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Offensive Lines (1 Viewer)

32 Counter Pass said:
Some thoughts 

Pats line is much better than the general perception. I think this plays itself in several aspects:
1. Michel and Burkhead could be very productive when you factor in red zone rush attempts
2. Gronk will be free to run more routes and not be required to stay in a block as much as he has in the past. Edleman's injury also boosts his prospects.

I think the rankings for rookies are flawed because they use the players' college grades

Bengals still haven't solved their line deficiencies, but they should be better than last year.

Indy line is also much better than public perception, and is Nelson proves to be as advertised then they could finish in the top third of the league. 
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I’m not sure what you’re referencing with the rookie rankings. The college grade, which is clearly noted beside their name, is just a point of reference. 

I agree with you on the Colts. Unfortunately, Nelson, Kelly and Mewhort are more potential than truly proven assets but the veterans of that trio also need to stay healthy. But if they can stay healthy and play to their potential I think Indy could have a top 10 OL. 

The Pats OL I think is one of the least important. Their excellent play calling and scheme combined with Brady’s release time and understanding of the game can really mask a lot of inefficiencies. 

The Bengals FF options to me are distinct enough that unless I hear their top 5 or maybe top 3, no one is moving in my FF rankings. ***I’m guessing no one cares about an opinion like this but I had a response for everything else so I figured I’d throw in my 2 cents here. 

 
Biabreakable said:
Some rough grades of the Vikings offensive linemen mostly below 50 but surprisingly Remmers being the highest graded one even though he is playing a new position.

They have the Vikings in the bottom 5 for offensive lines overall, just after the Cardinals who I have recently been hearing will be terrible. PFF mentions that Keenum was the 3rd most pressured QB last season. Kirk Cousins throws more interceptions when pressured.

Too bad the Vikings don't have a highly graded rookie to make those graphs look a bit better. At least they are all low so no one stands out.

No wonder why ZImmer hates these guys.  :)
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I would like to see what their stats were with Dalvin. You and I talked about them switching blocking schemes last after the draft. I wonder how much A) the switch caused issues and B) not having Cooks skill set for that scheme available. 

Scheme and player cohesion, synergy, whatever is something that I believe PFF misses on. They might right that a player had a negative play but that’s a bit unfair because the teams plan was thrown of and the OL is basically playing out of position. They address this in QBs but it hasn’t made its way to OL yet. Something along the lines of “Newton couldn’t play in Brady offense but Brady couldn’t play in a Newton offense.” I made that up but you get the point.

 
Borden said:
I’m not sure what you’re referencing with the rookie rankings. The college grade, which is clearly noted beside their name, is just a point of reference. 

I agree with you on the Colts. Unfortunately, Nelson, Kelly and Mewhort are more potential than truly proven assets but the veterans of that trio also need to stay healthy. But if they can stay healthy and play to their potential I think Indy could have a top 10 OL. 

The Pats OL I think is one of the least important. Their excellent play calling and scheme combined with Brady’s release time and understanding of the game can really mask a lot of inefficiencies. 

The Bengals FF options to me are distinct enough that unless I hear their top 5 or maybe top 3, no one is moving in my FF rankings. ***I’m guessing no one cares about an opinion like this but I had a response for everything else so I figured I’d throw in my 2 cents here. 
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My point regarding the college grade is that metric is flawed when trying to project their NFL success. I asume they add the total individual geades to arrive at the rankings. For  instance, Kolton Miller has a grade of 87.5 (college grade). The only other RT with a higher grade is McGlinchet (another rookie). Neither has played a down yet they have the highest RT grade. Feels like a very big assumption.

I find the pats grade interesting in terms of projecting usage. In the past Gronk was asked to block more to cover deficiencies. The grade also suggests they have the ability to lean more in the run game, possibly extending Brady’s career. It also runs against the perception that the Pats oline is weak because of the loss of Solder.

I agree that the Bengals grade doesn’t change my rankings, but I think the perception is that they have made big strides in upgrading their line so Mixon should be in line for a big year.

 
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Borden said:
I would like to see what their stats were with Dalvin. You and I talked about them switching blocking schemes last after the draft. I wonder how much A) the switch caused issues and B) not having Cooks skill set for that scheme available. 

Scheme and player cohesion, synergy, whatever is something that I believe PFF misses on. They might right that a player had a negative play but that’s a bit unfair because the teams plan was thrown of and the OL is basically playing out of position. They address this in QBs but it hasn’t made its way to OL yet. Something along the lines of “Newton couldn’t play in Brady offense but Brady couldn’t play in a Newton offense.” I made that up but you get the point.
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Yeah. I suppose that would be interesting to see how the Vikings offensive linemen graded after their first 4 games compared to the rest of the season.

I seem to recall something around week 5 or so last year that was showing the Vikings offensive line being top 10 or top 5 or something early on, might have been PFF maybe something else I don't recall. This was before starters got injured such as Remmers concussion against the Browns that took him several weeks to recover from as well as some back problems IIRC. By the time Remmers did return to the lineup it was at left guard not right tackle, as Nick Easton was hurt by then. Remmers never returned to the right tackle position, they decided it was best to keep Hill there and that looks to be their plan A for this season as well right now. I think it is very unlikely that Brian O'Neil will be ready to start, maybe towards the end of the season if he practices well. Anything before then would be ahead of schedule.

I do think there is something to synergy of the players, certain players will fit the offensive lines best plays better than others will.

I don't think the Vikings changed their plans much after Cook was injured, but I also don't think McKinnon or Murray played as well within the scheme as Dalvin Cook did.

 
Matt Bitonti said:
the rankings article is up for subscribers 

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=2018-offensive-lines-preseason-training-camp
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Was gonna post a quickie Bengals update.

Bengals had their mock game on Saturday and FWIW Hopkins and Bobby Hart :unsure: lined up with the ones.  But the competition for both right side spots is still seen as wide open.  FBG projects Fisher at RT and it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up being the case.

One issue that has cropped up has been Price snapping the ball.  Basically he came from a shot gun system at Ohio State so had virtually no experience snapping the ball with the QB right under center.  In the mock game he had a few bad snaps (at least one with all 3 QBs that played).  Still early and correctable but if it carries through the preseason it is at least conceivable that he starts the year on the bench - though the coaching staff is being patient with him and he's still getting pretty much all the work with the ones.  Hopkins actually did have a few snaps at center which is new.  No big change expected but something to monitor.  The left side has been solid - nothing to report there.  They signed OL Cory Helms who was cut by the Saints as an UDFA. 

I do think it'll take time for the right side situation to shake out.

-QG

 
Titans line update-

Lewan awesome. Kelly has stepped up and looks like the veteran backup he has been. Spain has done ok. Jones and Kline have not.

Marz has done well as Lewan's backup and seems to be the backup tackle. He also plays RT and G but not so good as a guard.

Pamphile was outplayed and is now inside. He played well as 2nd string LG but not so good at RG. He and Spain are sharing backup tackle spot at times but neither is expected to play it anymore. Pamphile should switch to RG soon and be forced to adjust. Casey is awesome but he's gotta learn to deal with him.

Filo has been awful with Casey and pulled quite often. I think he'd be cut if we were on the old cut schedule.

Kline is doing better as a backup C than Jones and better than himself at RG. 

Casey has been there every year. He can't be an excuse nor can Daquan playing the nose well. 

I still think Kelly could move inside when Conklin returns. Marz' improvement helps. Pamphile has T experience and I bet if he shows enough at G they will let him bounce out again. There is a free for all for that RG spot. Things should settle down and materialize after. Vrabel still likes Filo and has not at all given up on him.

It gets confusing when you think good luck stopping Casey but Carter and Vrabel gotta motivate them and get it done somehow. 

 
The Titans seem to have switched to using a TE in motion and having him smash the DL with the linemen. It's done real real well the last two days and appears to have fixed their OL issues. They used to have the top FB in football but curiously released him last year and it was a whole stinkfest of a move. Anyway, a lot of very good reports now for two days. Maybe those big fellas needed a jolt from a FB and the TE providing that gets it done too. IDK. We'll have to wait and see. The only thing clear is something clicked and the staff seems pleased and it's almost all they practiced for two days. Since you can't genuinely expect offensive success without OL success, we can't read into any offensive changes. There could be a ton of reasons to run this set for two days. There could be a major change here, could not. Gotta sit on this and let it brew before leaping

 
Bri said:
The Titans seem to have switched to using a TE in motion and having him smash the DL with the linemen. It's done real real well the last two days and appears to have fixed their OL issues. They used to have the top FB in football but curiously released him last year and it was a whole stinkfest of a move. Anyway, a lot of very good reports now for two days. Maybe those big fellas needed a jolt from a FB and the TE providing that gets it done too. IDK. We'll have to wait and see. The only thing clear is something clicked and the staff seems pleased and it's almost all they practiced for two days. Since you can't genuinely expect offensive success without OL success, we can't read into any offensive changes. There could be a ton of reasons to run this set for two days. There could be a major change here, could not. Gotta sit on this and let it brew before leaping
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Do you think blocking ability will be weighted more heavily now than in the past in terms of snap % from the TE group?

 
QuizGuy66 said:
quick update.  

First Bengals depth chart has Price at center with Hopkins and Hart :unsure: on the right side.

-QG
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Bobby Hart winning the RT job from Jake Fisher isn't good news for the front office but could be good news for the line. Hart is an underrated player and more of a prototypical RT than Fisher (335 vs 310). Hart played hurt last season and his season fell apart but his form from a couple seasons ago was promising. He's still only 23. 

 
Matt Bitonti said:
Bobby Hart winning the RT job from Jake Fisher isn't good news for the front office but could be good news for the line. Hart is an underrated player and more of a prototypical RT than Fisher (335 vs 310). Hart played hurt last season and his season fell apart but his form from a couple seasons ago was promising. He's still only 23. 
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Well the front office ain't getting fired from the family business.  I hope you're right.  Certainly wouldn't be the first reclamation project that works out for us.

I live in NJ so some of my negativity is from his time with the Giants and seeing how that fan base feels about him (and how bad that line was last year)

-QG

 
Hey Matt Bitonti, I know that most teams run multiple schemes, but can you please list the primary blocking styles for teams? ( ie. power, man or inside/ outside zone blocking) Thank you!

 
Raiders said:
Hey Matt Bitonti, I know that most teams run multiple schemes, but can you please list the primary blocking styles for teams? ( ie. power, man or inside/ outside zone blocking) Thank you!
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this is a great idea, i'll take some notes during preseason week 1 games and see what sort of differentiation can be made.  I suspect everyone tries to run everything. 32 entries of "Hybrid" wouldn't be that exciting. 

 
QuizGuy66 said:
Well the front office ain't getting fired from the family business.  I hope you're right.  Certainly wouldn't be the first reclamation project that works out for us.

I live in NJ so some of my negativity is from his time with the Giants and seeing how that fan base feels about him (and how bad that line was last year)

-QG
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Bobby Hart got railroaded by the Giants' local media after his tweet war with Geoff Schwartz, who called Hart a locker room cancer. It might be overstating the severity but as you say reclamation projects seem to have support system in Cinci. 

looking at the Bengals' depth chart, Fisher listed as backup LT, Ogbuehi as backup RT. That's where they probably should have been the whole time. 

 
BoltBacker said:
Do you think blocking ability will be weighted more heavily now than in the past in terms of snap % from the TE group?
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I don't know. Too new. 

Delanie is a fine blocker. This is very much wait and see. We can guess roles from the preseason offense. 

 
Matt Bitonti said:
Bobby Hart got railroaded by the Giants' local media after his tweet war with Geoff Schwartz, who called Hart a locker room cancer. It might be overstating the severity but as you say reclamation projects seem to have support system in Cinci. 

looking at the Bengals' depth chart, Fisher listed as backup LT, Ogbuehi as backup RT. That's where they probably should have been the whole time. 
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the one bit of good news perhaps buried in it is that Pollack will do as he sees fit given that he is a fresh set of eyes.

Will be the most interesting battle of preseason along with RG.

Is Hart more suited to a zone-blocking scheme?  The switch to Pollack would indicate we are going that way away from a power-blocking scheme.  (Random reminder that the opposite would seem likely in Dallas who got our old OL coach).

-QG

 
QuizGuy66 said:
the one bit of good news perhaps buried in it is that Pollack will do as he sees fit given that he is a fresh set of eyes.

Will be the most interesting battle of preseason along with RG.

Is Hart more suited to a zone-blocking scheme?  The switch to Pollack would indicate we are going that way away from a power-blocking scheme.  (Random reminder that the opposite would seem likely in Dallas who got our old OL coach).

-QG
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Hart is not particularly athletic getting to the 2nd level in the way that say Brian O'Neill fits the zone scheme. That being said Bengals.com lists Hart at 316 (down from his 330) and he's been doing fine in practice. Cordy Glenn at LT might actually be the bigger concern than RT. 

https://twitter.com/John__Sheeran/status/1026555925019209729

https://twitter.com/John__Sheeran/status/1026568772050722819

 
For the Vikings Pat Elflien still is on PUP although I believe he is still expected to be ready for the regular season and to start at Center. I listened to an interview with him recently and while he kept saying positive things just reading his face, I did not really believe him.

Mike Remmers has some sort of ankle injury and he isn't practicing at tackle or guard right now. Not really expected to return for the preseason, but hopefully he is ready be the time the regular season starts.

Now Nick Easton has a back injury that he is getting a second opinion on (must not have liked the first doctors prognosis) he was supposed to start at guard and had been starting at center with Elflein out.

So when the Vikings play the Broncos on Saturday they will be playing without the 3 projected starters in the middle of the line.

@Matt Bitonti I wonder what you think about the continuity issue for the Vikings offensive line with right now 3 starters not being able to practice with a new QB and a new offensive coordinator?

 
I cannot see the Bengals game but what I'm seeing on social media sounds like the right side of the line...ain't been so good.

-QG

 
Again - won't get to see the Bengals game until like Saturday (it's way down the NFL Network replay rotation and on at like 4am Saturday) but from what I can gather (and the few clips I've seen) - the first team offense generally played well (better in pass protection than run) thought the right side did have some struggles.  The backup tackles (Fisher and Ogbuehi) apparently were really bad, especially Ogbuehi.  It's only one game but I would probably consider Hart the favorite at this point.

Good commentary on the cincyjungle game thread - credit to Zach2305 from there:  "I'm Strictly Watching The line in live action. Left side is looking like we all hoped, real solid. Price is holding his own and had a really nice push on that long Gio run. Hopkins is looking overwhelmed on 4/5 plays and Hart has been so so. Got beat on an inside move early but nothing blatantly terrible"

Other reviews on Hopkins also were unflattering.  Possible that Westerman gets a shot at RG before this is over.

First team offense played well and moved the ball.  While it is just the first preseason game I'll note that last year the 1's looked bad in preseason and it carried all through the year so I'll hold out some hope.

-QG

 
QuizGuy66 said:
First team offense played well and moved the ball.  While it is just the first preseason game I'll note that last year the 1's looked bad in preseason and it carried all through the year so I'll hold out some hope.

-QG




 
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just finished watching the game and agree on most observations. I can't give away all my training camp report content but interesting the first team oL was left in the game even after Dalton left the game. They just need to gel. also agree RG Is probably the weak spot but if they can find a lineup and stick with it they can climb the ranks quickly.  

 
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