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RB Vision - A MUST Read (1 Viewer)

Borden

Borden

Footballguy
This is by far the best article (there might be better books and full breakdowns but not quick articles) I’ve seen on the subject. It’s a PFF article but I think even the non-PFF Guys (looking at you @Biabreakable and @BoltBacker :D ) will either agree with it or find value in the article. To me, vision is tied with burst as thee most important things for an RB. Everything else is just a bonus.  

The article had me onboard as soon as they brought up that there’s a difference between the on field vision and “between the tackles” statement. I will add that there’s also a significant difference between setting up blocks and vision that I don’t think they emphasize enough. 

Link

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Good article.  Just wish he would have ranked current RBs on each dimension and put a stake in the ground on which rookies will be successful.
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I’m glad he didn’t to be honest. I think if he does that it turns into a ranking article rather an article about RB vision. PFF has a lot of rankings and grades so I’m sure them have something. I will see if I can find something and I will throw the link in the thread. 

 
Borden said:
I’m glad he didn’t to be honest. I think if he does that it turns into a ranking article rather an article about RB vision. PFF has a lot of rankings and grades so I’m sure them have something. I will see if I can find something and I will throw the link in the thread. 
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Let me say it differently - I'd like to see his evaluations of a whole bunch of RBs against those criteria he lays out.   I don't really care about actual rankings, rather that I'd like to see who is good/bad for each of the 3 criteria.

 
A lot of what the author of this article is talking about is the same thing that I have been talking about in various threads such as making comparisons of Dalvin Cook and Jerrick McKinnon. Cook just has much better vision, spatial awareness, understanding the flow of the defense and where his blocking is giving him opportunities to run the ball. McKinnon has the speed and ability to be as successful as Cook, but he isn't, so what is missing here?

Thats why I have said it will be interesting to see how McKinnon does in SF as the Vikings were running a lot of outside zone plays (similar to Shanahan offenses) and McKinnon was not as proficient running these plays as Cook was. It is a huge difference.

What PFF does charting every play is something that creates data for traits like vision that are otherwise impossible to quantify.

I would be curious to know what PFF thinks of Joe Mixons vision. This is an issue I have tried to discuss regarding him and why Mixon hasn't been and may not be as good as a lot of people think. 

I am also not sure if vision is something that can be taught to players. If anyone has some ideas about how this can be coached up, I am all ears. I don't really think it can be taught, because it is so tied to instinct, the pacing of a play, feeling the rhythm of the play and timing when blocks will open things up before they do, where defenders will be before they are actually there, being able to set up blocks by pressing the hole and drawing defenders out of position in reaction.

For the 2018 rookies what I can tell everyone is that Derrius Guice has the best vision of this draft class based on my charting.

 
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JoeJoe88 said:
How would you rank Royce?  At least from the tape I've saw, his vision looks outstanding to me.
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I rank him as a tier two RB and 10th overall for rookie players.

As far as my charting I did 4 games of Freeman and he had two games with 10 instances of vision on the play, which for all the RB 10 is usually pretty good, while 5 or 6 is an average game. It wasn't just a lot of plays either, he had 29 and 23 total plays in those games, which is pretty normal amount of plays in a clip. Guice had 17 in one game against Texas T&M where he has 49 plays or the same number of plays as Freemans average for his two best vision games.

From the 4 games I charted Freeman did not have good pad level. He runs high into contact instead of creating leverage and if not break tackles, at least be able to get some additional yards from momentum and body lean.

His vision was pretty good in my opinion though.

 
Watch Derrick Henry versus Okoye or Jacobs or Bam Morris, his vision is exceptional. Like all big backs, he lacks lateral speed and quick hitch lateral moves, but he is aware and runs diagonally with a stiff arm well. 

Henry is a real good example to learn vision from. The other big backs look like a TE or FB.

Old Buc Mike Alstott had vision but not necessarily the ability to capitalize so he would stop on a dime, turn, and run straight again. It's imperfect but that big dog did it well.

The best vision by a RB ever was Joe Morris. Since no one knows him, I'd say Barry to stick with popular opinion but lil Joe....you can't watch a video and not wonder how he saw anything nevermind the ability to make 2 or 3 cuts. It's like a magic act. Barry is easier to see and my goodness when he ran sideline to sideline it was a thing of beauty. Emmitt understood a FBs blocks better than anyone.

Ernie Accorsi used to discuss MLBs to discuss vision. We have less overhead tv angles now, but I found it fascinating to hear vision discussed about the defender. They're reading the line and blocks and gaps too. They're watching the play develop and...if only we had access to overhead cameras easier today

 
Biabreakable said:
That PFF does charting every play is something that creates data for traits like vision that are otherwise impossible to quantify.

I would be curious to know what PFF thinks of Joe Mixons vision. This is an issue I have tried to discuss regarding him and why Mixon hasn't been and may not be as good as a lot of people think. 

I am also not sure if vision is something that can be taught to players. If anyone has some ideas about how this can be coached up, I am all ears. I don't really think it can be taught, because it is so tied to instinct, the pacing of a play, feeling the rhythm of the play and timing when blocks will open things up before they do, where defenders will be before they are actually there, being able to set up blocks by pressing the hole and drawing defenders out of position in reaction.

For the 2018 rookies what I can tell everyone is that Derrius Guice has the best vision of this draft class based on my charting.
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You have any late round round guys you like who have the vision? The physical tools are easier to predict, but field vision is rarely obvious, and often overlooked. This could provide an inefficiency in the market to exploit. If you have ability to spot it.

Only one comes to mind for me: Jordin Wilkins. His style will remind you of Le'Veon, without the extreme burst. His ability to set up blocks has me confident in his vision. Coincidentally, his competition, Mack and Hines, while blessed with physical talent, by my estimation do not have much in the way field vision. Quite the opposite. Wilkins is a solid bet for his price tag for no other reason than his vision and a lack thereof from his teammates.

 
cloppbeast said:
You have any late round round guys you like who have the vision? The physical tools are easier to predict, but field vision is rarely obvious, and often overlooked. This could provide an inefficiency in the market to exploit. If you have ability to spot it.

Only one comes to mind for me: Jordin Wilkins. His style will remind you of Le'Veon, without the extreme burst. His ability to set up blocks has me confident in his vision. Coincidentally, his competition, Mack and Hines, while blessed with physical talent, by my estimation do not have much in the way field vision. Quite the opposite. Wilkins is a solid bet for his price tag for no other reason than his vision and a lack thereof from his teammates.
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For tier 3 RB I have Ito Smith, Kalen Ballage, Naheim Hines, John Kelly, Bo Scarborough, Mark Walton.

I still haven't gotten around to watching Wilkins, and I haven't charted any of the tier 3 guys the way I have the tier two and tier one RB. Just watched a few games of them more casually.

Mark Walton is an interesting RB who the Bengals picked who I think has good vision. He returns kicks which is another sign of him being able to identify running lanes and opportunities. Good elusiveness and a good receiver. He would be my guess of the above RB to have the best vision, although without charting them it is harder for me to be sure.

He is totally buried on the Bengals depth chart right now, but if Mixon busted or was injured then I could see Walton doing well with the opportunity.

I still think Bernard is better than Walton, but they would likely split anyways. Save Marvin Lewis. 

 
Biabreakable said:
For tier 3 RB I have Ito Smith, Kalen Ballage, Naheim Hines, John Kelly, Bo Scarborough, Mark Walton.
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What is it you like about Hines? For this conversation, he has pretty bad vision.

 
cloppbeast said:
What is it you like about Hines? For this conversation, he has pretty bad vision.
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It is more the pure speed and agility that I like about him. I agree he doesn't show good vision between the tackles and not appropriate for this topic.

Him and Walton could be considered exact opposites in that Hines has the athletic ability Walton will never have, but Walton has the skill and vision that Hones may never have. The opportunity for Hines to earn a role that could be relevant for fantasy is better than Waltons.

 
Biabreakable said:
I rank him as a tier two RB and 10th overall for rookie players.

As far as my charting I did 4 games of Freeman and he had two games with 10 instances of vision on the play, which for all the RB 10 is usually pretty good, while 5 or 6 is an average game. It wasn't just a lot of plays either, he had 29 and 23 total plays in those games, which is pretty normal amount of plays in a clip. Guice had 17 in one game against Texas T&M where he has 49 plays or the same number of plays as Freemans average for his two best vision games.

From the 4 games I charted Freeman did not have good pad level. He runs high into contact instead of creating leverage and if not break tackles, at least be able to get some additional yards from momentum and body lean.

His vision was pretty good in my opinion though.
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Freeman often found a lane but was aided by some wide open spaces to maneuver. I'm a little unsure about how he'll do in crowded spaces like he'll see in the NFL.

 
Biabreakable said:
A lot of what the author of this article is talking about is the same thing that I have been talking about in various threads such as making comparisons of Dalvin Cook and Jerrick McKinnon. Cook just has much better vision, spatial awareness, understanding the flow of the defense and where his blocking is giving him opportunities to run the ball. McKinnon has the speed and ability to be as successful as Cook, but he isn't, so what is missing here?

Thats why I have said it will be interesting to see how McKinnon does in SF as the Vikings were running a lot of outside zone plays (similar to Shanahan offenses) and McKinnon was not as proficient running these plays as Cook was. It is a huge difference.

What PFF does charting every play is something that creates data for traits like vision that are otherwise impossible to quantify.

I would be curious to know what PFF thinks of Joe Mixons vision. This is an issue I have tried to discuss regarding him and why Mixon hasn't been and may not be as good as a lot of people think. 

I am also not sure if vision is something that can be taught to players. If anyone has some ideas about how this can be coached up, I am all ears. I don't really think it can be taught, because it is so tied to instinct, the pacing of a play, feeling the rhythm of the play and timing when blocks will open things up before they do, where defenders will be before they are actually there, being able to set up blocks by pressing the hole and drawing defenders out of position in reaction.

For the 2018 rookies what I can tell everyone is that Derrius Guice has the best vision of this draft class based on my charting.
Click to expand...
You didn't mention Jones II, which means I think he's not your favorite. This is startling. He's my favorite guy behind Guice, and trails only Guice in the category of vision. 

 
cloppbeast said:
Freeman often found a lane but was aided by some wide open spaces to maneuver. I'm a little unsure about how he'll do in crowded spaces like he'll see in the NFL.
Click to expand...
For me he wasn't always decisive when I thought he should be, but generally he read his blocks well when he had something to work with. Freemans weakness between the tackles more about his pad level and sometimes poor footwork as well.

For the 4 games I charted vision (33) was his best trait, followed by footwork (29). then burst (19) but none of these traits were exceptional relative to other players from 2018. Freeman just does everything ok not great. That is why he is a tier two RB.

 
cloppbeast said:
You didn't mention Jones II, which means I think he's not your favorite. This is startling. He's my favorite guy behind Guice, and trails only Guice in the category of vision. 
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I didn't mention Jones because he wasn't highlighted by the article and he hasn't been a situation where vision was the focus of discussion.

For the 4 games of Jones that I charted he had two games with 11 and two games with 7. So the vision is good and a bit better than Royce Freemans, even though this was Freemans best trait from my charting.  Jones has much better pad level and burst compared to Freeman, very similar footwork. 

Jones is my 3rd overall rookie and a tier one RB. For total scores Jones was the closest to Guice and Barkley out of all of the 2018 RB and that is with his game against Ohio State as 25% of the sample. Freemans 4 games didn't have a difficult match up like that in them.

 
Biabreakable said:
Here is an article talking about Ronald Jones vision, patience and processing ability.
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I,too, found link to be highly illuminating, which reinforced my belief in Jones II as one of top 5 rookies.  I always appreciated his talents and skills when watching USC games in past years (I'm USC Trojans homer).  They always turned to Jones II whenever they need scoring especially in red-zone.  Fortunately, I was able to nab him at 7th overall pick in my PPR dynasty league's rookie draft.  I love his potential and opportunity with TB Buccaneers especially their offensive play-makers but it's all boil down on Wintson's decision-making. 

 
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