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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (7 Viewers)
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
That's odd. You call, Joe, when others make a "generalization," in your opinion, but when you do it, a few times recently, btw, you dismiss your own word usage.
formerfourdigit
Footballguy
The clutching of pearls when someone dares to suggest that tribalism is a foundation of the right-wing platform in 2019 is really lame. All the old euphemisms have been killed and it's in the open now. In a giant thread about a freshman legislator whom is being used as the focus of attack against progressivism, it's absolutely a fair point. Go look in reddit or other places where the right is less moderated and it's plain as day.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I like to believe that this is untrue. That said, labels evolve and old school conservatives may be carrier pigeons, things extinct and consigned to the past, or very nearly so. The usurpers of that name disgust and offend me, but such is life. He may well be the defacto leader of this new conservatism which has no roots in the old conservatism, or at least very few that meant anything to me.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
NYC had 35,740 out of 49,786 detainees that couldn't post bail before arraignment in 2016.
Why do you think AOC wants to end cash bail and turn rikers island into a solar farm?
ETA linky...
New York City is still imprisoning tens of thousands of people each year because they can't afford bail, according to data released today by the city's Independent Budget Office.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
A little reminder of just how far we've already fallen:
And while I'm on the subject, even though it's not AOC related: anyone remember when the Globe made this parody front page and got killed for it?
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
"mass detention" generally refers to the concept of rounding up large masses of people around the same time, often for the same reason.
(This is why the phrase "mass killer" is generally considered to have a different meaning than "serial killer".)
I understand that you and the dictionary may choose to adhere to a different definition of the word "mass", but unfortunately such distinction would not be appropriate for this thread. It has already been decreed that the definitions of words shall be based solely on colloquial understanding, rather than the dictionary.
Nobody uses the term "mass" and "detention" together to refer to a city jail unless they're a) being disingenuous, or b) born yesterday.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
How many people do you think are in a NYC jail that are pre-trial on an average day?
More or less than the most recent mass killing in the US? More or less than the biggest mass killing in the US?
More or less than the average camp holding migrants in the us?
Just trying to gauge your interpretation of "mass"
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
It's the same kind of weird mental place where people will reflexively defend AOC for saying dumb things just like people will reflexively defend Trump for saying stupid things. We'd all be better off if we all just called out everyone equally for saying dumb things instead of enabling and defending their blatant stupidity.
It's sad, but if the 2016 election didn't prove Trump right, everything since has. It really is all about winning and losing and nothing more for an increasingly large number of people.
It's sad, but if the 2016 election didn't prove Trump right, everything since has. It really is all about winning and losing and nothing more for an increasingly large number of people.
formerfourdigit
Footballguy
Its the same kind of weird mental place where when a first term Democratic representative equates something to the Holocaust we spar about it for a hundred pages but when the NRA and Republican congressfolk like Steve King uses more pointed analogies very consistently we just roll our eyes and shrug because thats just "what they do". Liberals are in general a lot more optimistic and IMO way too willing to acquiesce to this both sides BS which is almost never in good faith. It sucks and is distracting and messy arguing with ten different people on the internet but if the result of not doing so is to normalize children being treated like cattle then we gotta dig in and get to #winning I guess.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I'm cutting you off there. Please identify a few people on this forum who defend every stupid comment Steve King makes the way that people are defending this stupid comment by AOC.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Or, if you're trying to say that AOC is the Democratic version of Steve King . . .
formerfourdigit
Footballguy
The right wing does not play defense and there are a lot of (good) posters here that are more comfortable counter-punching possibly due to the board dynamics right now.
It's frustrating to me to see moderates disengaging or "both sides shrugging" when there is IMO a large order of magnitude in difference between the teams in say how hyperbole is being weaponized.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
As the day has gone on I’ve come to the conclusion that calling the detention centers concentration camps was a good move. I watched some CNN tonight and she caused the border situation to be discussed again when I assume it would not have been otherwise. I assume other news programs did likewise. It also got some (like me) to research the history of concentration camps. Without a doubt, everyone should agree that the latter is a good thing.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
George Takei on Twitter:
timschochet
Footballguy
No. He was not in a concentration camp.
George Takai is a great man. As a child he was in Manzanar and Tule Lake. Before that he was kept in a stable at Santa Anita racetrack. What we did to the Nisei was absolutely terrible. It was a crime against humanity and the United States should forever be ashamed, and in particular my state of California, along with Washington and Oregon. And it was mostly a group of liberal Democrats who planned this and carried it out, in particular Earl Warren, John J McCloy, and FDR.
But- these were not concentration camps. I know the Wiki page describes them as such but they don’t fit the definition. They were internment camps. Families were locked in. But they did not starve. They were not tortured or beaten or forced to serve slave labor. They were not subject to typhus or other diseases.
As a comparison: in Hong Kong at the same time as Manzanar, the Japanese locked away the entire British population in Stanley Prison, also called, in this case euphemistically, an “internment camp”. But they neglected to feed them anything but starvation rations. The result was that through hunger and disease over 70% of the inmates died by 1945 and liberation. In Manzanar only a tiny percentage died. Stanley and Changi and the other Japanese camps were truly concentration camps. Manzanar was not.
Even our reservations weren’t really concentration camps. In our entire history we have had, as I noted before, only one place that truly could be termed a concentration camp: Andersonville in Georgia. And even that was largely due to the actions of the commander, Henry Wirz, who hoarded the food and supplies for himself and thus allowed the Yankee soldiers to starve or cannibalize each other.
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
The problem with this of course is both sides try to call out the other when they say smart things too. I could say “I want to roll back military spending and fund education and infrastructure” and the headline would be “snorkelson doesn’t support the troops.”
Maybe a better example would be Biden saying he’ll cure cancer- that isn’t a bad goal, although it seems like if it happens in the next 6 years it’s more coincidence than anything any president has done. Republicans jump all over him and say “oh, well why are you waiting? Why didn’t you do it already?” The whole thing is dumb- Biden may be able to push some funding but there isn’t much he can do to cure cancer, and republicans have stymied stem cell research here in the US based on their religious voting base, so who are they to attack Biden anyway?
Its all about attacking. Less attention is paid to our politicians when they are saying something worthwhile than when they slip up.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I also would like to point out that whatever you think of AOCs holocaust comment she’s out there explaining why she chose those words and is owning it, not simply denying that she said it on tape a few minutes ago.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
See, this is unfortunately kind of what I was talking about. She's not "owning" it at all. She's attempting to explain it away. "Never Again" is a phrase that has direct ties to Nazi concentration camps. It does not have ties to any other "camps". Why the need to defend her? She clear said something stupid. Rather than her learning a lesson in inappropriate use of hyperbole, she is learning that she can deny her obvious intent and lots of folks will defend her.
Trump is the worst at all of this, but plenty of others seem to be doing their best to make up ground.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I definitely agree with you here. It's much more about slinging dirt than it is about constructive ideas. The problem is that it's because it's proven to work. Until we change our mindset as a society, it will only get worse.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Then you’re widening your definition, probably enough to make it meaningless.
And unfortunately this is an old trick that historical revisionists do, both on the left and right. They’ll compare something to the Nazis. Then when you press them they explain that it’s not exactly as bad as the Nazis but there are enough similarities that their initial statement is justified. And that allows them to retain credibility with those who know history, while those who don’t are left with the impression that maybe this really is as bad. And phrases like “concentration camps”, “Holocaust”, “Hitler”, “Stalin”, “slavery”, etc become like rubber bands: elastic and meaning whatever it becomes expedient to compare them to.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
The word had meaning for a long time before the Gulags and Extermination camps. That's the definition I'm using. All of them are bad, but only some of them are fatal.
I get that it's like "Kleenex" now -- where a specific example has become shorthand for all of them.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well first off the term was created in the Boer War. And the Afrikaner women and children were deliberately starved to death in order to get the Boer guerillas to finally surrender, so that was pretty awful. The gulags appeared about 20 years later so it’s not really that long a time, especially since I don’t think there are any real examples of concentration camps between the two.
More importantly, as many people have pointed out, when AOC used the phrase “never again” she was very clearly attempting to compare these detention centers to the worst possible definition of concentration camp, whatever she claims now.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
What you're seeing is a "motte and bailey" gambit. AOC and her defenders want to make the exciting argument that immigrant detention camps are like Nazi Germany, so they use that language and imagery. But that position is obviously indefensible. When they're called on it, they retreat to a boring and pedantic position about how "Actually, concentration camps originated in the Boer War of 1901 . . . " As soon as this dust-up blows over, they'll return to using the term "concentration camp" its normal full-on-Nazi sense without ever acknowledging that they changed their position and then changed it right back.
When you see people argue this way, they're arguing in bad faith.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_Again
Certainly highly associated with the Jewish Defense League and the Holocaust, but unique to that horror, maybe not. I am not certain those two words linked together are the sole province of Jewish survivors and heirs to preventing a return of such and for the moment fading in memory.. As for me, that is certainly what is invoked, but I am old. the new generation has other connections, connotations, maybe.
Certainly highly associated with the Jewish Defense League and the Holocaust, but unique to that horror, maybe not. I am not certain those two words linked together are the sole province of Jewish survivors and heirs to preventing a return of such and for the moment fading in memory.. As for me, that is certainly what is invoked, but I am old. the new generation has other connections, connotations, maybe.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Thanks. That’s exactly what I was trying to say but I’ve never heard that term before.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yup. As stupid as it is to be arguing semantics, there's still been a lot more attention of the cruel, horrific things that our government and in particular this administration is doing on the border. This twitter thread is useful in highlighting the atrocities and addressing counterarguments, IMO. Absolutely awful stuff.
It also points out something a lot of conservatives/Trumpers say in defense: "Why didn't you care when Obama did it?" Setting aside the fact that things are orders of magnitude worse under Trump, the bottom line is that progressives did care about Obama's immigration policy. I remember hearing about it regularly. It's widely considered one of his two biggest failures by the progressive community, the other being the continued and expanded use of military drones.
As for the dumb semantics argument about what to call the cruel, inhuman detention centers where the US government is imprisoning desperate minorities who are fleeing horrifying conditions partially of our making, I'm with this guy who summarizes the ongoing debate nicely:
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Jayrod
Footballguy
I have a cousin who is my most liberal acquaintance. She lives in NYC and has a genius level IQ. She is actually one of my favorite family members.
When Trump got elected, she was hysterical. Her primary reason? Because her husband was Jewish and her children's great-grandparents experienced the Holocaust. She honestly believed that there was some direct connection between Donald Trump being President and Nazi Germany.
AOC lives in this world. She knew darn well what she was doing.
When Trump got elected, she was hysterical. Her primary reason? Because her husband was Jewish and her children's great-grandparents experienced the Holocaust. She honestly believed that there was some direct connection between Donald Trump being President and Nazi Germany.
AOC lives in this world. She knew darn well what she was doing.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Given the certainty of you and others I am going to have to reevaluate my impression, not previously strongly held, that perhaps she had not thoughtfully crafted her statement.
timschochet
Footballguy
So what you’re arguing here is that the only way to bring attention to an issue is to use hyperbole or even falsehood to highlight it. Isn’t that what Trump’s done all along?
I reject this. I think it makes things worse in the long run. And even in the short run, if most of the response is outrage over the comparison, I don’t see how it really helps.
It actually is starting to remind me of Kaepernick kneeling. He did that to bring attention to the police mistreatment of minorities, which is a worthy issue to bring attention to. But did it serve its purpose? IMO what it mostly did was engage the nation in a useless debate about Kaepernick’s patriotism. Who gained from that?
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Jayrod
Footballguy
In some circles, there is a very strong link between American racism and Nazis.
A google search of the two terms "American racism and Nazi Germany" shows the close ties.
Those running against Trump did everything they could to paint him as a racist (I'm not sure that he is or isn't, they just sold it very hard). Once considered a racist, he is then subject to Nazi comparisons as a result. From what I've observed these past four years, racism is a binary proposition to many and once you are labeled as such, nuance be damned, you are akin to Nazis.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
All due respect to your friend's husband and his grandparents, but here's a Jew who lost family in the Holocaust and who is also a historian with expertise on the Holocaust and Fascism, and he approves of what she said:
And you know who else approves of it? The guy everyone cites to complain about people making inappropriate Hitler/Holocaust comparisons!
He also retweeted this thread:
And he goes on to explain why.
But ultimately the best reason to call them that is that it's finally focusing a least a fraction of the justified level of attention of the horrors that the US government is perpetrating, by any name.
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Summer Wheat
Footballguy
I never vote GOP but am aware. I loved AOC at the start but also am aware she makes very Palinish type blunders and comments. I just consider her a vote for us now.
timschochet
Footballguy
From a purely political standpoint:
The way that Trump wins re-election is by getting the public to believe that Democrats are leftist extremists.
The way that Democrats defeat Trump is by getting the public to believe that they are the reasonable ones compared to Trump.
It seems like every time AOC opens her mouth she is helping Trump in his goal, and hurting the Democrats in theirs.
The way that Trump wins re-election is by getting the public to believe that Democrats are leftist extremists.
The way that Democrats defeat Trump is by getting the public to believe that they are the reasonable ones compared to Trump.
It seems like every time AOC opens her mouth she is helping Trump in his goal, and hurting the Democrats in theirs.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, because I don't believe it's hyperbole or falsehood. It's inflammatory and controversial, but that's not remotely the same thing.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
The camps in Cuba, Africa and the Philippines were what you're describing, but the WWI camps around the world (England, Canada, Germany, etc) were not. They were harsh and awful, but generally not fatal.
And Trotsky imported his time in the Canadian concentration camps back to Russia -- where they turned into something much grimmer again.
AOC was quoting an article, by someone who wrote a book on this before Trump was elected. So if you want to interpret AOC, go for it. But the article and book themselves are not at all what you're describing.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Yes, like I said above, there is a strong link between American racism and Nazi Germany in the minds of people in these circles. They see it as binary instead of the grey scale it is.
I have older relatives who I would label as racist because they seem to believe that all black people are loud, obnoxious and lazy. They don't want to lock them up and kill them in gas chambers. The difference between racists and Nazis is too vast of a chasm to just nonchalantly link the two.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I'm not linking racists and Nazis, and neither is anyone else as far as I can tell. People are linking camps where largely innocent, desperate minorities are imprisoned by powerful politicians and a militarized law enforcement agency and tortured and in some cases left to die with camps where largely innocent, desperate minorities were imprisoned by powerful politicians and a militarized law enforcement agency and tortured and murdered.
If people want to spend time discussing the semantics of using the same word to describe both of these things, that's their business, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I'm just glad we're finally giving the appropriate amount of attention to the fact that the US government is operating camps where largely innocent, desperate minorities are imprisoned by powerful politicians and a militarized law enforcement agency and tortured and in some cases left to die. I prefer to spend my time fighting that and the people who are enabling it with their support for this administration rather than worrying about the semantics.
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If you replace AOC with HRC in your example, maybe you would have a better appreciation for the impact right-wing media is having here. Attacking her is one of their biggest purposes.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Maybe I’m missing it, but where is the reporting on conditions inside the camps? Some perspective is needed. I feel like immigration activists have been making arguments about human rights conditions for years, but obviously we are at an extreme right now. What happens is officials and agents are given more and more latitude, transparency is blocked out, Congress is prevented from its legally mandated oversight, there is more and more pressure and stress on the actual agents as more and more immigrants are detained, the WH rhetoric becomes more extreme, all rolled into the incompetence and lying which is the de facto practice of this administration, and then one day there will be an expose about how bad things have gotten. There will be some tragic report about mistreatment replete with photos.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Actually you don’t have to go to Nazi Germany for this. Take a look at Orleans Parish prisons at some point. Grotesque overcrowding and mistreatment with the same recipe. The Feds ultimately took it over.
Jayrod
Footballguy
This constant BS of "I don't know what you are talking about" is old and tired and quite frankly, immature. It is what my 12 year old son does when I catch him doing something he isn't supposed to do.
Joe called you out on it yesterday and here you are doing it again. I'm done with you as any real discussion is impossible.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
The intent, when began, may not have identified as a concentration camp, however, recent times has morphed these "camps" into more of a traditional internment/concentration camp.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Additionally, what path forward do we have where these camps are closed now? Obama tried to close Guantanamo, but found it very difficult/impossible politically to do so. The case load is growing faster than cases are being resolved. How does this end?
If history is a guide what happens from here is that they don't end. They run out of space and the camps become overcrowded. Then politicians start complaining about the expense of housing all of "them". And eventually you end up with malnutrition, disease and widespread mental illness. Possibly abusive guards -- a lot of people aren't equipped to handle that environment without turning on the prisoners.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I'm sorry you feel this way, I always enjoy interacting with you and considered you the anonymous message board equivalent of a friend.
But I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. I didn't say "I don't know what you're talking about" in the previous posts (although obviously I'm saying it now, because I genuinely don't). I responded to your thoughts on the semantics controversy with my own. For the life of me I don't know why that set you off.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
On a positive note now we wont have to listen to people get bent out of shape when somebody calls her a socialist.
Well, Tim can still be upset.
Well, Tim can still be upset.
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