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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread


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35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If you’re looking at me to defend AOC’s argument, look elsewhere. I don’t agree with her logic. I’m fine with raises, even much bigger raises, so long as you show me evidence that they’re needed. I don’t think it’s much of an issue to get excited about one way or the other. 

That being said, I strongly disagree with the notion, believed by so many people in both parties (including RW here and AOC alike) that most congresspeople are either corrupt or highly susceptible to corruption. It’s not true, never has been true, and the belief in it tends to corrode our political system IMO. 

If anyone honestly believes that, I wonder why they bother to vote or even take the time to take part in a message board discussion. If everyone in government is corrupt then there is nothing you can really do or say that will ever make any difference.

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If that’s the case he can do what I said.   He’s doing this instead because he knows she can’t say yes or every dog-whistling idiot with a fan base would feel like they could buy their way onto t

Yea, making sure everyone has access to healthcare is just as disgusting as white supremacy.  

Republican Rep. Ted Yoho on Saturday resigned from the board of the Christian anti-poverty organization Bread for the World days after he verbally attacked Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

13 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

So you don't believe money in politics is an issue?   These guys never make policies to serve themselves?

I believe they are a lot like car salesmen.  There are a handful of honest ones but they play in such a dirty industry that it's very difficult to even identify them.  

Of course it’s an issue. Of course they serve themselves. Of course their number one priority is often to preserve or increase their own power. 

But corruption is different from all of that. Taking money and going against the interests of your constituents is pretty rare. Taking money as a bribe or using your power to personally profit while in office- yes things things happen, but not to the majority. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

Of course it’s an issue. Of course they serve themselves. Of course their number one priority is often to preserve or increase their own power. 

But corruption is different from all of that. Taking money and going against the interests of your constituents is pretty rare. Taking money as a bribe or using your power to personally profit while in office- yes things things happen, but not to the majority. 

I reject this

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4 minutes ago, squistion said:

If anyone honestly believes that, I wonder why they bother to vote or even take the time to take part in a message board discussion. If everyone in government is corrupt then there is nothing you can really do or say that will ever make any difference.

The problem is that America has a presidential democracy.  It is the only one that I am aware of (I did a poli-sci thesis paper on this back in 2002, could be different now) that has survived permanently.  All others ultimately lead to authoritarianism.  Separating the legislative and executive branches sounds like a good idea in theory, but it ultimately leads to corruption.  Both in the executive and legislative branches.  It also tends to promote 2 party systems, which are also not ideal for reasons I won't get into.

Parliamentary democracy is ubiquitous in the western liberal world.  It certainly has issues too, including corruption, but they are more stable and less prone to lobbying corruption.

Mitch McConnell is holding up a bill to deal with election interference while getting paid by the voting machine companies.  Just one example of many.  Presidential democracy is fundamentally flawed.

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

But corruption is different from all of that. Taking money and going against the interests of your constituents is pretty rare. Taking money as a bribe or using your power to personally profit while in office- yes things things happen, but not to the majority. 

After his wife became Secretary of State, former President Bill Clinton began to collect speaking fees that often doubled or tripled what he had been charging earlier in his post White House years, bringing in millions of dollars from groups that included several with interests pending before the State Department, an ABC News review of financial disclosure records shows.

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3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

That while Tim is saying how rare it is for a politician to use their office for personal gain, his preferred presidential candidate did so quite openly.

Tim said "these things happen, but not to the majority."  Doesn't seem like one example really has much to say about that.  

 

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19 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
29 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What point are you trying to make here?

That while Tim is saying how rare it is for a politician to use their office for personal gain, his preferred presidential candidate did so quite openly.

The willingness to stretch the definitions of words to score political points (e.g., "quite openly") is part of the reason why Trump has been able to so easily cross the boundaries of what was once considered to be the limit of normal.

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21 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

That while Tim is saying how rare it is for a politician to use their office for personal gain, his preferred presidential candidate did so quite openly.

She did, and I don’t like it. But it’s still not common. 

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Let me offer a personal anecdote, which is part of the reason I feel strongly about this today: this morning at a shopping center I manage in Lakewood CA we had the grand opening of a new  YMCA gymnastic center, which is going to service hundreds of kids in the area. The project was very difficult to do and really only got done because of the personal involvement of Congresswoman Linda Sanchez, who I just met for the first time today. She gave selflessly of her time for this; there is no “big money” involved, just people trying to help out their community. This is what congresspeople do most of the time and it doesn’t make the news. 

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23 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Tim said "these things happen, but not to the majority."  Doesn't seem like one example really has much to say about that.  

 

Sure.  But I will never tire of reminding Tim that he supported a corrupt candidate.  (Not that Trump isn't corrupt too, of course).

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Let me offer a personal anecdote, which is part of the reason I feel strongly about this today: this morning at a shopping center I manage in Lakewood CA we had the grand opening of a new  YMCA gymnastic center, which is going to service hundreds of kids in the area. The project was very difficult to do and really only got done because of the personal involvement of Congresswoman Linda Sanchez, who I just met for the first time today. She gave selflessly of her time for this; there is no “big money” involved, just people trying to help out their community. This is what congresspeople do most of the time and it doesn’t make the news. 

No one ever said politicians don't support good causes or do good things.  It's not either/or here.

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15 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

OK, so your point was just to try to zing Tim?  Have fun with that.  

Hey look, I know the way to get on SportsCenter is sinking the deep three or some crazy alley-oop pass, but taking the nice, reliable lay-up is what ultimately wins games.

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I'll give Cortez a strong Yes on this.

- It's not the sentiment about whether impeachment is is or is not warranted. It's that she actually gave a thoughtful response to Trump on twitter.

It constantly frustrated me in the campaign and really since that no one noticed that Trump almost never @'s people he criticizes on twitter. It's possible he can't thread or spell or whatever himself but IMO he is not really talking at or to people online, he's just the guy in the bar yelling at the TV. he specifically does not want a response. And rarely does anyone engage him back. He should be regularly engaged and challenged on his tweets and quickly. Cortez has a thoughtful response and she goes right back at him as she should. I don't know why this hasn't happened more often.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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On 6/14/2019 at 1:23 PM, zoonation said:

The problem is that America has a presidential democracy.  It is the only one that I am aware of (I did a poli-sci thesis paper on this back in 2002, could be different now) that has survived permanently.  All others ultimately lead to authoritarianism.  Separating the legislative and executive branches sounds like a good idea in theory, but it ultimately leads to corruption.  Both in the executive and legislative branches.  It also tends to promote 2 party systems, which are also not ideal for reasons I won't get into.

Parliamentary democracy is ubiquitous in the western liberal world.  It certainly has issues too, including corruption, but they are more stable and less prone to lobbying corruption.

Mitch McConnell is holding up a bill to deal with election interference while getting paid by the voting machine companies.  Just one example of many.  Presidential democracy is fundamentally flawed.

Hey, another board parliamentarian. That makes (counts fingers)......three now. Three!

All of my revolutions start slow but some are downright glacial.

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20 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'll give Cortez a strong Yes on this.

- It's not the sentiment about whether impeachment is is or is not warranted. It's that she actually gave a thoughtful response to Trump on twitter.

It constantly frustrated me in the campaign and really since that no one noticed that Trump almost never @'s people he criticizes on twitter. It's possible he can't thread or spell or whatever himself but IMO he is not really talking at or to people online, he's just the guy in the bar yelling at the TV. he specifically does not want a response. And rarely does anyone engage him back. He should be regularly engaged and challenged on his tweets and quickly. Cortez has a thoughtful response and she goes right back at him as she should. I don't know why this hasn't happened more often.

:lmao: at the comments.  Wow Trump supporters hate her. 

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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

He should be regularly engaged and challenged on his tweets and quickly. Cortez has a thoughtful response and she goes right back at him as she should. I don't know why this hasn't happened more often.

Exactly.  You fight back against a lying conman fast and with facts. He won't even engage most of the time  because he is just pulling things out of his ###.  Democrats need a public voice to engage him and keep him from setting the spin.

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6 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Not sure if that is her foot in her own mouth or Bezos'. This woman continues to impress in the arena of stupid.

Your statement is not founded in any fact at all. Also, it is rather rude to assert someone as "stupid" when she has demonstrated nothing of the sort.

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3 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'll give Cortez a strong Yes on this.

- It's not the sentiment about whether impeachment is is or is not warranted. It's that she actually gave a thoughtful response to Trump on twitter.

It constantly frustrated me in the campaign and really since that no one noticed that Trump almost never @'s people he criticizes on twitter. It's possible he can't thread or spell or whatever himself but IMO he is not really talking at or to people online, he's just the guy in the bar yelling at the TV. he specifically does not want a response. And rarely does anyone engage him back. He should be regularly engaged and challenged on his tweets and quickly. Cortez has a thoughtful response and she goes right back at him as she should. I don't know why this hasn't happened more often.

I strongly disagree with this.  This may put me in the "old man yells at clouds" territory, but I do not like seeing elected officials beef with one another on social media, especially in an environment as inhospitable to nuanced argument as Twitter.  AOC is absolutely right that Trump should be impeached, but the Twitter aspect just degrades the level of discourse that much more.  Let's not normalize Trump's mode of communication.

Edit: I know he doesn't post much anymore, but this is practically a bat-signal for @Yankee23Fan to come by and school me on how politicians have always been openly contemptuous of one another.

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I strongly disagree with this.  This may put me in the "old man yells at clouds" territory, but I do not like seeing elected officials beef with one another on social media, especially in an environment as inhospitable to nuanced argument as Twitter.  AOC is absolutely right that Trump should be impeached, but the Twitter aspect just degrades the level of discourse that much more.  Let's not normalize Trump's mode of communication.

You should always engage a conman with facts. Otherwise his lying becomes the truth to those he has conned.  That's why we are were we are .

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I strongly disagree with this.  This may put me in the "old man yells at clouds" territory, but I do not like seeing elected officials beef with one another on social media, especially in an environment as inhospitable to nuanced argument as Twitter.  AOC is absolutely right that Trump should be impeached, but the Twitter aspect just degrades the level of discourse that much more.  Let's not normalize Trump's mode of communication.

Edit: I know he doesn't post much anymore, but this is practically a bat-signal for @Yankee23Fan to come by and school me on how politicians have always been openly contemptuous of one another.

:lol:

If it matters I type a lot of posts and then erase them instead of hitting submit reply.   Discretion better part of valor and all that. 

Yea,  Twitter is the new pamphlet for politicians to hit each other.  Trump has mutated so much at this point though I don't know if it's a net positive or negative.  He's a terrible barometer to use for discussing "normal discourse and/or debate. "

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3 hours ago, Mile High said:

You should always engage a conman with facts. Otherwise his lying becomes the truth to those he has conned.  That's why we are were we are .

Come on. We arent where we are because people didnt argue with him on twitter and then say bye at the end. 

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Amazon slams AOC for saying it pays ‘starvation wages’

By Chris Perez

June 17, 2019 | 8:53pm

Amazon clapped back at Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Monday — blasting the Democratic congresswoman in a tweet — for comments she made about the company’s workers being paid “starvation wages.”

“@AOC is just wrong,” Amazon tweeted, using its @AmazonNews account.

“Amazon is a leader on pay at $15 min wage + full benefits from day one,” the company said. “We also lobby to raise federal min wage.”

Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) was speaking Sunday on ABC’s “This Week” about Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos possibly losing his status as a billionaire under a “true progressive program” when she drew the ire of company officials.

“[Bezos] being a billionaire is predicated on paying people starvation wages and stripping them of their ability to access health care,” Ocasio-Cortez said, adding that she didn’t care “whether Jeff Bezos is a billionaire or not.”

_________

She's the Donald Trump of the left.  Just makes stuff up.   Our dear hero.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, jon_mx said:

 

Amazon slams AOC for saying it pays ‘starvation wages’

By Chris Perez

June 17, 2019 | 8:53pm

Amazon clapped back at Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Monday — blasting the Democratic congresswoman in a tweet — for comments she made about the company’s workers being paid “starvation wages.”

“@AOC is just wrong,” Amazon tweeted, using its @AmazonNews account.

“Amazon is a leader on pay at $15 min wage + full benefits from day one,” the company said. “We also lobby to raise federal min wage.”

Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) was speaking Sunday on ABC’s “This Week” about Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos possibly losing his status as a billionaire under a “true progressive program” when she drew the ire of company officials.

“[Bezos] being a billionaire is predicated on paying people starvation wages and stripping them of their ability to access health care,” Ocasio-Cortez said, adding that she didn’t care “whether Jeff Bezos is a billionaire or not.”

_________

She's the Donald Trump of the left.  Just makes stuff up.   Our dear hero.  

 

 

Shocking that a company spokeperson would stand up for their company's policies

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3 hours ago, jon_mx said:

 

Amazon slams AOC for saying it pays ‘starvation wages’

By Chris Perez

June 17, 2019 | 8:53pm

Amazon clapped back at Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Monday — blasting the Democratic congresswoman in a tweet — for comments she made about the company’s workers being paid “starvation wages.”

“@AOC is just wrong,” Amazon tweeted, using its @AmazonNews account.

“Amazon is a leader on pay at $15 min wage + full benefits from day one,” the company said. “We also lobby to raise federal min wage.”

Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) was speaking Sunday on ABC’s “This Week” about Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos possibly losing his status as a billionaire under a “true progressive program” when she drew the ire of company officials. 

“[Bezos] being a billionaire is predicated on paying people starvation wages and stripping them of their ability to access health care,” Ocasio-Cortez said, adding that she didn’t care “whether Jeff Bezos is a billionaire or not.”

_________

She's the Donald Trump of the left.  Just makes stuff up.   Our dear hero.  

 

 

They announced they would raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour EIGHT MONTHS AGO. And that's just in the US. Bezos' billionaire fortune was predicated on paying people low wages as they toiled away in horrible conditions. Are you under the impression that Bezos just became a billionaire within the last eight months?

So to review:

- What AOC said was a bit melodramatic but entirely legitimate. Bezos became the richest man on earth while paying his workers very poorly.  She was not "making stuff up" in any way, shape or form.

- In your rush to hate on AOC you blindly believed a large corporation's PR machine. I have nothing to add to this, it speaks for itself.

-They've also been a longtime target of Sanders. To my recollection you've never had anything to say about his melodramatic criticism of Amazon. What is it that's different about AOC that leads you to criticize her and not him?  I can't possibly guess. Truly a mystery.

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

They announced they would raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour EIGHT MONTHS AGO. And that's just in the US. Bezos' billionaire fortune was predicated on paying people low wages as they toiled away in horrible conditions. Are you under the impression that Bezos just became a billionaire within the last eight months?

So to review:

- What AOC said was a bit melodramatic but entirely legitimate. Bezos became the richest man on earth while paying his workers very poorly.  She was not "making stuff up" in any way, shape or form.

- In your rush to hate on AOC you blindly believed a large corporation's PR machine. I have nothing to add to this, it speaks for itself.

-They've also been a longtime target of Sanders. To my recollection you've never had anything to say about his melodramatic criticism of Amazon. What is it that's different about AOC that leads you to criticize her and not him?  I can't possibly guess. Truly a mystery.

 

 

 

 

Her quote was trash.  How are they stripping their ability to get health care?  She later double-down on stupid with her response which included “I think it’s certainly a part of the equation when you have a very large workforce and you underpay every single person.”....i know people right out of college getting six figure salaries and big signing bonuses.  How is that underplayed.   She is such a blowhard, but keep defending it please.  

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Her quote was trash.  How are they stripping their ability to get health care?  She later double-down on stupid with her response which included “I think it’s certainly a part of the equation when you have a very large workforce and you underpay every single person.”....i know people right out of college getting six figure salaries and big signing bonuses.  How is that underplayed.   She is such a blowhard, but keep defending it please.  

"Uh, see, what I meant to say was that what she said about their access to health care was wrong!"

I don't know what she meant by stripping access to health care. You'd have to ask her.

What I do know is not to trust Amazon PR if they contradict her on that point, or to believe you when you refuse to acknowledge you were dead wrong when you kowtowed to Amazon PR instead of taking five seconds to do a google search about when they increased their minimum wage.

 

 

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I didn’t like the tone of her comments. Her actual specific criticism may have substance (I’d have to read up more on the past practices of Amazon; I don’t know the details at this point) but her tone was that of a leftist attacking the wealthy for being wealthy, which is also one of the things that bothers me most about Bernie Sanders. She is doing the demonization thing that bothers me so much about our society these days. 

I don’t agree with jon’s analysis; AOC is nether stupid nor does she make things up like Trump. Amazon has been a target of the left for a long time now and her ideas are pretty typical and not especially original. 

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8 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Right wing news is going to go crazy on her latest tweet about concentration camps on the border.

Kind of an interesting article she links however: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/

The problem is stated in the title and second sentence of that article: these days we DO associate concentration camps with Hitler’s death camps. We shouldn’t necessarily, but we do. Therefore AOC’s rhetoric on this matter is going to infuriate people and she knows it. In this manner (not in fabricating stuff) she is indeed like Trump. 

The situation in those detention areas is despicable enough; there is no need to exaggerate. AOC’s hyperbole isn’t helping anything IMO. 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t like the tone of her comments. Her actual specific criticism may have substance (I’d have to read up more on the past practices of Amazon; I don’t know the details at this point) but her tone was that of a leftist attacking the wealthy for being wealthy, which is also one of the things that bothers me most about Bernie Sanders. She is doing the demonization thing that bothers me so much about our society these days. 

I don’t agree with jon’s analysis; AOC is nether stupid nor does she make things up like Trump. Amazon has been a target of the left for a long time now and her ideas are pretty typical and not especially original. 

So you believe her when she says every single Amazon employee is underpaid?  That is not some Trumponian-like lie?  

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Interesting and troubling historical fact: what was the first nation  to have concentration camps? It was the British, during the Boer War (1899-1902). They put the Boer (Afrikaner) women and children in camps and 30,000 of them died of plague. 

(Some historians regard the Native American reservations that we established in the 19th century as the original concentration camps, and there is some merit to this. There is also some question as to whether or not the Confederate POW camp at Andersonville would fit the definition. But it was the British who invented the term.) 

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

So you believe her when she says every single Amazon employee is underpaid?  That is not some Trumponian-like lie?  

It is Trumpian like, but it’s an exaggeration, hyperbole, rather than an outright fabrication, which Trump also does often , but she doesn’t. 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

So you believe her when she says every single Amazon employee is underpaid?  That is not some Trumponian-like lie?  

If you think saying "every single person" instead of "almost every person" is a "Trumponian-like lie," you might want to consider paying a lot more attention to Trump and a lot less attention to a first-term congresswoman from another state.  Exaggerations and rhetorical flourishes whose meaning is fairly obvious to anyone applying common sense to them are not the same as outright fabrications.

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Just now, timschochet said:

It is Trumpian like, but it’s an exaggeration, hyperbole, rather than an outright fabrication, which Trump also does often , but she doesn’t. 

A kid with a 4-year degree getting $115k plus a $30k signing bonus is not underpaid.   There are tend of thousands of Amazon employees who would be impossible to classify as underpaid by any reasonable definition.  That makes it a lie.   

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2 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

If you think saying "every single person" instead of "almost every person" is a "Trumponian-like lie," you might want to consider paying a lot more attention to Trump and a lot less attention to a first-term congresswoman from another state.  Exaggerations and rhetorical flourishes whose meaning is fairly obvious to anyone applying common sense to them are not the same as outright fabrications.

You just answered the two-year old question of how can people defend Trump lies.   Just keep excusing and provide rationalizations for those lies.   

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1 hour ago, TobiasFunke said:

-They've also been a longtime target of Sanders. To my recollection you've never had anything to say about his melodramatic criticism of Amazon. What is it that's different about AOC that leads you to criticize her and not him?  I can't possibly guess. Truly a mystery.

What exactly do you mean?

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

A kid with a 4-year degree getting $115k plus a $30k signing bonus is not underpaid.   There are tend of thousands of Amazon employees who would be impossible to classify as underpaid by any reasonable definition.  That makes it a lie.   

If I had to guess, AOC would regard the example you’re offering as an “executive” of Amazon, and not an “employee”; that’s typical leftist terminology. I strongly disagree with this type of thinking but I doubt that in her mind it’s a lie. 

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