efficiency being the most important part of each player’s overall grade.

Pass rushes can vary from +0.5 to +1.0 to +1.5 depending on how quickly a defender defeats the block and gets to the top of the pocket in order to pressure the quarterback. Unblocked pressures will not receive as high of a grade as one that involves a quick one-on-one win.

The initial win is crucial, and that, combined with speed to the quarterback and finishing the play, will make up a pass-rusher’s grade on a given play. This is why total pressure ranks can and will differ greatly from pass-rush grades. It’s also the reason why we keep saying Donald is unlike any other defensive tackle we’ve ever seen. The Rams defender may have only finished the season with 11 sacks, but he had 63 pass-rushes graded at +1.0 or higher. The next closest interior defender was Jurrell Casey with 39.

Totaling the grades

After the game is over, the grades are tallied and a normalization factor is applied. Exactly how big the normalization is depends on a number of play-specific elements (depth of drop, QB rollouts, down and distance, alignment, etc.). It isn’t uncommon for a multi-sack performance to receive an average or even poor grade from us for the reasons above. Ultimately, we’re trying to quantify talent and the ability to win 1-on-1 interactions consistently is more indicative of that than any sack or hit total.

No grading system is ever going to be perfect, and we readily admit that ours is constantly trying to get better. Offensive line versus defensive line though is about as pure a grading scale as there is in the game. The assignments are obvious, all that matters is can you beat the man in front of you.

Quantifying that ability will always be our goal.

****

HTH

Hey the offensive line thread. What's up! 

• The depth charts at FBG are updated by yours truly, and not the same as ourlads. We put starters in blue, positional battles in green and injury replacements in red  
  
• Here's Wyatt Teller, the 5th rd pick hoping to replace Vlad Ducasse at RG in BUF making pancakes
  
• RE: Snap counts here is a variable called "cohesion" I grade as a 6th starter and update it weekly based on projected lineup due to injury. 
  
• usually post the first cut of rankings in end of July. But here's the model as it stands in June.
  
• Happy to answer any questions about teams, how the model works, etc. 
  

-Bit

I am interested in your methodology. Let's take NE as the case study. Can you explain their low ranking? 

Matt Bitonti said:

The depth charts at FBG are updated by yours truly, and not the same as ourlads. We put starters in blue, positional battles in green and injury replacements in red

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Here is what you have for the Chargers:

LT: Russell Okung, Chris Hairston
LG: Dan Feeney, Donavon Clark
C: Mike Pouncey, Scott Quessenberry 
RG: Forrest Lamp
RT: Joe Barksdale, Michael Ola

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Agree with the starters, but most of the backups have issues:

• T Hairston is not on the roster. As far as I can tell, he is an unsigned free agent.
  
• T Ola is on the Saints roster.
  
• You are missing G/T Schofield, who signed a 2 year $5M contract this offseason and should be viewed as the first backup to both Lamp and Barksdale. It is unlikely, but there is a non-zero chance that he could ultimately start over RT Barksdale.
  
• You do not show C/G Pulley. He was a disaster as the starting C last season, but I would be very surprised if he doesn't make the roster as a backup. I would expect him to be the #2 center over rookie Quessenberry, at least to start the season.
  
• You do not show T Tevi, who should be the other reserve T besides Schofield to make the final roster, unless long shot UDFA Crabtree edges him out, but I don't see that happening.
  
• Barring injuries, IMO G Clark is a long shot to make the final roster, since I see the Chargers carrying 9 OL, with Schofield, Pulley, Quessenberry, and Tevi as the backups.
  

 

Matt Bitonti said:

usually post the first cut of rankings in end of July. But here's the model as it stands in June

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Would love to see an in depth explanation of the #14 ranking for the Chargers. Especially with cohesion as a 6th starter. This season, the Chargers should start 2 players (Pouncey, Lamp) who have never played a snap for the Chargers, 1 player (Feeney) who played 665 snaps last year in his only NFL season, and 1 player (Okung) who has played a total of 15 games for the Chargers. That makes it seem like their cohesion should be graded very low.

Also, I'm interested in how your rankings separate out OL performance from other positions. Easy example: the Chargers allowed the fewest sacks last season... how do you separate OL performance from Rivers' performance in terms of grading?

32 Counter Pass said:

I am interested in your methodology. Let's take NE as the case study. Can you explain their low ranking? 

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In the offensive line model, I grade each of the 5 starters on an A-plus through F scale

(although realistically, few starters grade below C+ the lower grades are reserved for when backups or street free agents find their way into the lineup after injuries strike the starters).

These grades rarely change through the season (Andrew Norwell was upgraded last year, for example, mid-year) but these are mostly based on resume and experience.  That is not to say the film isn't watched, I also consume every snap for every game for every week. Still, I do not adjust individual grades based on the film unless it is extreme in on direction or the either.   

Once we have the individual grades, they are weighted: tackles 2x, Center 1.5x and Guard 1x. The swing tackle (1st off the bench) is graded 0.5x. and even the OL coach gets a grade he only gets 0.1x maybe that's harsh, it used to be 0.5x.  

But I also grade something called "Cohesion" as a 6th starter. 1x weighting on Cohesion another ordinal grade based on having all 5 players in the same 5 spots as perfect 5.0 "A++" cohesion. No starter can grade higher than 4.5. Imagine a team has all 5 players but the guards swap places, like Ron Leary, that's a half point deduction etc. If someone new comes in to start, in a position they have never started before on that team, it's a full point deduction. 

In my model although the player grades don't move much, cohesion changes on a week to week basis on injury, performance and other lineup changes. To use an example Nate Solder's individual grade as a 3.25 (between B and B+) helps the Giants when he shows up but the overall cohesion score stays low until these players play enough snaps together for it to rise. The Giants will not be ranked as a premium or even mid-tier line until the cohesion score stabilizes. It usually takes about 4 weeks in my model for the cohesion of a new arrival to "level up."  But the cohesion score is where I can put thumb on the scale if the Giants' line looks amazing week 1 and 2 maybe I'll bump the Cohesion early. But proof has gotta be in the pudding. 

As for New England, this is their current individual grades. Their Cohesion is a 4. It's a full point deduction for the loss of Nate Soldier. And assuming everything else is the same more or less.

Keep in mind this line up is a projection. It's possible that Trent Brown or Isaiah Wynn start somewhere. I might actually be overrating Thuney and Andrews. The uncertainty at left tackle hurts. There's no elite talent (Pro Bowl or All Pro) and I'd like to hear your reasons for why they should be ranked higher. There is an upside to this unit if Wynn can crack the lineup and everyone stays healthy they are mid-tier. 

Just Win Baby said:

Would love to see an in depth explanation of the #14 ranking for the Chargers. Especially with cohesion as a 6th starter. This season, the Chargers should start 2 players (Pouncey, Lamp) who have never played a snap for the Chargers, 1 player (Feeney) who played 665 snaps last year in his only NFL season, and 1 player (Okung) who has played a total of 15 games for the Chargers. That makes it seem like their cohesion should be graded very low.

Also, I'm interested in how your rankings separate out OL performance from other positions. Easy example: the Chargers allowed the fewest sacks last season... how do you separate OL performance from Rivers' performance in terms of grading?

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1st off thanks for the depth chart feedback.  Good stuff dude. 

Here's the individual grades on LAC. Their Cohesion is also a 4, which using your standards might be considered high. It's a full point for the change out at center.

-Feeney started 9 games last year (not all in the same spot but still) that's good enough cohesion for this model. 

-I do not consider Forrest Lamp to be a truly new acquisition, the guy did spend a year in the system and all of the preseason last year. He should know the plays etc. This is a judgment call it doesn't often happen this way but considering him a returning starter. It's a benefit of the doubt situation and perhaps too generous I can see the case to lower cohesion. But I love Lamp (anchorman reference ) 

please read my methodology explanation to the Patriots dude, cohesion is a sliding 4-week window. Others might not agree but for the purposes of this model, it doesn't take 2 years of playing together for a line to have cohesion. 

Just Win Baby said:

Here is what you have for the Chargers:

Agree with the starters, but most of the backups have issues:

• T Hairston is not on the roster. As far as I can tell, he is an unsigned free agent.
  
• T Ola is on the Saints roster.
  
• You are missing G/T Schofield, who signed a 2 year $5M contract this offseason and should be viewed as the first backup to both Lamp and Barksdale. It is unlikely, but there is a non-zero chance that he could ultimately start over RT Barksdale.
  
• You do not show C/G Pulley. He was a disaster as the starting C last season, but I would be very surprised if he doesn't make the roster as a backup. I would expect him to be the #2 center over rookie Quessenberry, at least to start the season.
  
• You do not show T Tevi, who should be the other reserve T besides Schofield to make the final roster, unless long shot UDFA Crabtree edges him out, but I don't see that happening.
  
• Barring injuries, IMO G Clark is a long shot to make the final roster, since I see the Chargers carrying 9 OL, with Schofield, Pulley, Quessenberry, and Tevi as the backups.
  

 




1

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just noticed The link I posted was the "Lite" Depth charts which only go 2 deep on OL, hence why Pulley (C3) and Tevi (RT3) didn't appear. 

Here's the non-Lile depth chart. 

You were right about Schofield tho it was a mixup with Ola. Good catch. Schofield was in the model, he is graded as a 2.75 (B-) swing tackle in the individual grades. 

If Clark is the odd man out instead of Pulley that's good info something to watch this preseason. I assumed they brought in Pouncey and Quess and also can slide Feeney to C if need be (and make Schofield the next man up on game day at the other 4 positions).  

Matt Bitonti said:

1st off thanks for the depth chart feedback.  Good stuff dude. 

Here's the individual grades on LAC. Their Cohesion is also a 4, which using your standards might be considered high. It's a full point for the change out at center.

-Feeney started 9 games last year (not all in the same spot but still) that's good enough cohesion for this model. 

-I do not consider Forrest Lamp to be a truly new acquisition, the guy did spend a year in the system and all of the preseason last year. He should know the plays etc. This is a judgment call it doesn't often happen this way but considering him a returning starter. It's a benefit of the doubt situation and perhaps too generous I can see the case to lower cohesion. But I love Lamp (anchorman reference ) 

please read my methodology explanation to the Patriots dude, cohesion is a sliding 4-week window. Others might not agree but for the purposes of this model, it doesn't take 2 years of playing together for a line to have cohesion. 

View attachment 2878

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Thanks for responding. Comments:

1. Yes, I think based on your NE explanation above, grading the Chargers at 4 for cohesion is probably generous. You said you deducted a full point for the changeout at center, which means you are making no adjustment for Lamp moving into the lineup to replace Wiggins from last year. You explained that, I just don't agree with viewing him as a returning starter when he has literally never played a snap in the NFL.
   
2. You mentioned that you count the swing tackle in your methodology. But based on our depth chart exchange, you must have been counting an invalid player there, either Hairston or Ola. I don't know how you grade Schofield, so not sure if that affects the Chargers grade.
   
3. Finally, I don't find your grades for Barksdale to be credible. The pass grade isn't too far off, but I certainly don't believe he is above average there. More importantly, the run blocking grade seems way too high. I realize your grading will differ from PFF, but they graded him #122 out of 124 graded tackles at run blocking. And that is believable based on watching all of the Chargers games.
   

Combining these things, I can see why your grade for the Chargers was surprisingly high to me.

ETA: Not sure if this really matters, but I'm not sure what you meant in the bolded statement about Lamp being in "all of the preseason last year". He did not play in any preseason games. He tore his ACL on August 2, 2017, and the Chargers played their first preseason game on August 13, 2017.

Matt Bitonti said:

• here's the model as it stands in June.
  
• Happy to answer any questions about teams, how the model works, etc. 
  

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Have to ask about the low rating for Cleveland.

I had not seen any rank lower than 17 till this one.

 I posted about the raw talent level last year after losing Joe Thomas to this year after adding Chris Hubbard, Austin Corbett, and Darren Fells and others then see this from Matt Waldman which mentions other factors that bode well relevant to the Browns O-Line.:: 

Just posting the opening tidbit, go to the link for the full read....  >>>

THE BROWNS OFFENSIVE LINE IS BETTER THAN ADVERTISED

by Matt Waldman, June 21

Offensive line evaluation one of the muddiest endeavors in football analysis. Even so, there are situations where the context of how the game works can enhance or invalidate the data.

The Browns gave up 3.1 sacks per game in 2017 — among the worst in the league — and it isn't a one-year anomaly. Cleveland had the league's worst sack rate in 2016 and the third-worst in 2015. 

A vital factor contributing to all three years worth of these putrid sack rates has been quarterback and receiver play. Quarterback drops and receiver routes are linked and have specific timing. ...

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Last year the Pittsburgh Steelers O-Line was on a modern record pace having given up only 21 sacks in the first 15 games (1.4 sacks per game) heading into the finale at home against the winless Cleveland Browns who only had 31 sacks heading into the final but the Steelers sat starting QB Ben Reothisberger and starting WR Antonio Brown and started Landy Jones and rookie Ju Ju Smith Shuster.

The Steelers were under constant pressure and gave up 3 sacks.  The difference at QB and WR was evident.

In addition to adding Chris Hubbard and Austin Corbett and others on the O-Line and a stout in-line TE in Darren Fells the Browns should be improved at QB with Tyrod Taylor and at WR with Jarvis Landry.

I have to question the low offensive line rating.

Bracie Smathers said:

Last year the Pittsburgh Steelers O-Line was on a modern record pace having given up only 21 sacks in the first 15 games (1.4 sacks per game) heading into the finale

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That wasn't record pace. Just in the past 5 seasons, 7 teams have allowed 20 or fewer sacks in a season. Last season, the Chargers allowed 18 and the Saints allowed 20.

Allowing a low number of sacks certainly implies that the OL has done a good job in pass protection, but it also has a lot to do with the QB (pre-snap adjustments and getting the ball out quickly) and playcalling. I asked Matt earlier how he separates responsibility for the OL apart from other players, but he didn't respond to that question.

According to Football Outsiders, last year's Steelers allowed only 3 sacks in the QB Fault / Failed Scramble / Coverage Sack categories, which was the lowest in the league. In other words, their OL got a lot of help in keeping their sack totals down.

By many accounts, the Titans line did not do well this spring. Too early to read into this but there's a hmmm here

You mention the addition of Chris Hubbard twice, @Bracie Smathers. 

Is there anything to suggest in his four year career that he is anything other than a journeyman replacement level player?

Just Win Baby said:

Thanks for responding. Comments:

1. Yes, I think based on your NE explanation above, grading the Chargers at 4 for cohesion is probably generous. You said you deducted a full point for the changeout at center, which means you are making no adjustment for Lamp moving into the lineup to replace Wiggins from last year. You explained that, I just don't agree with viewing him as a returning starter when he has literally never played a snap in the NFL.
   
2. You mentioned that you count the swing tackle in your methodology. But based on our depth chart exchange, you must have been counting an invalid player there, either Hairston or Ola. I don't know how you grade Schofield, so not sure if that affects the Chargers grade.
   
3. Finally, I don't find your grades for Barksdale to be credible. The pass grade isn't too far off, but I certainly don't believe he is above average there. More importantly, the run blocking grade seems way too high. I realize your grading will differ from PFF, but they graded him #122 out of 124 graded tackles at run blocking. And that is believable based on watching all of the Chargers games.
   

Combining these things, I can see why your grade for the Chargers was surprisingly high to me.

ETA: Not sure if this really matters, but I'm not sure what you meant in the bolded statement about Lamp being in "all of the preseason last year". He did not play in any preseason games. He tore his ACL on August 2, 2017, and the Chargers played their first preseason game on August 13, 2017.

Click to expand...

The depth charts are not connected to the model. So the depth charts had Ola but the model had Schofield at B- with B run blocking and C+ pass protect. Two different systems 

As for Lamp I can certainly see your point, but it's a projection. I am being generous because a year in any team's strength and conditioning program will help any college player, especially an offensive lineman from a non-power 5 school. He's not really "new" he's been there all year and isn't a true rookie in that sense.

And let me reiterate I love Lamp. 

As for Barksdale, his grade of 3.25 could be high. Another fair point.  Here's my rebuttal. He played all last season with a foot injury (suffered in a preseason fight) which caused him to only start 11 games. This offseason it was revealed he struggles with depression. Assuming that both issues are under control he should snap back to his usual form (a projection on my part). But again, it's a fair point and certainly a position to watch as he enters his age 30 season. Overall, Barksdale has been underrated his entire career and the Chargers' offense has more flexibility when he is in the lineup then when he is not. He isn't a Pro Bowl type but he can be better than average. 

Bracie Smathers said:

Have to ask about the low rating for Cleveland.

I had not seen any rank lower than 17 till this one.

 I posted about the raw talent level last year after losing Joe Thomas to this year after adding Chris Hubbard, Austin Corbett, and Darren Fells and others then see this from Matt Waldman which mentions other factors that bode well relevant to the Browns O-Line.:: 

Just posting the opening tidbit, go to the link for the full read....  >>>

THE BROWNS OFFENSIVE LINE IS BETTER THAN ADVERTISED

Last year the Pittsburgh Steelers O-Line was on a modern record pace having given up only 21 sacks in the first 15 games (1.4 sacks per game) heading into the finale at home against the winless Cleveland Browns who only had 31 sacks heading into the final but the Steelers sat starting QB Ben Reothisberger and starting WR Antonio Brown and started Landy Jones and rookie Ju Ju Smith Shuster.

The Steelers were under constant pressure and gave up 3 sacks.  The difference at QB and WR was evident.

In addition to adding Chris Hubbard and Austin Corbett and others on the O-Line and a stout in-line TE in Darren Fells the Browns should be improved at QB with Tyrod Taylor and at WR with Jarvis Landry.

I have to question the low offensive line rating.

Click to expand...

Sack stats are not included in this model. Completed sacks (taking the QB to the ground with possession, or forcing a fumble) are a narrower measurement than total hits, which are used from time to time in my own research but neither are tracked in the model.

QB hits and sacks are not OL independent.

In other words, they can be a function of how quickly a quarterback gets rid of the ball, whether it's a 5 step drop, how many pass plays are called, etc.

For years people said Peyton Manning's offensive line was awesome with Indy. It was Jeff Saturday and 4 bums but Manning's ability to call not only the plays from the line but the blocking schemes, the hot routes etc made those sack stats artificially low. The same can be said of the Pats' line in the Brady era. On the other end of the spectrum when a guy like Geno Smith gets a start and takes a half dozen sacks it's not because the OL suddenly went to crap. Non Franchise QBs can hold the ball forever, or bail out scrambling into the pass rush, not have a good internal timer etc. 

***

as for the Browns, if we go by sack stats, they are going to be much better. Tyrod Taylor is great at both evading pressure, and getting the football out on time. He also a capable scrambler which will pump up their rushing yards. However this model doesn't include sack stats or rushing yards.

The model grades individuals and it weighs tackles 2x as much as guards. That plus the cohesion of 3.5 (RT swap to LT is a half point deduction, new RT is a full point) hurts their ranking. The good news is they have the potential to be in the low teens if they stay healthy and play well. I like Chris Hubbard by the way. He played awesome last year for PIT in place of Gilbert. He's exactly the type of player who could get a mid-season (or even preseason) upgrade to his individual grade, based on his first time starting. However, even the most die-hard of Browns fans has to admit Shon Coleman at LT is a potential nightmare scenario. Honestly, he wasn't developing all that well at RT.  I know they say he's a natural LT but that's press blah. LT is in fact harder than RT he'll be out on an island against top pass rushers and won't have help from Darren Fells (TE are also not included in the ranks). Taylor will bail him out and that might make it a better offense but it's not because of the line. If he can't do it, Drango time again?  Their interior 3 are extremely solid (despite no Alex Mack level player) but the model doesn't reward building OL from the inside out. 

hope this helps. 

Bri said:

By many accounts, the Titans line did not do well this spring. Too early to read into this but there's a hmmm here

Click to expand...

Several points on TEN

1) it's not really offensive line without pads and hitting. 

2) the Titans' line is going through a transition to a more zone-based scheme. Players like Quinton Spain and Josh Kline might not fit this system (hence the Pampfile and X-SuaFilo signings, both could actually play).

3) Pampfile might have to fill in for Jack Conklin who tore his ACL in the playoffs and might not be ready week 1. That is a big real reason to be concerned about TEN line (but only short-term and Kevin Pampfile is a tough player).

4) overall (and this just is my spicy take, not gospel truth)  the TEN local media has been brutal toward the team's OL to cover up for Mariota's inconsistencies. It's not recent, it's been since the days of Brian Schwenke but the media there has not seemed to accept their line has come a long way since that point. OR maybe they think the picks are bad? Most teams don't have one tackle as good as team captain Taylor Lewan let alone a bookend with Jack Conklin. Most teams don't have a center as good as Ben Jones, who was a fantastic FA pickup.  These players have their best football in front of them.

My theory is that certain beat writers make a habit to bash the TEN line cause it goes down easier than questioning the FQB. Or maybe they'd get their passes revoked.

But objectively Ten the franchise has invested a ton in the OL and should be applauded for that effort. Most of these teams get by on a wing and a prayer. Look at the NY Jets in comparison, they haven't picked an OL in the first round since DBrick and Mangold and they haven't spent any pick on the OL for 2 drafts.  FA Spencer Long was the only FA  acquisition.  TEN may have their issues but relatively speaking they are among a handful of teams at the top of the OL Pyramid looking down at a bunch of mediocre or worse units.

Matt Bitonti said:

QB hits and sacks are not OL independent.

In other words, they can be a function of how quickly a quarterback gets rid of the ball, whether it's a 5 step drop, how many pass plays are called, etc.

For years people said Peyton Manning's offensive line was awesome with Indy. It was Jeff Saturday and 4 bums but Manning's ability to call not only the plays from the line but the blocking schemes, the hot routes etc made those sack stats artificially low. The same can be said of the Pats' line in the Brady era. On the other end of the spectrum when a guy like Geno Smith gets a start and takes a half dozen sacks it's not because the OL suddenly went to crap. Non Franchise QBs can hold the ball forever, or bail out scrambling into the pass rush, not have a good internal timer etc. 

***

... However this model doesn't include sack stats or rushing yards.

The model grades individuals

Click to expand...

Then we get back to the BIG question of O-Line grades and how they would be used, basically how grades based on individual O-Line players affects skill position fantasy players.  

Acknowledging that a great QB can make a terrible O-Line look 'good' would logically cause someone with that knowledge to make the algebraic flip to note that 'really poor' QB play would make an 'average' O-Line look much worse.

Back to the BIG question.

If this model does not include production from skill positions then I'd have to ask how would fantasy players use this model?

I'd like to know how an evaluation of an O-Line can help evaluate a fantasy QB or RB or WR.

Chaka said:

You mention the addition of Chris Hubbard twice, @Bracie Smathers. 

Is there anything to suggest in his four year career that he is anything other than a journeyman replacement level player?

Click to expand...

I think we've covered this before so I'll just post a link to my previous reply and add tweets from a different thread when Hubbard was signed by Cleveland in March underneath.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

6/8/2018 at 11:07 AM, Chaka said  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrea Hangst‏Verified account @FBALL_Andrea 14s15 seconds ago

Don’t be discouraged if Hubbard is an unknown name Browns fans. He’s under-the-radar AND underrated. Deserved this $, starting oppt’y. Should be RT going forward in CLE.

---------------------------

Jacob Klinger‏Verified account @Jacob_Klinger_ 5m5 minutes ago

Jacob Klinger Retweeted Ian Rapoport

Good for him. His teammates knew he was gone and getting paid midseason and they were hype as could be for him. Former UDFA PS guy.

-----------------------------

Andrea Hangst‏Verified account @FBALL_Andrea 9m9 minutes ago

Andrea Hangst Retweeted Ian Rapoport

Oh hell yes. Hubbard is extremely talented and should be a starter in CLE right away.

-------------------------------

Chris Fedor‏Verified account @ChrisFedor 9m9 minutes ago

That’s a lot of money for a dude with 14 starts. However, I like gambling on ascending players whose best ball is still ahead rather than behind. Too many teams pay guys for what they’ve already done rather than what they think they will do.

--------------------------------

Brandon King‏ @BKDaKing2

Replying to @_PeteSmith_

All the educated people in the “know” out of Pittsburgh are raving about Hubbard and how invaluable he is, on and off the field. That and based off of how he played, and only 26, seems like a solid signing for RT considering the inconsistencies of Coleman.

3:24 PM - 13 Mar 2018

Bracie Smathers said:

Then we get back to the BIG question of O-Line grades and how they would be used, basically how grades based on individual O-Line players affects skill position fantasy players.  

Acknowledging that a great QB can make a terrible O-Line look 'good' would logically cause someone with that knowledge to make the algebraic flip to note that 'really poor' QB play would make an 'average' O-Line look much worse.

Back to the BIG question.

If this model does not include production from skill positions then I'd have to ask how would fantasy players use this model?

I'd like to know how an evaluation of an O-Line can help evaluate a fantasy QB or RB or WR.

Click to expand...

This question was asked in a neighboring thread and you gave it the black dot emoji (?) 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/767027-the-good-and-bad-of-offensive-line-rankings/?do=findComment&comment=21138890

 the TL;DR is they can be cross-referenced against Mosqueda's D front matchups to find "Trusts" or "Fades".  It's an article we call "Trench Matchups" co-written each week. 

 fantasy production is about opportunity as much as anything. Zeke getting fed all day behind the #2 line is better than the Eagles splitting carries 5 ways between the #1 line.  I do believe OL rankings can also be useful in a draft setting to break the tie between two similarly ranked players. 

Matt Bitonti said:

This question was asked in a neighboring thread and you gave it the black dot emoji (?) 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/767027-the-good-and-bad-of-offensive-line-rankings/?do=findComment&comment=21138890

 the TL;DR is they can be cross-referenced against Mosqueda's D front matchups to find "Trusts" or "Fades".  It's an article we call "Trench Matchups" co-written each week. 

 fantasy production is about opportunity as much as anything. Zeke getting fed all day behind the #2 line is better than the Eagles splitting carries 5 ways between the #1 line.  I do believe OL rankings can also be useful in a draft setting to break the tie between two similarly ranked players. 

Click to expand...

I did black dot that but it did not show a list of teams graded in descending order but had some data output that could be useful if the data input is accurate.

IOWs, the grades have to be correct as possible or their isn't proper context.

I don't think the Browns have one of the best offensive lines, I think if you put them in proper context of the rest of the 32 other teams in proper context that they are average and would be ranked right about the middle.

I think that a team that has the worst record in NFL history over the past two seasons has an inherent bias that creeps into any grading system.

You are a smart guy, I bet you got good to excellent grades in college but lets say in high school you liked, girls, cars, and partying so you had knowledge of how teachers gave higher grades to students with reputations as excellent scholars even if their work was mediocre on some projects but even if you did the work and applied yourself the teachers would not give you the higher grade you deserved because they lumped you in with the stoner crowd. 

You go to college and you apply yourself and get high marks and your professors don't have any biases against you, they just see straight A's and you note that they begin to give you the benefit of doubt on your work and give you higher marks than you deserve at times when you knew you truly deserved a lower grade.

Lets say that I agree that the Browns O-Line doesn't rate at the top but I do not agree that they should be ranked at the bottom.

Bracie Smathers said:

IOWs, the grades have to be correct as possible or their isn't proper context.

I don't think the Browns have one of the best offensive lines, I think if you put them in proper context of the rest of the 32 other teams in proper context that they are average and would be ranked right about the middle.




2

Click to expand...

The essence of the Browns grade is that Shon Coleman at LT is a huge ???  and Hubbard (although good) has no cohesion with this group.  If Hubbard stabilizes the cohesion grade could push them right about the middle. He's a new addition though and this is how it works for every team who replaces a starter through FA or the draft. 

Rather than engage in inaccurate pop psych I'd rather talk about the left tackle situation which went from Joe Thomas HOF 1st ballot to Coleman/Drango. Shon Coleman didn't look great at RT why is this promotion good news? 

That's the context of 32 other teams, about 30 of them have better starting LT situations.  The model weighs tackles twice as much as guards. 

Matt Bitonti said:

Several points on TEN

1) it's not really offensive line without pads and hitting. 

2) the Titans' line is going through a transition to a more zone-based scheme. Players like Quinton Spain and Josh Kline might not fit this system (hence the Pampfile and X-SuaFilo signings, both could actually play).

3) Pampfile might have to fill in for Jack Conklin who tore his ACL in the playoffs and might not be ready week 1. That is a big real reason to be concerned about TEN line (but only short-term and Kevin Pampfile is a tough player).

4) overall (and this just is my spicy take, not gospel truth)  the TEN local media has been brutal toward the team's OL to cover up for Mariota's inconsistencies. It's not recent, it's been since the days of Brian Schwenke but the media there has not seemed to accept their line has come a long way since that point. OR maybe they think the picks are bad? Most teams don't have one tackle as good as team captain Taylor Lewan let alone a bookend with Jack Conklin. Most teams don't have a center as good as Ben Jones, who was a fantastic FA pickup.  These players have their best football in front of them.

My theory is that certain beat writers make a habit to bash the TEN line cause it goes down easier than questioning the FQB. Or maybe they'd get their passes revoked.

But objectively Ten the franchise has invested a ton in the OL and should be applauded for that effort. Most of these teams get by on a wing and a prayer. Look at the NY Jets in comparison, they haven't picked an OL in the first round since DBrick and Mangold and they haven't spent any pick on the OL for 2 drafts.  FA Spencer Long was the o seenly FA  acquisition.  TEN may have their issues but relatively speaking they are among a handful of teams at the top of the OL Pyramid looking down at a bunch of mediocre or worse units.

Click to expand...

Kelly and Spain have played tackle in Conklin absence. Marz has done well as a baxkup tackle for the third offseason. 

bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

So buffalo oline...lost incognito...cordy glenn and eric wood......pass on mccoy??

Click to expand...

Their explosive passing game should do enough to keep defenses honest and create lanes of McCoy to run. 

I am very excited for the Lions OL. It has a nice mix of veterans and youth- loads of talent and more depth/versatility than we have had in awhile. I think they could surprise some people and up being one of the better units in the league if things break right. 

Bri said:

Kelly and Spain have played tackle in Conklin absence. Marz has done well as a baxkup tackle for the third offseason. 

Click to expand...

Kelly is the swing guy and most likely to get that start if Conklin can't go. 

Pampfile is more of a guard of late but he has started a ton of games at RT.

Spain is in trouble with these coaches, don't shoot the messenger. He's not really a ZBS guy. 

Marz is an interesting taxi squad type but has never officially been on TEN 53 man's roster.  Good name to watch though. 

Ilov80s said:

Their explosive passing game should do enough to keep defenses honest and create lanes of McCoy to run. 

Click to expand...

Since 2013 this is the lowest grade I've had on any OL at this point in the process. IT's not even losing Glenn, who didn't start much it's Incognito and Wood their two best OL and they didn't replace. I like Wyatt Teller btw but 5th round isn't usually immediate help. Someone else can speak on their QB and passing game but purely 5 guys on the OL it's the lowest grade I've calculated in 5 years. Bills fans please don't shoot the messenger. 

Ilov80s said:

I am very excited for the Lions OL. It has a nice mix of veterans and youth- loads of talent and more depth/versatility than we have had in awhile. I think they could surprise some people and up being one of the better units in the league if things break right. 

Click to expand...

Agreed. The Lions line is one of the few where all 5 starters grade out B or better. They don't have any super elite talent and lose a full point of cohesion for the Frank Ragnow swap out at LG/C but if they stay healthy could be top-tier by week 5 or so, once the cohesion grade settles.  

I was joking about the Bills. Their passing game looks atrocious.

QuizGuy66 said:

CincyJungle article on Bengals O-line starting with a clean slate

I am excited about Pollack.

-QG

Click to expand...

I agree.  I am also excited about the possibilities... But the Bengals O-Line situation has to be the most mutated in the NFL this offseason.  Not only did they change line coaches, but four out of five OL positions may have a different starter from opening day 2017.  That said, each of those four positions is volatile.

LT - Glenn - Health?

C - Price - Rookie (and health)

RG - Probably Westerman or Redmond, both of which are all but rookies considering what little game experience they have so far i their careers.

RT - Who knows?  Both Fisher and Ogebuhi have looked like early round busts, but maybe the problem was the line coach.  Alexander's methods may have been great in a prior era, but may not have aged well.  Throw Hart in there as well and you have three players with very poor resumes but maybe enough talent for a reclamation.

Clint Boling at LG is the only stable point on the line.  As a bonus, Eifert's health keeps the TE position in flux as well.

I am optimistic, but I would not be surprised if this line finishes top 5,... or bottom 5... or anywhere in between.

Matt Bitonti said:

Kelly is the swing guy and most likely to get that start if Conklin can't go. 

Pampfile is more of a guard of late but he has started a ton of games at RT.

Spain is in trouble with these coaches, don't shoot the messenger. He's not really a ZBS guy. 

Marz is an interesting taxi squad type but has never officially been on TEN 53 man's roster.  Good name to watch though. 




1

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Both Texans have yet to run with the ones. It is not week one, there is tons of time, but I found that interesting. In shorts, Marz and Kelly must have done better. Spain has been playing both second team tackle spots and was a tackle in college and a summer tackle for Grimm. I only believe he has ever played two snaps at tackle in the regular season. 

Everything is different for the lines when training camp starts and hitting begins. Vrabel discussed how the spring is all about positioning and are they technically sound. He said it amounts to this critique at every position. When Conklin and Lewan each return, the competition gets real thick. No one has a chance at beating out either, so everyone is fighting for three spots.

Spain is odd. Antwaun Woods was a NT who beat out their starting nose every year and always went to the PS and that drove us fans nuts. He was released over some "seriously?" type junk and it took him a day to start on the Cowboys or be listed as a top DT. Back to Spain, he has allowed only around 10 sacks total in three years as a starter in the NFL. He has a sound 4+ average leading the rush in his direction and yet no one let's him lose the UDFA label and be comfy as a starter. He is statistically one of the best Gs and yet no one went after him despite his low RFA tender this offseason. Since the draft, the Giants have had an offer turned down for Spain and ....why didn't they just sign him as an RFA? The Titans draft picks on the OL and DL are more likely to not play the position they were drafted for than to play. Kline has widely been considered their worst linemen and he got a huge deal. It's a pretty confusing two units at times. 

We were all "In Grimm we trust" and he created one of the best lines in the NFL. I strongly believed they would keep Grimm and Lebeau around and am still oh so concerned that this was a grave mistake. Vrabel complimented each and discussed keeping them so if the Titans struggle, reporters will just pull up initial quotes and he'll eat his words. 

I was concerned post-Grimm and it has been about my feelings post-Munchak. I don't know if it's spoiled but we like a HOF coach.

The zone based scheme is not foreign to this group. The Titans ran both a ZBS and a power scheme under Mularkey and called it a hybrid. Per Cosell, their issue is going to be time. LaFleur's offense wants the battle won quick and Mularkey gave them more time. We're talking seconds but still. That's a one sentence explanation of something Greg took ten minutes to explain so please forgive the brevity.

The staff's displeasure with the offensive line this spring yields lots of hmmm. Vrabel and LaFleur have both said a few times that this is not Rams 2.0 and they will still have a power game. They each point out Henry and Vrabel had a fun quote saying Lewan's gotta eat. Lewan is one of the best linemen in the NFL and like it or not, he's gotta get fired up. They probably do have to have some plays here n there where he is allowed to just hit someone and possibly technique is out the window. He has a contagious effect on the offense and the new staff surely knows this already. He has sat, but they have watched every game and practice of the last few years and...let's face it, Lewan is a public figure as far as linemen go. Vrabel has also discussed the linemen being the key to everything and they have to do what suits them. Vrabel said they will be tweaking the offense and defense before camp now that they've spent time with the players. I'm fighting not reading into this.

The Titans line was arguably the best in 2016. In 2017, I would say they were 2nd or 3rd best some weeks and like 20th other weeks. It wasn't a good consistent year like they could have had. The Texans were not an elite line. I think the two new guys needed to get their feet wet. I think they're going home and training and coming back for camp ready to rock- they just needed to up their standards in some ways. 

Derrick Henry is a super special back and for some crazy reason people forget this often. He was the best high school running back ever and it's not close. He won the Heisman. He outrushed the starter that was the third leading back in the NFL the year before. His NFL career has been with a big hook or leash but that's taken off. People said he needed to work on his pass catching and he did so well he lined up as a receiver many times last year. People said he didn't have break away ability yet he literally won two games with 80+ yard runs. His workout routine is insane and reminiscent of Ray Lewis. Somehow "the biggest RB ever" gets bigger every year. He was trained and held to high standards by Barry's former coach and his time is now. We can talk about Lewis and Wadley being cat quick and everything like that but Henry's gonna eat too. There is no way a former FB and LB doesn't appreciate Henry's imposing presence or his ability to dominate a game with his size. We're all stuck at this "but then what" point. The line struggling in the spring adds to this too. We shall see. Camp is going to be a huge learning experience for fans, reporters, and naturally players. 

The Titans have one of the best groups of blocking TEs in the NFL and Mularkey used them on 45-59 percent of the plays during his tenure. The former TE used them too much and it was not good. Still, this staff inherited a great blocking group and the Rams (relative) barely played a TE. The Pats (where Vrabel was "raised") use TEs a ton. There is also some considerable debate on how they will be used and we'll also have to wait and see. Mularkey liked to go mano y mano with them and played Kelly as a TE if he had to. The TEs were the reason the Titans were not dominated by DEs. Before their stellar group, the Titans were oWned by Watt and others. JJ literally smiled and moved up and down the line picking his spots at will. The DLs in the division are exceptional and possibly the best DLs in the NFL. I love Conklin and Lewan but do they need the help against the elite? One more wrinkle thrown in is that Mariota is fragile and the gem of the team. They can't risk him getting injured or their season is done. 

There is too much Rams 2.0 talk and too much not Rams 2.0 talk and very little of what they will actually do. We'll have to wait and I'm getting impatient but what else can we do. It's like every single statement has a polar opposite that makes sense. Vrabel is hardly open to the press nor is his staff. It's been one grrr offseason to make sense of it all.

I'm surprised that the Seahawks are ranking in the top half/middle third.

Matt Bitonti said:

LT: Duane Brown, Jamarco Jones
LG: Ethan Pocic, Rees Odhiambo
C: Justin Britt, Joey Hunt
RG: D.J. Fluker
RT: Germain Ifedi, George Fant

Click to expand...

Certainly, Duane Brown upgraded the OL last season. Expect improvements from 2nd round pick Pocic and late 1st rounder Ifedi as they work into their 2nd and 3rd years. I think the addition of Solari could reap huge rewards as several veterans have suggested that his style is differentiated from Cable's by his attention to the detail of individual technique.

Can you show the breakdown of the Seahawks OL? Any comment on Jordan Roos? The coaching staff, esp Carroll, seemed to have a secret little crush on him last year, and he's built in the mode of DJ Fluker.

xrayveggin said:

I'm surprised that the Seahawks are ranking in the top half/middle third.

Certainly, Duane Brown upgraded the OL last season. Expect improvements from 2nd round pick Pocic and late 1st rounder Ifedi as they work into their 2nd and 3rd years. I think the addition of Solari could reap huge rewards as several veterans have suggested that his style is differentiated from Cable's by his attention to the detail of individual technique.

Can you show the breakdown of the Seahawks OL? Any comment on Jordan Roos? The coaching staff, esp Carroll, seemed to have a secret little crush on him last year, and he's built in the mode of DJ Fluker.

Click to expand...

The Seattle breakdown is below. Not in the graphic is the return of George Fant who can either displace Ifedi at RT or be the best swing tackle in the league. 

Solari is an upgrade in the ranks but only marginally. The real improvement will be when the cohesion grade rises to 5 (its currently 4, a full point deduction for the DJ Fluker swap out). Cable swapped these guys around tough to build any trust. 

Jordan Roos I am only familiar with due to his KOR wedge duties.  Cable used to love UDFA guys it's not clear how Solari feels about it. bringing on Fluker makes it tougher for him to actually get a starting gig with Seattle. Maybe he factors into the Pocic/Odhiambo mix at backup guard or maybe as a backup to Britt at C  but could also be a camp casualty.

PFF 2018 Team OL Rankings

Borden said:

PFF 2018 Team OL Rankings

Click to expand...

Some thoughts 

Pats line is much better than the general perception. I think this plays itself in several aspects:
1. Michel and Burkhead could be very productive when you factor in red zone rush attempts
2. Gronk will be free to run more routes and not be required to stay in a block as much as he has in the past. Edleman's injury also boosts his prospects.

I think the rankings for rookies are flawed because they use the players' college grades

Bengals still haven't solved their line deficiencies, but they should be better than last year.

Indy line is also much better than public perception, and is Nelson proves to be as advertised then they could finish in the top third of the league. 

Borden said:

PFF 2018 Team OL Rankings

Click to expand...

Some rough grades of the Vikings offensive linemen mostly below 50 but surprisingly Remmers being the highest graded one even though he is playing a new position.

They have the Vikings in the bottom 5 for offensive lines overall, just after the Cardinals who I have recently been hearing will be terrible. PFF mentions that Keenum was the 3rd most pressured QB last season. Kirk Cousins throws more interceptions when pressured.

Too bad the Vikings don't have a highly graded rookie to make those graphs look a bit better. At least they are all low so no one stands out.

No wonder why ZImmer hates these guys.