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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (5 Viewers)

zoonation said:
of course not.  he doesn't read many of the ones he himself links to.  tim has outed him several times.  old hat.

and, it is totally america 2019, where the outrage against a controversial point is that too many people will, through ignorance, conflate it with something else.
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Ah....a Tobias like broad generalization that I'm ignorant. You guys just can't help yourselves. Just a few days ago you called us sycophants.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Of course she did.  You know it, I know it, and she knows it.  

It's not the sort of thing to get worked up about -- people make bad Nazi analogies all the time.  They're a staple of internet discourse.  But there's also no need to be willfully dishonest about what she was saying.  She should just walk it back and move on.
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she already clarified that she was not referring to WWII concentration/death camps, which were orders of magnitude worse than what is going on here.  

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Concentration camps existed long before the Nazi camps.  And some of the camps during WWI were pretty reasonable places.  People certainly weren't dying every day in every camp.  At least at first (which is kind of the point here.)

And the definition being used here was generated prior to Trump -- based on the common features of ALL prior camp systems, not just the worst ones -- in 2013.  Which is also when the book referenced in the article AOC Tweeted was initiated.  Trump is not mentioned in that book, though both Obama and GWB come in for criticism.
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Umm, no not really. I guess if you define "reasonable" as no gas chambers. But other than that...no. Concentration camps are not the same as refugee camps or detention centers. Concentration camps hold political prisoners- people who are deemed as "undesirable" by the state.

 
John Blutarsky said:
That doesn't matter. When most people hear the term concentration camps they think of Nazi Germany. That isn't hard to understand. She made a poor choice of words.
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Why are you generalizing what most people think? You don't know what I think when I hear "concentration camps." Please, do not generalize.

 
supermike80 said:
I quit this guy a LONG time ago......Cause of this kind of stuff... 
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If you quit me, then do it. If you want to respond to me and ask me to defend something I've posted, then do that instead. Either way works for me.

But don't reply to a post from somebody else that I rightfully ignored (I didn't say Trump supporters don't care about kids, I said they don't seem to care about what has happened to many kids at the detention centers as a consequence of Trump's policies) so you can insult me without having to engage me. Pick a lane, please.

 
TobiasFunke said:
All due respect but you are waaaay off here, Joe.

I said:

"I mean that there's a microscope on AOC because conservative news knows their viewers/readers love to hate on young women of color."

You call that an accusation. Who am I accusing? Conservative news organizations?  I guess Their viewers in general? I'd say it's more of a characterization than an accusation, but fine.  Both are accusations/characterizations I could have defended, if you'd asked.

But you didn't ask about those claims.  Instead you asked me about "conservatives here on this forum," a group I hadn't even mentioned in the previous post.  So there's the first problem with your angle here, IMO.  This is why @parasaurolophus said it seemed like you were trying to trap me.  I hadn't said anything about specific posters or even posters in general, and you chose to steer the conversation towards that subject.

You then asked me if I thought that that they "love to hate on young women of color." I gave you my honest and careful answer: "some of them, probably."  If anything that was too cautious- in a group this large of course there are going to be some bigots, just like there's probably some people who have committed sexual assault or driven drunk or cheered for an opponent's injury or drank milk directly out of the carton. That's not an accusation, it's a statistical probability/educated guess. I was even careful to say that I didn't think it was true of most of them. So there's the second problem. The third problem IMO was when you said I was claiming that some specific people "can't think for themselves," an accusation I hadn't made.

This isn't really related but as for the Trump thing: you pressed me on why I thought some members of a group were OK with hating on women of color. As much as you may hate to admit this (and I totally understand why you do), I am 100% certain that Trump supporters are, on average, more bigoted than non-supporters, on average. There is a TON of evidence on this. So if you ask me why I think some small percentage of a larger group of people are bigots, and that larger group has been shown to contain a disproportionate number of bigots, that is simply evidence supporting my conclusion. As is their support for a politician who runs on openly bigoted policies and makes openly bigoted statements, of course. Supporting Trump doesn't make you a bigot, obviously, but if you take a sample of 20 people who all supported Trump and ask if some of them are bigots, the fact that they voted for Trump is a fairly solid argument for "yes."
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I don`t even think of Cortez as a "woman of color"  My wife is Spanish and has dark hair so I guess she is a woman of color as well..just never think of people that way. I mean many people on the news speak poorly of Pelosi, Warren and Clinton, and they are as honky as they come.

 
Juxtatarot said:
Did you read the article?
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according to that article the definition of concentration camp is...

the definition of that in my book is, mass detention of civilians without trial
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So according to her, city jail is a concentration camp. That is a really loose usage of the term concentration camp.

 
John Blutarsky said:
Ah....a Tobias like broad generalization that I'm ignorant. You guys just can't help yourselves. Just a few days ago you called us sycophants.
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you need to go to forum chat board victims anonymous.  good gravy.  You spend so much time here policing other posters and whine.  It is like you are looking to get offend and make everything about you.

"Good one Joe!  wait, don't forget to give him #### for what he says we say about kids!!!!!"

just stop.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
From one of the links in the article...

This is probably the single biggest reason for the conditions being experienced. That is not what the article itself would have you believe. 
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I didn't get the impression from the article that the author or the experts quoted would deny that the increase has heavily contributed to the problem.  No doubt, though, that the slant of the article is to be critical of the current administration.

 
zoonation said:
she already clarified that she was not referring to WWII concentration/death camps, which were orders of magnitude worse than what is going on here.  
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She clarified it afterwards.

Look, AOC is not the first person to do this, nor is she even close to the worst offender. I still remember reading a pamphlet from PETA in which chicken pens were compared to Auschwitz. Then there was the NRA magazine that warned that universal background checks were the first step on the road to Dachau. Compared to those rather jolly arguments, AOC's statement was mild indeed. Still, she did make the comparison, and Ivan is right: we know what she was getting at. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
Do you think there are posters here who love to hate women of color?

Seems like an unfair question, right?  Puts you on the spot in a no-win situation, doesn't it? If you answer yes, someone might take offense and think you're referring to them and/or their friends even though you've done no such thing. But if you answer no, you're downplaying the omnipresence of bigotry and misogyny in our culture as well as study after study demonstrating their frequency among certain demographics, including political ones.

That's exactly what you did to me. I didn't say a single word about posters here until you asked me the question. And when you did, I tried to couch it in the most innocuous terms I could, saying "some, probably" and clarifying that I thought most weren't bigoted themselves but were instead taking cues from the media they consume, as we all do.
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Finally something I agree with you on.

If you were to ask me: "Do you think there are posters here who love to hate women of color?", my answer would be very clear:

No. I don't think that.

That's a huge and heavy accusation to put on someone. Even worse when I don't even know the people here well enough to know their real name.  

And if I were to make an accusation that strong, I'd have a long list of backup with, you know actual things they've said here, before I'd make a statement like that. 

I'd say the same thing if you asked me if I thought we had rapists or child molesters or anything else like that here. You might call it naive. I'd call it being careful before flippantly throwing out serious accusations when I don't have a clue if my accusations are correct. 

 
I want to get back for a moment to the article that @John Blutarsky linked, stating how unpopular AOC is in her own district. I won't comment on the accuracy of the article, nor attack the messenger. But I will say that I am 100% confident that AOC will be re-elected, rather easily, within this district, pretty much for as long as she wants to be a congresswoman.

 
parasaurolophus said:
according to that article the definition of concentration camp is...

So according to her, city jail is a concentration camp. That is a really loose usage of the term concentration camp.
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Maybe it is.  That would be an interesting question to get her take on.  As a society we have struggled with providing a speedy trial.  That's something to be embarrassed about as well.

 
timschochet said:
I want to get back for a moment to the article that @John Blutarsky linked, stating how unpopular AOC is in her own district. I won't comment on the accuracy of the article, nor attack the messenger. But I will say that I am 100% confident that AOC will be re-elected, rather easily, within this district, pretty much for as long as she wants to be a congresswoman.
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I said that about Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick in Detroit.  That prediction did not age well.

 
John Blutarsky said:
As Sho says....keep it about the topic and not the poster. You called me ignorant. I have not said anything like that to you. HTH
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you saying keep it about the topic is the height of irony.  anyway, I'm not getting into the mud on this with you.  IMO you do post more substantively than most (if not all) Trump supporters on this board.

i apologize for indirectly implying that you were ignorant.

 
John Blutarsky said:
Weak Mario....very weak. I didn't say all people. Most, many , several etc.
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Hold on, hold on. The post string that began this whole "generalizing" thing today didn't say "all" either. In fact, the words "most, many, several," were not used either. Yet, here we are. I don't have the time but while, "love to hate on young women of color," may not be 100% factual, there have been posters in this very thread that have posted negative nonsense about her. So, before any one starts throwing stones, make sure you're not living in a glass house.

 
timschochet said:
I want to get back for a moment to the article that @John Blutarsky linked, stating how unpopular AOC is in her own district. I won't comment on the accuracy of the article, nor attack the messenger. But I will say that I am 100% confident that AOC will be re-elected, rather easily, within this district, pretty much for as long as she wants to be a congresswoman.
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We shall see. If we both are here when that time comes we should have a friendly wager on it. Not money but something that is from our region....for example...I'm in the Midwest and if you like steaks I would wager Omaha Steaks. :thumbup:

 
To add @TobiasFunke - I'm sorry to be so confrontational with you on this. That's not my preference. 

But I think this is a bigger issue in general with how we operate as a society. I think we generally should be way less quick to label people with awful things until we know more clearly what we're talking about. This is more about society than you. I just picked your example today. I don't mean to be railing on you. But I think this is important. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Finally something I agree with you on.

If you were to ask me: "Do you think there are posters here who love to hate women of color?", my answer would be very clear:

No. I don't think that.

That's a huge and heavy accusation to put on someone. Even worse when I don't even know the people here well enough to know their real name.  

And if I were to make an accusation that strong, I'd have a long list of backup with, you know actual things they've said here, before I'd make a statement like that. 

I'd say the same thing if you asked me if I thought we had rapists or child molesters or anything else like that here. You might call it naive. I'd call it being careful before flippantly throwing out serious accusations when I don't have a clue if my accusations are correct. 
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How can it be an accusation if no specific person is identified as the offender? If I see someone dead on the street of gunshot wounds and I say "somebody murdered him!", I'm not leveling an accusation against any specific person as the murderer.

 
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Mario Kart said:
Hold on, hold on. The post string that began this whole "generalizing" thing today didn't say "all" either. In fact, the words "most, many, several," were not used either. Yet, here we are. I don't have the time but while, "love to hate on young women of color," may not be 100% factual, there have been posters in this very thread that have posted negative nonsense about her. So, before any one starts throwing stones, make sure you're not living in a glass house.
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What? Now you are implying that "love to hate on young women of color"?  I haven't seen anyone post in this thread anything like that. She made a poor choice of words. So if anyone writes something negative we get labeled like that. That is exactly what @Joe Bryant doesn't want to see.

 
John Blutarsky said:
Yep, Tobias has been called out many times by Joe for doing that. I suggest you go read his post. You have done the same thing the last few days...calling Trump supporters ignorant and sycophants.
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I've read it.  but there is nothing more board-coppy than you being all "Joe!  Don't forget about this too!"  The fact that you then do your "keep it about the topic" shtick is nauseating.

 
zoonation said:
of course not.  he doesn't read many of the ones he himself links to.  tim has outed him several times.  old hat.

and, it is totally america 2019, where the outrage against a controversial point is that too many people will, through ignorance, conflate it with something else.
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It’s the same thing he did under his many previous IDs .

 
Joe Bryant said:
To add @TobiasFunke - I'm sorry to be so confrontational with you on this. That's not my preference. 

But I think this is a bigger issue in general with how we operate as a society. I think we generally should be much more less quick to label people with awful things until we know more clearly what we're talking about. This is more about society than you. I just picked your example today. I don't mean to be railing on you. But I think this is important. 
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Hi Joe,

You've given me similar warnings in the past. And I'm not complaining about them, even though at the times they were given I felt, like Tobias, that you were missing some nuance and context. It's absolutely your prerogative. And as a general rule I agree with you about generalizing and especially about demonizing other people by attempting to decide for them what their intent is: it's absolutely terrible for our society. I've done it plenty in the past myself, and it's wrong.

That being said, I firmly believe that it is worse now than its been because of a dilemma, a pandora's box that was opened when Donald Trump was elected as President. Many of us believe, with very good reason, that he is a bigot and a racist. He is also the leader of the Republican party and therefore the conservative movement in this country. Most of us don't want to believe that they are bigots and racists as well. I certainly don't believe it. And yet they continue to support him, in ever larger percentages. That creates a real problem for many of us in terms of political discussion, and it really opens the floodgates for the kind of generalizations that we both agree are so awful. I hope that you'll keep this dilemma, which none of us created, in mind when you judge the volatility of certain comments that are made in this forum. 

 
timschochet said:
Hi Joe,

You've given me similar warnings in the past. And I'm not complaining about them, even though at the times they were given I felt, like Tobias, that you were missing some nuance and context. It's absolutely your prerogative. And as a general rule I agree with you about generalizing and especially about demonizing other people by attempting to decide for them what their intent is: it's absolutely terrible for our society. I've done it plenty in the past myself, and it's wrong.

That being said, I firmly believe that it is worse now than its been because of a dilemma, a pandora's box that was opened when Donald Trump was elected as President. Many of us believe, with very good reason, that he is a bigot and a racist. He is also the leader of the Republican party and therefore the conservative movement in this country. Most of us don't want to believe that they are bigots and racists as well. I certainly don't believe it. And yet they continue to support him, in ever larger percentages. That creates a real problem for many of us in terms of political discussion, and it really opens the floodgates for the kind of generalizations that we both agree are so awful. I hope that you'll keep this dilemma, which none of us created, in mind when you judge the volatility of certain comments that are made in this forum. 
Click to expand...

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Did she say they were running concentration camps identical to those in WW2, or did she just say there were concentration camps? If it's the latter, why did you bring up the former?  That seems unfair to her.
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Not really.  You can’t invoke concentration camps without invoking the Holocaust concentration camps.  You know this as well as I do.

Either way, concentration camps in general are for forced labor or mass execution, neither of which is happening.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Finally something I agree with you on.

If you were to ask me: "Do you think there are posters here who love to hate women of color?", my answer would be very clear:

No. I don't think that. 

That's a huge and heavy accusation to put on someone. Even worse when I don't even know the people here well enough to know their real name.  

And if I were to make an accusation that strong, I'd have a long list of backup with, you know actual things they've said here, before I'd make a statement like that. 

I'd say the same thing if you asked me if I thought we had rapists or child molesters or anything else like that here. You might call it naive. I'd call it being careful before flippantly throwing out serious accusations when I don't have a clue if my accusations are correct. 
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1. I'm sorry, but if you don't think there are posters here who "love to hate women of color" you are almost certainly wrong IMO. There are a lot of posters here, and there's a lot of bigotry and misogyny out there in the world, and as much as anyone you know that sometimes those two groups unfortunately overlap and that sometimes you all miss that overlap for long periods of time. You had a poster who was here for many years until he posted stuff from Stormfront IIRC- do you think he was magically not racist until that very moment?  You've got posters still here who spent days exchanging racist puns about Native Americans in response to some Liz Warren development a couple months ago. You have people here who instantly assume that any woman who accuses a man of sexual assault is in it for the fame or money, a number of whom you had to ban for inappropriate comments during the Kavanaugh debacle. And that's just the stuff they're willing to post here. So I wouldn't call it naive to guess that there aren't any bigots or misogynists around here, I'd call it ... something less generous ;)

2. Regarding the bolded- the whole point is that I didn't put it on someone. I made an honest, generic guess in response to your question. You can tell I didn't put it on someone, because if I asked you who I put it on you wouldn't be able to give me an answer.  I was careful not to say anything that could be construed that way. And if you asked me the same question I'd give you the same answer :shrug:

 
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timschochet said:
Hi Joe,

You've given me similar warnings in the past. And I'm not complaining about them, even though at the times they were given I felt, like Tobias, that you were missing some nuance and context. It's absolutely your prerogative. And as a general rule I agree with you about generalizing and especially about demonizing other people by attempting to decide for them what their intent is: it's absolutely terrible for our society. I've done it plenty in the past myself, and it's wrong.

That being said, I firmly believe that it is worse now than its been because of a dilemma, a pandora's box that was opened when Donald Trump was elected as President. Many of us believe, with very good reason, that he is a bigot and a racist. He is also the leader of the Republican party and therefore the conservative movement in this country. Most of us don't want to believe that they are bigots and racists as well. I certainly don't believe it. And yet they continue to support him, in ever larger percentages. That creates a real problem for many of us in terms of political discussion, and it really opens the floodgates for the kind of generalizations that we both agree are so awful. I hope that you'll keep this dilemma, which none of us created, in mind when you judge the volatility of certain comments that are made in this forum. 
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Thank you. I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree at all that the tone Trump has is a big part of the problem.

I've said it before, it's a weird time in our country when I think the President of the United States would likely be banned from posting on my site. 

Now maybe that says more about me and the kind of site I want us to have. I don't know.

But it makes me more determined than ever that we're going to do things in what I think are the right way. And I think that means being careful about making awful and what I feel can be flippant assumptions of people without serious evidence to back up the claim. 

I'm fully aware I'm likely tilting at windmills. But it's what we're trying to do here. Thanks for helping us.

 
John Blutarsky said:
Maybe you should stop insulting people here by calling them ignorant and sycophants.
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agree.  that language is inflammatory and doesn't need to be used.  unless of course we are talking about Lindsey Graham, who is the textbook definition of a sycophant.

my apologies again.

 
timschochet said:
Hi Joe,

You've given me similar warnings in the past. And I'm not complaining about them, even though at the times they were given I felt, like Tobias, that you were missing some nuance and context. It's absolutely your prerogative. And as a general rule I agree with you about generalizing and especially about demonizing other people by attempting to decide for them what their intent is: it's absolutely terrible for our society. I've done it plenty in the past myself, and it's wrong.

That being said, I firmly believe that it is worse now than its been because of a dilemma, a pandora's box that was opened when Donald Trump was elected as President. Many of us believe, with very good reason, that he is a bigot and a racist. He is also the leader of the Republican party and therefore the conservative movement in this country. Most of us don't want to believe that they are bigots and racists as well. I certainly don't believe it. And yet they continue to support him, in ever larger percentages. That creates a real problem for many of us in terms of political discussion, and it really opens the floodgates for the kind of generalizations that we both agree are so awful. I hope that you'll keep this dilemma, which none of us created, in mind when you judge the volatility of certain comments that are made in this forum. 
Click to expand...
Here is the problem in a nutshell. What you believe is a thoughtful post is actually a backhanded jab at Trump voters. Perhaps the nuance is lost on you

 
HellToupee said:
Here is the problem in a nutshell. What you believe is a thoughtful post is actually a backhanded jab at Trump voters. Perhaps the nuance is lost on you
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Is it a jab?

I made 4 points in that post that could be related to Trump voters:

1. Many of us believe that Trump is a bigot and a racist.

2. Most of us don't believe that Trump's supporters are bigots or racists.

3. Yet they continue to support him.

4. This creates a dilemma that is difficult for some of us (including me) to reconcile.

Where exactly is the "jab" here? You may disagree with some or all of these statements, but exactly how did I attack Trump supporters? Please explain it to me, because I honestly can't figure this out. 

 
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