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WSOP Main Event - Hellmuth controversy (1 Viewer)

Stinkin Ref said:
I'm still not sure what you mean...what am I missing...apologize ahead of time if I'm off track on something
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I said it wasn't a big deal because Hellmuth made it right. Then you gave a what if this was his only chance, but failed to look at the big picture. 

What if Hellmuth outburst made that guy call and his hand holds up? 

What if Hellmuth says nothing and the guy wins the hand? He is still short stacked and a long shot. 

What if Hellmuth changes his mind after the other player folds and knocks him out? 

What if this guy gets a free roll into the event next year and wins It?

What if it was a regular guy and he stands up and starts yelling at Hellmuth for costing his tournament?

The answer is who cares. Hellmuth made it right and everything is good, it should be a non issue now. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
I said it wasn't a big deal because Hellmuth made it right. Then you gave a what if this was his only chance, but failed to look at the big picture. 

What if Hellmuth outburst made that guy call and his hand holds up? 

What if Hellmuth says nothing and the guy wins the hand? He is still short stacked and a long shot. 

What if Hellmuth changes his mind after the other player folds and knocks him out? 

What if this guy gets a free roll into the event next year and wins It?

What if it was a regular guy and he stands up and starts yelling at Hellmuth for costing his tournament?

The answer is who cares. Hellmuth made it right and everything is good, it should be a non issue now. 
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I'm basing off of what happened, not a bunch of what if's....what Phil did directly contributed to knocking him out...and he can never get that opportunity back...if I have a half court shot for a million dollars and you knock my ball out of the air as it is approaching the rim....I never get that shot back and who knows if it would have gone in...you can arrange for me to get 10 more shots....who knows if I hit any of those....but I will still never get that first shot back...honestly there really is no way to really "make it right"...its too late....buying him in next year, doesn't make it right....it maybe is an offering to make the best of a bad situation, as Camby acknowledged...but it will never be "all good"...thats the "big picture"...

 
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Maybe Camby had no intention of playing again next year and he goes on to run deep and cash for more than he would have this year, only because Phil bought him in.

 
Oh ####, but what if he takes that big score and goes off the rails with hookers and blow and loses his house and wife and kids and ends up homeless and destitute, blowing johns for rock all because Phil bought him in next year??

####### Phil, what an ####### he just completely ruined Camby's future life.

 
Regardless of any potential outcomes (guy busts on next hand, wins it all, ends up hooking up with Hellmuth later that night in his suite, etc.), Hellmuth's actions are inexcusable.  He's a #### for doing that.  This certainly isn't his first tournament.

 
Do people think that Helmuth knowingly showed emotion before it was his turn to act on purpose or do most believe that he just brainfarted and reacted  forgetting (or not thinking) there was another live hand in front of him?   If it was a brain fart moment- I think people are piling on way too hard. Even professional athletes have brain fart moments and all they can do is their best to make things right. I think him paying for a buy in next year is plenty enough. 

Helmuth had no control in if the wsop should or shouldn’t punish him. I play lots of poker and I’ve accidentally acted out of line before. It’s not a common thing but I assure you that every poker player has done it.

 
Stinkin Ref said:
I'm basing off of what happened, not a bunch of what if's....what Phil did directly contributed to knocking him out...and he can never get that opportunity back...if I have a half court shot for a million dollars and you knock my ball out of the air as it is approaching the rim....I never get that shot back and who knows if it would have gone in...you can arrange for me to get 10 more shots....who knows if I hit any of those....but I will still never get that first shot back...honestly there really is no way to really "make it right"...its too late....buying him in next year, doesn't make it right....it maybe is an offering to make the best of a bad situation, as Camby acknowledged...but it will never be "all good"...thats the "big picture"...
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Except you are basing it on a what if. You made up a totally untrue scenario about this maybe being the only shot he has at millions. 

Hellmuth made a mistake, the dealer made a mistake. Hellmuth apologized and made it right. This happens all the time. It is a non issue. 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Do people think that Helmuth knowingly showed emotion before it was his turn to act on purpose or do most believe that he just brainfarted and reacted  forgetting (or not thinking) there was another live hand in front of him?   If it was a brain fart moment- I think people are piling on way too hard. Even professional athletes have brain fart moments and all they can do is their best to make things right. I think him paying for a buy in next year is plenty enough. 

Helmuth had no control in if the wsop should or shouldn’t punish him. I play lots of poker and I’ve accidentally acted out of line before. It’s not a common thing but I assure you that every poker player has done it.
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I disagree.  I think many of us here play lots of poker ("lots" can be debated of course) and many of us don't say a word until we at least know we're heads up.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Do people think that Helmuth knowingly showed emotion before it was his turn to act on purpose or do most believe that he just brainfarted and reacted  forgetting (or not thinking) there was another live hand in front of him?   If it was a brain fart moment- I think people are piling on way too hard. Even professional athletes have brain fart moments and all they can do is their best to make things right. I think him paying for a buy in next year is plenty enough. 

Helmuth had no control in if the wsop should or shouldn’t punish him. I play lots of poker and I’ve accidentally acted out of line before. It’s not a common thing but I assure you that every poker player has done it.
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If you're going to do that shtick for the camera, you have to be aware if it's your turn to act or if you're heads up or whatever. If it affects the hand I don't think it matters if it was unintentional or not.

I think the whole "poker brat" act is lame but I'll take it over those guys who go into the tank every single time it's their turn. The guy in the black sweatshirt started to annoy me last night. Just freakin act. No need to put on a show for every obvious lay down. 

 
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jvdesigns2002 said:
Oh come on. You’ve played lots of poker and have never accidentally bet, called or folded out of line?  I find that impossible to believe
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Did you read or hear what Hellmuth did?

It's not like he accidentally put out a bet/call/fold.  It was a "verbal tirade".

I think we're all guilty of accidentally acting out of turn in regards to betting/calling/folding.  My response was related to verbal actions and talking.

 
eoMMan said:
Did you read or hear what Hellmuth did?

It's not like he accidentally put out a bet/call/fold.  It was a "verbal tirade".

I think we're all guilty of accidentally acting out of turn in regards to betting/calling/folding.  My response was related to verbal actions and talking.
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If he brainfarted and forgot the guy ahead of him was in the hand or somehow brainfarted and thought the guy ahead of him had already mucked- he’s effectively guilty of playing out of line. The idea is that the verbal tirade gave away the fact that he was going to fold. He effectively acted out of order no matter how you want to spin it.

I assure you that virtually no poker player on the planet has imposed a $10k fine on themselves for doing so.  Do you really think his intention was to dictate the other players action in the hand or do you think he reacted not thinking/forgetting there was a player in front of him?  I personally don’t think he knowingly did it with the intention of manipulating how the hand played out.  If you feel otherwise- then we just see things differently.

 
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eoMMan said:
Did you read or hear what Hellmuth did?

It's not like he accidentally put out a bet/call/fold.  It was a "verbal tirade".

I think we're all guilty of accidentally acting out of turn in regards to betting/calling/folding.  My response was related to verbal actions and talking.
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If you look at the video link posted last night, he doesn't appear to acknowledge that the guy on the right is in the hand. Totally looking the other way at the all in guy.  Just Phil getting emotional.  In his rant, you can faintly hear something to the effect that this is the 15th time that guy has done that move.  

 
Getzlaf15 said:
If you look at the video link posted last night, he doesn't appear to acknowledge that the guy on the right is in the hand. Totally looking the other way at the all in guy.  Just Phil getting emotional.  In his rant, you can faintly hear something to the effect that this is the 15th time that guy has done that move.  
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I agree with this. And he's a doosh for letting his emotions get the best of him....especially for a guy with as much experience playing as he does.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
If he brainfarted and forgot the guy ahead of him was in the hand or somehow brainfarted and thought the guy ahead of him had already mucked- he’s effectively guilty of playing out of line. The idea is that the verbal tirade gave away the fact that he was going to fold. He effectively acted out of order no matter how you want to spin it.

I assure you that virtually no poker player on the planet has imposed a $10k fine on themselves for doing so.  Do you really think his intention was to dictate the other players action in the hand or do you think he reacted not thinking/forgetting there was a player in front of him?  I personally don’t think he knowingly did it with the intention of manipulating how the hand played out.  If you feel otherwise- then we just see things differently.
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I don't care what his intention is/was and I don't pretend to know.  That's irrelevant, imo.

He should learn to keep his cool and shut the F up.  Plain and simple.

 
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msudaisy26 said:
Except you are basing it on a what if. You made up a totally untrue scenario about this maybe being the only shot he has at millions. 

Hellmuth made a mistake, the dealer made a mistake. Hellmuth apologized and made it right. This happens all the time. It is a non issue. 
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i'm not basing on a what if....or making up an untrue scenario....what Phil did contributed to him getting knocked out...his shot at winning millions in this tournament is over...thats not a what if or an untrue scenario...you can't go back and "make it right"...dude could die tomorrow

 
Stinkin Ref said:
i'm not basing on a what if....or making up an untrue scenario....what Phil did contributed to him getting knocked out...his shot at winning millions in this tournament is over...thats not a what if or an untrue scenario...you can't go back and "make it right"...dude could die tomorrow
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Okay  :rolleyes:

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Phil's actually really good at razz and mixed games.  His razz record lately is pretty sick.  

It's odd that the guy he played heads up against last night quit shoving all in and started playing Phil small ball with him. 

My first wsop cash was ten years ago in a horse.  Phil finished third in that.  I've never played with him. He's been at the next table several times. I would love to 3 bet him to death and get him to tilt.  
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:pokey:

-QG

 
gianmarco said:
That's why you aren't supposed to discuss an ongoing hand nor act out of turn. You may influence a player to call or fold when they otherwise wouldn't.  That's why the rule is in place. If you are heads up, then it's fair game, but not with others in a pot.
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THIS. Whether it's a home game or WSOP ME, it's just good poker etiquette to wait your turn before acting or somehow implying what your intentions might be (moving your cards towards the muck pile, etc.). 

Also agree that Helmuth almost certainly did this intentionally. 

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Phil's actually really good at razz and mixed games.  His razz record lately is pretty sick.  

It's odd that the guy he played heads up against last night quit shoving all in and started playing Phil small ball with him. 

My first wsop cash was ten years ago in a horse.  Phil finished third in that.  I've never played with him. He's been at the next table several times. I would love to 3 bet him to death and get him to tilt.  
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awesome :) How many cashes do you have Getzlaf?

-QG

 
I wonder if Phil actually paid this from his own pocket or if one of his sponsors paid it for him? Phil has been taking a lot of heat over his high pricing of his selling pieces of his action lately too, so he can use some good PR.

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Do people think that Helmuth knowingly showed emotion before it was his turn to act on purpose or do most believe that he just brainfarted and reacted  forgetting (or not thinking) there was another live hand in front of him?   If it was a brain fart moment- I think people are piling on way too hard. Even professional athletes have brain fart moments and all they can do is their best to make things right. I think him paying for a buy in next year is plenty enough. 

Helmuth had no control in if the wsop should or shouldn’t punish him. I play lots of poker and I’ve accidentally acted out of line before. It’s not a common thing but I assure you that every poker player has done it.
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This

 
actually kind of surprised it doesn't happen to Phil more....he likes to think its all about him....especially if he is in a hand....everybody else are the back up dancers....

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Do people think that Helmuth knowingly showed emotion before it was his turn to act on purpose or do most believe that he just brainfarted and reacted  forgetting (or not thinking) there was another live hand in front of him?   If it was a brain fart moment- I think people are piling on way too hard. Even professional athletes have brain fart moments and all they can do is their best to make things right. I think him paying for a buy in next year is plenty enough. 

Helmuth had no control in if the wsop should or shouldn’t punish him. I play lots of poker and I’ve accidentally acted out of line before. It’s not a common thing but I assure you that every poker player has done it.
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It was a brain-fart, but it's really weird  that someone who has played that much poker had that strong of an emotional reaction to a pretty standard situation. 

Agree with all that it's gauche, but is there a concrete WSOP rule that pertains to this?

 
Good Posting Judge said:
It was a brain-fart, but it's really weird  that someone who has played that much poker had that strong of an emotional reaction to a pretty standard situation. 

Agree with all that it's gauche, but is there a concrete WSOP rule that pertains to this?
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That's a pretty big reach. Maybe there's some editing for TV, but he insta min-raises Kuzmin's open. I find it highly unlikely that he forgot Kuzmin was in the hand, unless Campbell tanked for a very long time before the all-in. As shown on TV, I would say it's very unlikely this was a brain fart.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
If you look at the video link posted last night, he doesn't appear to acknowledge that the guy on the right is in the hand. Totally looking the other way at the all in guy.  Just Phil getting emotional.  In his rant, you can faintly hear something to the effect that this is the 15th time that guy has done that move.  
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Agreed, but he also shut it down pretty quickly when he realized he screwed up.

 
I think it was a brain fart and he realized his mistake right away.  At least he was in the hand.  I hate it when guys who fold pre flop blurt out "can I have my cards back" or "why did I fold" after the flop comes out.  One time at my local casino I 4 bet pre flop with pocket aces and had one caller.  Flop was K-K-5 and some jackass at the table said "I can't believe I folded a king!".  I was pissed, but I wasn't sure if caller heard him so I didn't bring it up.  They guy beat me with Ace King, knowing I couldn't of had a King if he heard the guy.  Super bs

 
Don't Noonan said:
I think it was a brain fart and he realized his mistake right away.  At least he was in the hand.  I hate it when guys who fold pre flop blurt out "can I have my cards back" or "why did I fold" after the flop comes out.  One time at my local casino I 4 bet pre flop with pocket aces and had one caller.  Flop was K-K-5 and some jackass at the table said "I can't believe I folded a king!".  I was pissed, but I wasn't sure if caller heard him so I didn't bring it up.  They guy beat me with Ace King, knowing I couldn't of had a King if he heard the guy.  Super bs
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That stinks, but that other guy wasn't folding AK no matter what. 

 
Getzlaf15 said:
5.    Six on Friday night.  They had 400 in this event last year.  Not sure what to expect this year with all the added tournaments after the Main. 

At the airport now. Expect to start right at the beginning of level 3 with 60 bb. 
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Good luck :)   Somehow I have managed 2 cashes myself (Out of a total of 3 events ever played - blew my perfect record last year).  Both were minimal though.  Obviously there is also Assani who has a dozen cashes according to the WSOP site.  Anyone keeping a notebook?  Anyway win those $$$ :)

-QG

 
Looked up myself on the site it shows my circuit event min-cash as a third - but that one don't count for my purposes.  All 12 of Assani's are in bracelet events.

-QG

 
QuizGuy66 said:
Looked up myself on the site it shows my circuit event min-cash as a third - but that one don't count for my purposes.  All 12 of Assani's are in bracelet events.

-QG
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I have 4 wsop. One circuit last December in LA.  I count it. All those guys are here in Vegas.  The winner in December won the 2500. Om8 stud 8 mix a few weeks ago. 

 
Getzlaf15 said:
I have 4 wsop. One circuit last December in LA.  I count it. All those guys are here in Vegas.  The winner in December won the 2500. Om8 stud 8 mix a few weeks ago. 
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Actually have a sick story from a circuit event I played (not sure if it's the one I min-cashed in).  Post-elimination I'm in the Harrah's food court thing and overheard this guy basically beating himself up over his play to the point where he said that he shouldn't even have the circuit ring he won he sucked so bad.  I can't remember if he was on the phone - I'm thinking he might have been, hell maybe we were talking - the mind gets foggy.  But the one detail I'll never forget - as I turned back to the counter to get/order my food I heard a very solid "THUD" from the direction of where he was standing which was over by the garbage can.  Pretty sure that he had actually chucked the ring.

-QG

 
Hopefully I'll be in a better position financially next year to play one of the online bracelet events from home if I can't go all the way to Vega$.  Took a swing at many of the freerolls (as well as for their Sunday 100k games)  but couldn't do better than a 3rd.

As for Hellmuth - whether it's a free pub game or a $10k talking out of turn is definitely a foul and a penalty would be appropriate (and if others were weren't penalized for doing it so much the worse).  At least a warning - but given the point in the tourney and his own track record a straight penalty would be reasonable.  He did do his best to make good (he says he penalized himself by skipping the first level of the next day of the Main Event) but it would be best if he finally took that tool out of his toolbox. 

Overall he's good for the game - can't have everyone be a boring droid.  That's why he's always on feature tables.  On a related but different note was Hellmuth implying that Ivey was able to say no to being put on feature tables (whether by coincidence or for sake of appearances Ivey was on feature table the next day).  Ivey asserted that the tv tables hurt his game b/c players don't want to look like a fool calling him (whether it's true or not is debatable).  Him being able to say no is b.s. but I can see perhaps the WSOP allowing there to be a limit to how many times in the early days they can put someone on the tv tables.  There's enough personalities that they should be able to do something like that.

-QG

 
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