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Why Schools? (1 Viewer)

glvsav37

glvsav37

Footballguy
another incident in Indianapolis this am. 

Gun control debate or not...I have to ask ther question....why schools? There are countless other softer targets around if people want to do damage. And yes, its seems the majority of these incidents are done by students of the particular school so it makes sense that the target is familiar with the location, has prior history or something happened there, etc. 

but are we missing something bigger here? why is this confined to schools...or is that all we are hearing about? Last 'mass shooting' I saw on the news that was not at a school was the movie theater shooting in Colorado (I think it was?).  Vegas Concert

What is the link between schools and shooters? 

(trying to keep this politics free.... I hope) 

 
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Fairly simple.

They can predict when and where their targets will be.  

Confined spaces, known layout.

 
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glvsav37 said:
anther incident in Indianapolis this am. 

Gun control debate or not...I have to ask ther question....why schools? There are countless other softer targets around if people want to do damage. And yes, its seems the majority of these incidents are done by students of the particular school so it makes sense that the target is familiar with the location, has prior history or something happened there, etc. 

but are we missing something bigger here? why is this confined to schools...or is that all we are hearing about? Last 'mass shooting' I saw on the news was the movie theater shooting in Colorado (I think it was?). 

What is the link between schools and shooters? 

(trying to keep this politics free.... I hope) 
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Vegas, man. That was a mass shooting. 

I'm keeping it politics free, too, but there are lots of shootings.  

 
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glvsav37 said:
anther incident in Indianapolis this am. 

Gun control debate or not...I have to ask ther question....why schools? There are countless other softer targets around if people want to do damage. And yes, its seems the majority of these incidents are done by students of the particular school so it makes sense that the target is familiar with the location, has prior history or something happened there, etc. 

but are we missing something bigger here? why is this confined to schools...or is that all we are hearing about? Last 'mass shooting' I saw on the news that was not at a school was the movie theater shooting in Colorado (I think it was?). 

What is the link between schools and shooters? 

(trying to keep this politics free.... I hope) 
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kids be angry

 
Few theories:

1. Specific targets - you mentioned this, but I think it's true. Most shootings are done by a kid inside the school with an initial target plus additional victims.

2. Coverage - there have been some office shootings, but schools get much more coverage. Vegas is practically forgotten already...

 
It's not confined to schools...night clubs, music venues, workplace...we've seen several other places besides schools.  But when students are the shooters, the school is the natural setting.  The real question is why are these kids ending up in the state of mind to carry out such atrocities 

 
Galileo said:
It's not confined to schools...night clubs, music venues, workplace...we've seen several other places besides schools.  But when students are the shooters, the school is the natural setting.  The real question is why are these kids ending up in the state of mind to carry out such atrocities 
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I guess thats my real question

 
I am amazed by this as well particularly because every single gun owner claims to be a deeply responsible person who and keeps their guns locked safely away from thieves and children. Even more confounding is that these killings happen despite all of the strong gun laws that are constantly enforced by well staffed, supported and prepared local, state and federal agencies.

I'm flummoxed. Flummoxed, I tell you!

 
glvsav37 said:
so are malls by me. but its rare that a random adult walks in and stats shooting. its mainly a student 
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Coupled with familiarity. The Vegas shooter knew his hotel very well over a period of time. Basically felt very safe accomplishing what there twisted mind wanted to accomplish.  These kids know their schools better than most anything and they know there is very little resistance to do what they set out to do. 

 
glvsav37 said:
so are malls by me. but its rare that a random adult walks in and stats shooting.
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In the mall there are not pockets of 20-40 people that are in a small space with a single door that readily closes.  

What other place than a school has hundred or thousands of people in spaces with a lot of bottlenecks on a schedule you can predict?   Maybe your could argue a church -- and that was done in SC a few years ago.  

 
AhrnCityPahnder said:
In the mall there are not pockets of 20-40 people that are in a small space with a single door that readily closes.  

What other place than a school has hundred or thousands of people in spaces with a lot of bottlenecks on a schedule you can predict?   Maybe your could argue a church -- and that was done in SC a few years ago.  
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disagree....ever walk into one of the smaller stores in a mall? crammed wall to wall with tables and displays and mainly completely closed on 3 sides. (you can rarely see the stock room door in these places.  A shooter can stand at the entrance and pick off people easily. 

 
comfortably numb said:
Im surprised this is a question.

Isnt the answer that the shooters are aiming their agression towards those that have angered them the most?

Whether bullied at school, hating god or blacks at a church etc.
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I've brought this up in other individual school shooting threads and been shot down by numerous posters saying it is "victim blaming," "straw man comment," and "we were all bullied at some time an never shot up a school."

 
RokNRole said:
I think it’s because that is where the people they want to kill are.
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so what is causing people/students to WANT to kill now a days? 

this s the bigger question IMO. Why is no one asking this?

 
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glvsav37 said:
so what is causing people to WANT to kill now a days? 
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Nothing out of the ordinary is causing people to want to kill their enemies. That’s completely normal.

People are acting on it more frequently because they have lost hope under the weight of societal pressures.

“You only have power over people as long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power—he's free again”

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

All too easy for people to just say the shooters are crazy. Nobody thinks about what is making these people crazy.

 
glvsav37 said:
I've brought this up in other individual school shooting threads and been shot down by numerous posters saying it is "victim blaming," "straw man comment," and "we were all bullied at some time an never shot up a school."
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I’d bet the people that use those arguement are sociopaths themselves.

 
glvsav37 said:
I've brought this up in other individual school shooting threads and been shot down by numerous posters saying it is "victim blaming," "straw man comment," and "we were all bullied at some time an never shot up a school."
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Totally have experienced this as well.  It confuses me that trying to get to a root cause to figure out a way to stop these and many people pull the victim blaming card.  There is no blame going on.  It is a logical discussion to find a root cause.  Don't dismiss it so quickly as a possible cause.

 
At that age, outside of the home, School is the biggest part of their life.  It is where most of a teenagers stress comes directly from whether it's academically or socially.  There are a lot of people out there who never find a place to fit in and would say that high school was one of the most miserable parts of their lives.  Most of these people don't pick up guns to get revenge because of it.  You see the suicides and people are all willing to talk about how everyone was horrible to them and should be held accountable, but when instead of suicide, someone wants to get revenge it becomes all their fault in the public opinion.  You can never excuse the actions of these shootings, but there are often underlying reasons beyond just "mental health".

 
The Tick said:
At that age, outside of the home, School is the biggest part of their life.  It is where most of a teenagers stress comes directly from whether it's academically or socially.  There are a lot of people out there who never find a place to fit in and would say that high school was one of the most miserable parts of their lives.  Most of these people don't pick up guns to get revenge because of it.  You see the suicides and people are all willing to talk about how everyone was horrible to them and should be held accountable, but when instead of suicide, someone wants to get revenge it becomes all their fault in the public opinion.  You can never excuse the actions of these shootings, but there are often underlying reasons beyond just "mental health".
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nicely put! 

I've brought up student susicides before and i agree....they are "tragic situations" when it happens, but in the end the final solution decision has been made. One just ends the life of one soul, the other takes a few kids with them. But as you put it, people look at both outcomes differently when IMO they shouldn't. 

 
glvsav37 said:
I've brought this up in other individual school shooting threads and been shot down by numerous posters saying it is "victim blaming," "straw man comment," and "we were all bullied at some time an never shot up a school."
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Really?

I have a hard time believing people wouldnt think bullying isnt some part of it.

That and we love our guns here making them extremly accessible in our culture. 

Throw in the whole copycat thing and its just a rinse repeat cycle of life in the US

 
RokNRole said:
Nothing out of the ordinary is causing people to want to kill their enemies. That’s completely normal.

People are acting on it more frequently because they have lost hope under the weight of societal pressures.

“You only have power over people as long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power—he's free again”

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

All too easy for people to just say the shooters are crazy. Nobody thinks about what is making these people crazy.
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Horrible comments. Wanting to kill someone is normal to you? Kids have lost hope because of societal pressures?? Boo freaking hoo. If you go into a school and shoot it up and kill people, you're an evil piece of crap. This girl rejected me, boo hoo where is my mommy. Alot of the parents of these psychos are just as bad & are partly to blame. Try listening to some of them when they talk, sheesh. Hopefully this most recent trash bag never sees the light of day.

 
glvsav37 said:
so what is causing people/students to WANT to kill now a days? 

this s the bigger question IMO. Why is no one asking this?
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What do you mean "now a days"

There has not been an influx in shootings at schools recently. It's the fact with the internet, everyone hears about them. Where it used to be a local or state news item, it has become a national news item. 

Yeah, school and mass shootings sucks, but they are not happening any more then they used too, and they are still very rare in the great scheme of things. 

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

 
Kids used to commit suicide.  Now they take out ten or so others in the process. Even when they don't kill themselves, it's essentially a suicide since they know they will be caught and never see the outside world again. 

In decades past when a kid actually did kill people it was typically their family.  Now it's the school.

It happens at schools mostly because it's been highly publicized ever since Columbine.  The killers there wrote the script and others have followed. 

 
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glvsav37 said:
Galileo said:
It's not confined to schools...night clubs, music venues, workplace...we've seen several other places besides schools.  But when students are the shooters, the school is the natural setting.  The real question is why are these kids ending up in the state of mind to carry out such atrocities 
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I guess thats my real question
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It's our gun loving culture.  People are all too comfortable with guns.  They are everywhere and there is minimal messaging around the realities/responsibilities of gun ownership.  The first part is an education problem.  The second part is a regulation problem.

 
There's something definitely going on with the bullying culture at the schools as well. Parents are doing a terrible job raising their kids. There's a lot of evil little monsters out there, boys and girls, who are constantly picking and pushing their peers buttons. It really pisses me off.

 
The Commish said:
It's our gun loving culture.  People are all too comfortable with guns.  They are everywhere and there is minimal messaging around the realities/responsibilities of gun ownership.  The first part is an education problem.  The second part is a regulation problem.
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Hmm, you would think this would be a more common occurance in the backwoods then in suburban america if it's about gun loving culture. No regulation other than complete banning of all guns is going to stop these types of shootings from happening. Not going to happen.

1. Parents need to educate themselves and their children on guns

2. Parents need to know what their children are feeling and doing. (Half of this damn country, parents are too busy with their phones, work, or social status among their friends to know what the hell is going on in their kids lives.)

3. People need to quit coddling other people and take mental and disturbed actions seriously before more dangerous events happen.

 
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The Commish said:
It's our gun loving culture.  People are all too comfortable with guns.  They are everywhere and there is minimal messaging around the realities/responsibilities of gun ownership.  The first part is an education problem.  The second part is a regulation problem.
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The gun culture may provide an accessible means, but it is not the reason kids are reaching the mental state of mind where they decide a gun will be the solution..  There are some complex issues at play involving many facets of life... academic stress, social interactions, bullying, parental pressure, self imposed pressure, economics, broken family dynamics, drugs, bleak outlook/lack of hope for future...its a hell of a cocktail that is different for everybody and it effects people in different ways.  The gun culture is just another ingredient in this mix, but it is the one that manifests itself in the most obvious way.  I see kids mentally and emotionally breaking down on a regular basis, much more so than 10 or 20 years ago.  Go talk to your local high school counselors for 10 minutes and your jaw would probably be on the floor with what they deal with regularly.  There is so much more to this puzzle than guns.  Not everyone of these kids are reaching for guns to deal with their problems, but clearly when they do, it has a tremendous impact.  If you could wave a magic wand and eliminate all guns, we would still have way too many mentally and emotionally troubled individuals.  Gun violence is not the root cause of these problems, it is a symptom.  Sure, we can treat the symptom, that is not a bad thing to do, but we are kidding ourselves if we focus on guns as the place for a cure.

 
Schools are where most of these people had their worst experiences.  That and it is the biggest impact in the community.  

Serial killers go for hookers.

School shooters go for the biggest FU to society they can think of.

 
cap'n grunge said:
There's something definitely going on with the bullying culture at the schools as well. Parents are doing a terrible job raising their kids. There's a lot of evil little monsters out there, boys and girls, who are constantly picking and pushing their peers buttons. It really pisses me off.
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Go talk to some teachers.  They can't do any sort of discipline these days.  If they try to , even something small by kicking a kid out of class, they are reprimanded by their bosses.  

As for bullying?  They are teaching kids (poory I might add) how to deal with it and doing nothing about the actual bullying.  Got that one backwards.  

 
Galileo said:
The Commish said:
It's our gun loving culture.  People are all too comfortable with guns.  They are everywhere and there is minimal messaging around the realities/responsibilities of gun ownership.  The first part is an education problem.  The second part is a regulation problem.
Click to expand...
The gun culture may provide an accessible means, but it is not the reason kids are reaching the mental state of mind where they decide a gun will be the solution..  There are some complex issues at play involving many facets of life... academic stress, social interactions, bullying, parental pressure, self imposed pressure, economics, broken family dynamics, drugs, bleak outlook/lack of hope for future...its a hell of a cocktail that is different for everybody and it effects people in different ways.  The gun culture is just another ingredient in this mix, but it is the one that manifests itself in the most obvious way.  I see kids mentally and emotionally breaking down on a regular basis, much more so than 10 or 20 years ago.  Go talk to your local high school counselors for 10 minutes and your jaw would probably be on the floor with what they deal with regularly.  There is so much more to this puzzle than guns.  Not everyone of these kids are reaching for guns to deal with their problems, but clearly when they do, it has a tremendous impact.  If you could wave a magic wand and eliminate all guns, we would still have way too many mentally and emotionally troubled individuals.  Gun violence is not the root cause of these problems, it is a symptom.  Sure, we can treat the symptom, that is not a bad thing to do, but we are kidding ourselves if we focus on guns as the place for a cure.
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I think I might have done a poor job of explaining what I mean.  The question was essentially "what changed mentally in these kids that they now turn to guns?"  Correct?  I don't think anything's changed.  Prior to moving to FL I was heavily involved in my local schools as well as an organization that worked to give people the tools to get out of poverty.  For the most part the things kids were dealing with were very similar to what we dealt with, only A LOT more "isolation/loneliness".  Now, when I was a kid, like it or not, isolation was not an issue.  We were forced to be around each other.  We couldn't hide behind technology.  We had to deal with others.  We were forced to learn social norms.  Kids today don't have to do that.  There are more places to hide now than ever before.

All that said, when I talked about gun culture, I am talking about a new "norm/method" that's been introduced over that same period of time.  The socialization of guns and them becoming a relatively Laissez-faire part of our culture.  It's absolutely true that when I was a kid, well had different kinds of guns around.  However, they weren't glorified like they are today.  They weren't presented as toys.  They weren't presented as solutions to problems.  They were tools of utility to be used under specific adult supervision and there were big consequences should we be caught with them.  They weren't laying around the house.  They weren't "necessary" to feel safe/secure.

We've done a complete 180 on the attitude towards guns in this country.  So while I agree that gun culture isn't THE problem and I understand it's one of several.  It's a pretty large one and I think we can trace most of our issues back to that change.  Of course, I believe technology is also to blame for the reasons I stated above.  It allows us to hide.  It allows us to avoid working through issues.  It allows us to ignore, ignore, ignore until it's too late.  It also allows us to bully FAR easier than ever before.  These two things are 1A and 1B for why I think we see more and more kids in such a desperate state and turning to guns when they reach their breaking point.

 
omahawildcat25 said:
What do you mean "now a days"

There has not been an influx in shootings at schools recently. It's the fact with the internet, everyone hears about them. Where it used to be a local or state news item, it has become a national news item. 

Yeah, school and mass shootings sucks, but they are not happening any more then they used too, and they are still very rare in the great scheme of things. 

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/
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This is a good point. Despite these horrible incidents, most kids are very safe in school and feel very comfortable there. For many, there is nowhere better for them. We have free food, we give them lots of attention, their social group is there, any problem they have will be addressed by any number of educated caring adults. That’s part of what makes the shootings so troubling: They are puncturing our wonderful little community. 

 
worrierking said:
Kids used to commit suicide.  Now they take out ten or so others in the process. Even when they don't kill themselves, it's essentially a suicide since they know they will be caught and never see the outside world again. 

In decades past when a kid actually did kill people it was typically their family.  Now it's the school.

It happens at schools mostly because it's been highly publicized ever since Columbine.  The killers there wrote the script and others have followed. 
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Kids still commit suicide at a much higher rate than shooting their school up. It’s not close. I agree completely that the publicity of the events plays a huge role in the events repeating. Kids are prone to copying and now we have established school shooting as a possible path for someone. The Columbine killers have become cult heroes for some teens and our current crop are  getting radicalized on the internet. 

cap'n grunge said:
There's something definitely going on with the bullying culture at the schools as well. Parents are doing a terrible job raising their kids. There's a lot of evil little monsters out there, boys and girls, who are constantly picking and pushing their peers buttons. It really pisses me off.
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Bullying will never go away but based on my experiences as a teacher and student, there is much mess bullying now than there was 25 years ago. This crop of kids are very nice. Again this is just my experience in my school, but the kids I work with are wonderful people and I truly do love spending time with them. 

ghostguy123 said:
Go talk to some teachers.  They can't do any sort of discipline these days.  If they try to , even something small by kicking a kid out of class, they are reprimanded by their bosses.  

As for bullying?  They are teaching kids (poory I might add) how to deal with it and doing nothing about the actual bullying.  Got that one backwards.  
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Again just speaking to my experience, but there is no issue with school discipline. The only real behavior problems I have stem from kids being addicted to their phones or being lazy. I’ve never been reprimanded for how I’ve disciplined a kid. The administration is very supportive of the teaching process. As for bulllying, we are doing more in the last 10 years to help kids try to deal with these issues than ever before. These things used to just be ignored. 

These shooters are terrorists and should be labeled as such. We need to end all the BS empathetic coverage of these shooters and acknowledge them for what they are. They are terrorists in the lineage of Columbine and OK City.

 
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Depression rates are skyrocketing in kids and teens.  Social skills are developing at a slower rate than before.  Much of this is due to a large portion of their actual physical interaction with people being replaced with cyber interaction through social media and other electronic platforms.  For many of the students who do not fit in at school--their feelings of awkwardness and being bulled do not end at the school bell anymore--it follows them home through their electronic devices.  They further get bullied, or go on social media and let feelings of envy get the best of them..etc.   We are talking about kids whose brains aren't fully developed that don't know how to fully process and digest these feelings.   The cumulative effects of all of these feelings can almost create a pressure cooker of anger in the minds of these kids.  You mix that with the availability of guns in our country--and that is just a recipe for disaster.   As others have said--the schools are natural targets because in many of these cases--it's where the perpetrators interpret the abuse that they are feeling is coming from.   I don't have any kids--but I'll say this.  If I did--I'd either keep them off of social media completely--or limit the hell out of it.   It's part of the problem that is manifesting these tragedies in my opinion.  

 
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