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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
toshiba
Footballguy
I don't think anyone here is making that argument. Actually I think many of us are making that very argument that it is not socialism, what we want and many are calling Democratic Socialism is not Socialism. Welcome to understanding the point!!!
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
And all is not well with that model either. It's a lot different with a country the size of ours compared to these smaller nordic countries. Not to mention that some have back tracked their model to a more capitalist model. From 1870 through 1936, Sweden was the fastest growing economy in the world. But after 1975—when the Swedish state began to expand in earnest—Sweden’s economy noticeably slowed, falling from the 4th richest in the world to the 13th by the mid 1990s. Nordic voters are starting to take notice. Scandanavian governments have been paring down the size of their governments. Since the 1990s, the total taxation of the Swedish economy as a percentage of GDP has fallen more than 5%, while labor market reforms, such as Denmark’s cutting of unemployment benefits have helped Scandanavian economies rocket up measures of economic freedom.
They are returning to their free market roots.
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toshiba
Footballguy
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
In your original post, you said "Do some research on the Nordic countries now". I assumed this meant you thought the Nordic countries were in a bad spot or struggling or something.
I think the Nordic model is intriguing. I'm not saying it would all work here - but maybe it would. And if I were in policy or politics, I would definitely study it further to see what works and why.
Nordic Model -
- An elaborate social safety net, in addition to public services such as free education and universal healthcare[13] in a largely tax-funded system.[14]
- Strong property rights, contract enforcement, and overall ease of doing business.[15]
- Public pension plans.[13]
- Free trade combined with collective risk sharing (social programs, labour market institutions) which has provided a form of protection against the risks associated with economic openness.[13]
- Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.[13]
- Low levels of corruption.[13] In Transparency International's 2015 Corruption Perceptions Index, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Norway were ranked among the top 10 least corrupt of the 167 countries evaluated.[16]
- High percentage of workers belonging to a labour union.[17] In 2013, labour union density was 86% in Iceland, 69% in Finland, 68% in Sweden, 67% in Denmark and 52% in Norway. In comparison, labour union density was 14% in Mexico and 11% in the United States.[18] The lower union density in Norway is mainly explained by the absence of a Ghent system since 1938. In contrast, Denmark, Finland and Sweden all have union-run unemployment funds.[19]
- A partnership between employers, trade unions and the government, whereby these social partners negotiate the terms to regulating the workplace among themselves, rather than the terms being imposed by law.[20][21] Sweden has decentralised wage co-ordination while Finland is ranked the least flexible.[13] The changing economic conditions have given rise to fear among workers as well as resistance by trade unions in regards to reforms.[13] At the same time, reforms and favourable economic development seem to have reduced unemployment, which has traditionally been higher. Denmark's Social Democrats managed to push through reforms in 1994 and 1996 (see flexicurity).
- The United Nations World Happiness Reports show that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.[22] The Nordic countries place in the top 10 of the World Happiness Report 2018, with Finland and Norway taking the top spots.[23]
- The Nordic countries received the highest ranking for protecting workers rights on the International Trade Union Confederation's 2014 Global Rights Index, with Denmark being the only nation to receive a perfect score.[24]
- Sweden at 56.6% of GDP, Denmark at 51.7% and Finland at 48.6% reflect very high public spending.[25] One key reason for public spending is the large number of public employees. These employees work in various fields including education, healthcare, and for the government itself. They often have greater job security and make up around a third of the workforce (more than 38% in Denmark). Public spending in social transfers such as unemployment benefits and early-retirement programmes is high. In 2001, the wage-based unemployment benefits were around 90% of wage in Denmark and 80% in Sweden, compared to 75% in the Netherlands and 60% in Germany. The unemployed were also able to receive benefits several years before reductions, compared to quick benefit reduction in other countries.
- Public expenditure for health and education is significantly higher in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway in comparison to the OECD average.[26]
- Overall tax burdens (as a percentage of GDP) are high: Sweden (44.1%), Denmark (45.9%) and Finland (44.1%).[27] The Nordic countries have relatively flat tax rates, meaning that even those with medium and low incomes are taxed at relatively high levels.[28][29]
Don't Toews Me
Footballguy
I still don't get the whole catcalling thing.....
toshiba
Footballguy
The Nordic countries seem to be doing great.
According to the definitions in Wikipedia, they are examples of social democracy, not to be confused with democratic socialism.
According to the definitions in Wikipedia, they are examples of social democracy, not to be confused with democratic socialism.
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Also went into why nordic countries are back tracking to free markets and capitalism. Something Democratic Socialist aren't advocating
Dickies
Footballguy
Now that you have described what Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez are advocating for as not being socialism can you please stop calling it socialism?
the moops
Footballguy
This also seems to comport with how parties there are named (as translated into English).
The biggest party in Sweden is the Swedish Social Democratic Party. In Denmark, the party with the most seats in parliament is the Social Democrats. The oldest active party in Finland is the Social Democratic Party. (In Norway, it looks like they have a Conservative Party, Progress Party, and Labour Party. In Iceland, an Independence Party, Progressive Party, Reform Party...) Germany isn’t Nordic, but the second-biggest party there (after Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union) is the Social Democratic Party.
I maintain that “Democratic Socialist” is a weird and bad label if it’s meant to evoke the Nordic (and other European) models of non-socialism. The D and S words should be flipped.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Those countries are also small, sparsely populated, and racially homogeneous. In other words, they look nothing like the US.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Do you really think we have a free market? Just because money rigged the rules doesnt mean it's a free market,
toshiba
Footballguy
Exactly, we have more opportunities because of our diversity and strength. We should easily be able to make these things happen.
toshiba
Footballguy
That is why talking about labels is not productive for either side. Talking about polices, like Bernie does, is much better.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
But yet those homogeneous countries score higher than us in the undoubtedly-totally-scientific happiness scales. Go figure.
My point isn't that we should become less diverse or more restrictive of immigration. It's that it's silly to point to pseudo-science like "happiness" and try to infer something about economic policies while simultaneously ignoring other differences.
The Commish
Footballguy
To be fair...neither is the GOP. These tariffs they are cheering on are pretty much the opposite of "free markets".
JohnnyU
Footballguy
toshiba
Footballguy
Who is ignoring other differences? They just weren't a part of that study. Information often comes in pieces.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
While "happiness" is undoubtedly very difficult to measure, it seems to be a much more relevant metric to use when comparing economic systems than something like GDP.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's the best one we have and certainly better than socialism or those who prefer to use the term democratic socialism.
Yeah, I think small increases the chance that they are outliers, but it shouldn’t necessarily increase the chance that they are outliers in a positive rather than negative direction (unless there’s something to the idea that government power should be execrcised locally). Sparsely populated seems like a drawback. Economic activity seems to increase with a concentrated population — consider cities versus rural areas. I don’t see why racial homogeneity would matter once we control for obvious ethnic conflicts (Serbs-Croats, etc. — and it’s true that the U.S. has a history here that lingers.). Many of the very poorest countries are racially homogeneous too.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Those countries do well on other scales besides happiness. Standard of living, poverty rate, education, quality of life, GDP per capita, etc.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
toshiba
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Well, the advocates for capitalism vs socialism has been discussed plenty on this board. In short, I prefer less government, lower taxes, and free markets.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Most people are like you and don't understand the current government or the other options. Not because their dumb but no doubt some are, but lazy because they parrot talking point they hear as facts and do no actual research.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
The sheer size of the US population in comparison to Scandinavian countries is a big difference. They also charge very high taxes to pay for their healthcare and other freebies that aren't as free as one might think. These countries are scaling back government and starting to rely more on free markets.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Well, you have to, otherwise it would require you admit you carry a double standard and we know that's not going to happen. If you genuinely cared about "free markets" you'd be screaming at Trump from the rooftops for his approach here, but you're defending him instead.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
yes, there are differences. However, you don't think we should look to glean whatever we can from other countries who rank highly in many impirtant categories?
toshiba
Footballguy
Based on this definition you would prefer an system of government that resembles anarchy. So is that your ideal?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
Understood. So how does that affect their policies? Are there policies in the Nordic model that work well? COuld they work in the US?
Basically, I understand that the Scandinavian countries are different than the US. But its hard to deny that some things they do must work. They are the happiest countries in the world. So it'd be silly to just say, "Oh they are nothing like us. Nothing they do could work here." (I know that's not what you are saying).
whoknew
Footballguy
The article I read suggests that they have about a 45% tax rate across the board - regardless of income. That would be a pretty drastic change, no doubt.
I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. Can you give me an example? I think they would argue that they've always had free markets.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
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