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Star Wars Universe (1 Viewer)

NewlyRetired said:
She is not an anti hero either though.

Maybe she is on some sort of Daenerys like path where she goes from some one were were suppose to root for to some one not?  I can't see Disney turning her full bad though, that seems beyond their capability.
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Right. And that's one of my problems. Luke was a hero in the OT. Anakin was an easily identifiable anti hero.

Rey is neither.

 
NewlyRetired said:
It is worth acknowledging that Luke's main goal only became clear in the 3rd movie.   Maybe something similar will emerge for Rey in the 3rd movie.
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That is partially true but it was a goal that was built upon his existing journey. He was training to confront Vader. He only found out Vader was his father at the end of Empire.

Goal of ANH. Help out Obiwan, destroy the death star. 

Goal of ESB. Train to become a Jedi. Confront Vader. Save his friends (which he fails at). 

Goal of RotJ. Save his father from the Dark Side now that he knows Vader is his father. Defeat the Empire.

 
Insein said:
Don't get me wrong. Lucas still is very culpable in all of this. I'm not one of those people that are pining for the old days of Georgey Boy. I just didn't think Disney would half ### the new trilogy as much as they have. I thought we'd be getting the Marvel treatment. People in charge that understand the property, know it's rules and limitations as well as it's strengths and write a story that spans more than one movie at a time. They've been ad libbing from the beginning. Now we're in the 3rd movie that should have an End Game feel to it but it's more of a damage control piece to try to fill in the holes TLJ left.
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Aren't they doing that though?  As far as the New Trilogy goes....they were ALWAYS going to have the problem on how to thread a needle in regards to showcasing both the OT characters and building a future franchise. 

Rogue One and Solo were both very good (Rogue One to me is actually the best Star Wars movie ever made) and added to the existing universe.  The limited looks given to us from The Mandalorian make it look awesome.

The OTI guess my biggest beef with NT haters is that they act as if the OT was Shakespeare.  It was silly at times. It had potty humor. It has flimsy ### plot devices and a paper thin plot. Luke was a Larry Sue.

 
Thunderlips said:
Aren't they doing that though?  As far as the New Trilogy goes....they were ALWAYS going to have the problem on how to thread a needle in regards to showcasing both the OT characters and building a future franchise. 

Rogue One and Solo were both very good (Rogue One to me is actually the best Star Wars movie ever made) and added to the existing universe.  The limited looks given to us from The Mandalorian make it look awesome.

The OTI guess my biggest beef with NT haters is that they act as if the OT was Shakespeare.  It was silly at times. It had potty humor. It has flimsy ### plot devices and a paper thin plot. Luke was a Larry Sue.
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No he wasn't. Luke could not do everything instantly. He actually had flaws and struggled at times. He grew into a Jedi by the final chapter of his trilogy. The first movie he only picked up a  lightsaber once and that was to train. People that try to say Luke is the same as Rey just aren't watching the same thing.

 
Insein said:
No he wasn't. Luke could not do everything instantly. He actually had flaws and struggled at times. He grew into a Jedi by the final chapter of his trilogy. The first movie he only picked up a  lightsaber once and that was to train. People that try to say Luke is the same as Rey just aren't watching the same thing.
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Come on....he blew up the Death Star with one shot....with no targeting computer....while never before flying an X-Wing.

 
Thunderlips said:
Come on....he blew up the Death Star with one shot....with no targeting computer....while never before flying an X-Wing.
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He guided a missile through space as a call back to Obiwan telling him to trust his feelings. This after it was said that he could fly and shoot womprats back home. They established he could do these things. He didn't just do them. 

 
Insein said:
He guided a missile through space as a call back to Obiwan telling him to trust his feelings. This after it was said that he could fly and shoot womprats back home. They established he could do these things. He didn't just do them. 
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Yeah, he was an established pilot. He may not have ever been in anything like an Xwing, but there's still a stick and thrusters and some sort of weapon system. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Yeah, he was an established pilot. He may not have ever been in anything like an Xwing, but there's still a stick and thrusters and some sort of weapon system. 
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And they even had a scene where the Rebel Commander asked whether he could handle it or not and Biggs Darklighter personally vouches for his abilities. There's your exposition on Luke being a capable pilot to handle an Xwing.

It's not like he learned how to fly a heavily modified light frigate like the Millennium Falcon (that was in moth balls for an undetermined period of time and always ran perfectly whenever we saw it 30 years prior) without even being on a spaceship since they were 5 or 6 years old.

 
TheFanatic said:
Yeah, he was an established pilot. He may not have ever been in anything like an Xwing, but there's still a stick and thrusters and some sort of weapon system. 
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IIRC, there is an early scene where they are traveling to Alderaan on the Millenium Falcon and Luke has a model fighter in his hand that he is flying around that is a tri-wing design, which is a model of the T-16 he used to bullseye womp rats in back home. :nerd:

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
Good lord no. Replacing Harrison Ford was an impossible tast but they found the perfect guy. Also, Han “shooting first “ was epic. 
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I am predisposed not to like this movie.  I really dislike origin movies, especially if it's retconned origin stories like Solo was.  Didn't feel like they had an actual story in mind just - see how he got his name, see how he got his fuzzy dice, see how he got his vest, etc..  :yawn:

 
Insein said:
And they even had a scene where the Rebel Commander asked whether he could handle it or not and Biggs Darklighter personally vouches for his abilities. There's your exposition on Luke being a capable pilot to handle an Xwing.

It's not like he learned how to fly a heavily modified light frigate like the Millennium Falcon (that was in moth balls for an undetermined period of time and always ran perfectly whenever we saw it 30 years prior) without even being on a spaceship since they were 5 or 6 years old.
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BIGGS?  WHO THE HELL IS BIGGS TO VOUCH? Guy lasted about 3 minutes.......

And if Luke was such a great pilot......why did he almost crash onto the surface of the Death Star 2 minutes into the fight?

They're the same story:

Young lonely kid on a desert planet who has a yearning for another life and something else  confronts and defeats an almost impossible adversary with the help of both a latent inner power and a group of plucky friends = Luke

Young, lonely kid on a desert planet who has a yearning for another life and something else confronts and defeats an almost impossible adversary with the help of both a latent inner power and a group of plucky friends = Rey

And I'm not even saying thats bad. It's a tried and true plot to an adventure story.  It's just that it's odd for people to hate the Rey narrative so bad while accepting the Luke narrative as something good. 

 
Thunderlips said:
BIGGS?  WHO THE HELL IS BIGGS TO VOUCH? Guy lasted about 3 minutes.......

And if Luke was such a great pilot......why did he almost crash onto the surface of the Death Star 2 minutes into the fight?

They're the same story:

Young lonely kid on a desert planet who has a yearning for another life and something else  confronts and defeats an almost impossible adversary with the help of both a latent inner power and a group of plucky friends = Luke

Young, lonely kid on a desert planet who has a yearning for another life and something else confronts and defeats an almost impossible adversary with the help of both a latent inner power and a group of plucky friends = Rey

And I'm not even saying thats bad. It's a tried and true plot to an adventure story.  It's just that it's odd for people to hate the Rey narrative so bad while accepting the Luke narrative as something good. 
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It's been done to death. You can see the obvious difference between Luke who was not perfect at anything and often made mistakes but strived to get better versus Rey who flew the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo her first try, could do Jedi Mind Tricks better than Obiwan her first try (without even knowing that was a thing), could use a Force pull on her first try with no effort at all, beat a trained force user with a lightsaber in her first time lighting it up. 

That's all the first movie. If you can't understand why people can't relate to her then you probably think Superman is just a regular guy we all can be like.

Luke is the every man who grew into a legend. Rey is just another super hero who does some cool moves occasionally.

It was almost like JJ sat down with some people and had a brainstorming session to go over a the things a Jedi can do, then put it all in the movie with no exposition or context on how she knew how to do it. I assume he expected the next director to explain some of that but nope. Just accept that she's a super hero and like it. 

 
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Bull Dozier said:
"10,000 thousand?  We could almost buy our own ship for that."

"Yeah, but who's goin to fly it, kid, you?"

"You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot myself..."
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Luke was the equivalent of a young bush pilot sitting in an F15 fighter for the first time and being able to fly it like an expert. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
Luke was the equivalent of a young bush pilot sitting in an F15 fighter for the first time and being able to fly it like an expert. 
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The T-16 was made by the same company Incom as the T-65 X-Wing in the expanded lore which helped explain why Luke was able to fly the X-wing with minimal training  :nerd:

So probably more like going from a McDonnell Douglas T-65 trainer to an F-15, still a stretch. Extra :nerd: :nerd: : World War 2 pilots would only get about 2 months specialized flight training in their fighters before heading into combat. All other flight training would start out in biplanes and other trainer type aircraft as they worked up to their final assigned planes.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Luke was the equivalent of a young bush pilot sitting in an F15 fighter for the first time and being able to fly it like an expert. 
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No he wasn't. 

"Luke Skywalker owned a T-16 skyhopper on Tatooine prior to the Battle of Yavin, as well as a small model that could be held in one's hands. He would use the airspeeder's pneumatic cannon to kill womp rats. The controls were similar to Incom's T-65B X-wing starfighter, which greatly benefited Skywalker during the Battle of Yavin."

 
Buckna said:
The T-16 was made by the same company Incom as the T-65 X-Wing in the expanded lore which helped explain why Luke was able to fly the X-wing with minimal training  :nerd:

So probably more like going from a McDonnell Douglas T-65 trainer to an F-15, still a stretch. Extra :nerd: :nerd: : World War 2 pilots would only get about 2 months specialized flight training in their fighters before heading into combat. All other flight training would start out in biplanes and other trainer type aircraft as they worked up to their final assigned planes.
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The point is, he flew a plane for many years before ever jumping into an Xwing. His inexperience showed as well when wedge had to save him as he couldn't out maneuver a Tie pilot who was tailng him.

 
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Insein said:
The point is, he flew a plane for many years before ever jumping into an Xwing. His inexperience showed as well when wedge had to save him as he couldn't out maneuver a Tie pilot who was tailng him.
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If we are allowed to use the expanded universe for items to explain Luke's actions, why are we ignoring Rey's background as a mechanic, pilot and warrior on Jakku?

You are being terribly inconsistent here and seem to be looking for reasons to hate Rey while giving Luke all the benefit of the doubt.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
If we are allowed to use the expanded universe for items to explain Luke's actions, why are we ignoring Rey's background as a mechanic, pilot and warrior on Jakku?

You are being terribly inconsistent here and seem to be looking for reasons to hate Rey while giving Luke all the benefit of the doubt.
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Rey was a pilot? I remember her driving that one man speeder. But calling her a pilot is like calling a guy who rides a motorcycle a jet pilot.

 
TheFanatic said:
Rey was a pilot? I remember her driving that one man speeder. But calling her a pilot is like calling a guy who rides a motorcycle a jet pilot.
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That was my point.  I am not talking about the movie.  I was referring to using information from the EU to explain Luke's actions and that we should be allowed to do the same for Rey if we want to be consistent.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rey

 
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Expanded Universe stuff often fills in the blanks and helps smooth over the plot-holes. Mostly it's ultra- :nerd:  stuff for us fanboys. If you want to stick to what's actually in the films, I think it's safe to say that Lucas tried to earn it with the references to the T-16, Luke's dialogue about being a fair pilot, and Luke's friend Biggs (although a lot of Biggs was cut for time in the original version.)

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, my main disappointment with Rey or TFA for that matter is that Abrams just rehashed the same story again with a few modernizations. Not necessarily the quality of how that story was told compared to the original.

 
Buckna said:
Expanded Universe stuff often fills in the blanks and helps smooth over the plot-holes. Mostly it's ultra- :nerd:  stuff for us fanboys. If you want to stick to what's actually in the films, I think it's safe to say that Lucas tried to earn it with the references to the T-16, Luke's dialogue about being a fair pilot, and Luke's friend Biggs (although a lot of Biggs was cut for time in the original version.)
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I am a big fan of the EU.  I have read and watched a ton of non movie related items over the years.

When I think about the T16 mention in Star Wars, I don't think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that Luke is a great pilot, I think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that hitting the 2 meter target might not be as impossible as it first sounds.  I thought the important part of that line of dialogue was the womp rats, not the T16 itself but I may have misinterpreted it all this time.

 
NewlyRetired said:
If we are allowed to use the expanded universe for items to explain Luke's actions, why are we ignoring Rey's background as a mechanic, pilot and warrior on Jakku?

You are being terribly inconsistent here and seem to be looking for reasons to hate Rey while giving Luke all the benefit of the doubt.
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He said the line in the movie. Biggs vouched for him in the movie. We saw him fly in the movie and be a bit green at it. 

We don't get any exposition that Rey is a pilot. She just jumps in and flies the millennium falcon like a seasoned expert. Later in the movie we see her dropped on Jakku as a little girl. Meaning she hadn't even been on a spaceship as far as we know since she was 6-7 years old. No one told us she could fly the whole movie. How would we under she had any pilot skills on a desert planet full of scrap?

 
NewlyRetired said:
I have no problems how Luke was portrayed, nor do I have issues with Rey. 

I just want to enjoy the movies and find it sad when people nit pick them hoping to prove how much smarter they are then everyone else because they don't like them and that people that enjoy them must be stupid.
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It wasn't a point that Luke was an expert pilot. It was just a point that this farm boy on a desert planet had some flying skills. Even the line, I'm not such a bad pilot myself infers that he has flown before at least. 

My point is that a simple piece of dialogue or cut of video evidence could have cleared up how Rey could fly. Maybe she is an expert pilot and has been flying most of her young life to and from the planet Jakku. That's not shown or even implied so we're left with the obvious. A little girl abandoned on a desert planet and barely getting by on finding scraps to eat somehow flew Hans ship better than Han.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I have no problems how Luke was portrayed, nor do I have issues with Rey. 

I just want to enjoy the movies and find it sad when people nit pick them hoping to prove how much smarter they are then everyone else because they don't like them and that people that enjoy them must be stupid.
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:hifive:

 
NewlyRetired said:
I am a big fan of the EU.  I have read and watched a ton of non movie related items over the years.

When I think about the T16 mention in Star Wars, I don't think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that Luke is a great pilot, I think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that hitting the 2 meter target might not be as impossible as it first sounds.  I thought the important part of that line of dialogue was the womp rats, not the T16 itself but I may have misinterpreted it all this time.
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I highly doubt Lucas foresaw people debating the inconsistencies in his stories decades after he made them.  If he had, the prequels wouldn't have told the story they did.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I am a big fan of the EU.  I have read and watched a ton of non movie related items over the years.

When I think about the T16 mention in Star Wars, I don't think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that Luke is a great pilot, I think of it as Lucas trying to show the audience that hitting the 2 meter target might not be as impossible as it first sounds.  I thought the important part of that line of dialogue was the womp rats, not the T16 itself but I may have misinterpreted it all this time.
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No I think you are spot on, IMO it serves double duty (hehehe duty) lending more believability that the shot could even be made in the first place while also reminding us that its not ludicrous that this moisture farmer kid is being thrown in a starfighter to fight along side these rebel scum out of nowhere.

More :nerd: : one of the deleted scenes Lucas added back in when he did the restoration was a quick reunion scene with Biggs as they are running to jump into their fighters to attack the Death Star. This helps make the scene where Biggs is shot down make more sense as Luke reacted very strongly in the original to his random wingman getting shot down, now we know he just saw his childhood friend die.

 
Bull Dozier said:
I highly doubt Lucas foresaw people debating the inconsistencies in his stories decades after he made them.  If he had, the prequels wouldn't have told the story they did.
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Somewhere immortalized out on the internet is a really cool interview with Gary Kurtz about a lot of the original concepts they had before Lucas decided to rewrite the outline for Jedi. Kurtz left after Empire because he felt Lucas had morphed into caring more about selling merchandise than telling a great story. Stuff like Leia not actually being Luke's sister, there being another trilogy that would have occurred and the story not being tied up all neatly in Jedi. IIRC, we would have met Luke's sister on some other planet only to eventually have her be killed, Han would have been rescued but would have died during the final fighting, no teddy bears, no second death star, and no big happy ending celebration. Some of those concepts probably wouldn't have worked or likely needed to be fleshed out further...

To think we may never have had the boogie down productions of the Ewok victory celebration. Yub Dub!

 
Buckna said:
Somewhere immortalized out on the internet is a really cool interview with Gary Kurtz about a lot of the original concepts they had before Lucas decided to rewrite the outline for Jedi. Kurtz left after Empire because he felt Lucas had morphed into caring more about selling merchandise than telling a great story. Stuff like Leia not actually being Luke's sister, there being another trilogy that would have occurred and the story not being tied up all neatly in Jedi. IIRC, we would have met Luke's sister on some other planet only to eventually have her be killed, Han would have been rescued but would have died during the final fighting, no teddy bears, no second death star, and no big happy ending celebration. Some of those concepts probably wouldn't have worked or likely needed to be fleshed out further...

To think we may never have had the boogie down productions of the Ewok victory celebration. Yub Dub!
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The darker ending might have worked with today's audiences but I don't think that would have gone over well back in  the 80's. 

 
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My BIL is kind of a db and his big gripe was he thought it was annoying they made all women and minority heroes in the new series.  Sadly, I bet that same view is what’s causing a lot of the negative sentiment. 

People are incredibly stupid. 
 

New movie looks great.  If you hate Star Wars stuff fine, but I don’t see how someone who likes Star Wars movies would say this looks bad.  Unless you’re just looking for reasons to not like it. :shrug:  

 
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Buckna said:
Somewhere immortalized out on the internet is a really cool interview with Gary Kurtz about a lot of the original concepts they had before Lucas decided to rewrite the outline for Jedi. Kurtz left after Empire because he felt Lucas had morphed into caring more about selling merchandise than telling a great story. Stuff like Leia not actually being Luke's sister, there being another trilogy that would have occurred and the story not being tied up all neatly in Jedi. IIRC, we would have met Luke's sister on some other planet only to eventually have her be killed, Han would have been rescued but would have died during the final fighting, no teddy bears, no second death star, and no big happy ending celebration. Some of those concepts probably wouldn't have worked or likely needed to be fleshed out further...

To think we may never have had the boogie down productions of the Ewok victory celebration. Yub Dub!
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It may well be that some or that cheese factor is what helped capture a generation of young kids (now fat old men). 

 
Otis said:
My BIL is kind of a db and his big gripe was he thought it was annoying they made all women and minority heroes in the new series.  Sadly, I bet that same view is what’s causing a lot of the negative sentiment. 

People are incredibly stupid. 
 

New movie looks great.  If you hate Star Wars stuff fine, but I don’t see how someone who likes Star Wars movies would say this looks bad.  Unless you’re just looking for reasons to not like it. :shrug:  
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That sentiment exists just like it exists in every facet of entertainment. Guys don't like women refs or women reporters. And some people are just racists. But that is a very small minority. 

I mean Star wars has one of the most iconic badass female characters ever created and she's been around since the 70's. Also, Lando is certainly a hero RotJ and an interesting character in ESB. So I don't think people that were fans since the beginning of Star wars are suddenly crying out because women and minorities "finally" got bigger parts.

 
Insein said:
That sentiment exists just like it exists in every facet of entertainment. Guys don't like women refs or women reporters. And some people are just racists. But that is a very small minority. 

I mean Star wars has one of the most iconic badass female characters ever created and she's been around since the 70's. Also, Lando is certainly a hero RotJ and an interesting character in ESB. So I don't think people that were fans since the beginning of Star wars are suddenly crying out because women and minorities "finally" got bigger parts.
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This particular person needed a white male protagonist. Why?  I don’t know. Because that’s how it was when he was growing up.

Maybe you’ve noticed this, but the voting populous is, well, stupid. 

 
Otis said:
This particular person needed a white male protagonist. Why?  I don’t know. Because that’s how it was when he was growing up.

Maybe you’ve noticed this, but the voting populous is, well, stupid. 
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I'm sure people like that exist but they don't represent a fanbase. Like you wouldn't label the Packers fanbase an unruly bunch a-holes based on guys like this would you?

 
If we're gonna get :nerd:  does anyone remember the old EU book with the Super Star Destroyer built into and buried under a whole city section of Coruscant, ripping itself out of the ground and cracking the city open above it on it's way out and killing hundreds of thousands? I think it was a secret prison ship where the prisoners thought they were on a remote planet, originally built as an escape vessel for Palpatine when he was still alive. 

Anyways, always thought that was cool as a middle schooler and the Super Star Destroyer tearing itself out of the frozen ocean in the new trailer reminded me of it.

Edit: just looked it up, it was called the Lusankya

 
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