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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
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Shula-holic
Footballguy
Here's an article discussing what I was referring to
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/01/is-elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax-constitutional/
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm totally with you - I absolutely understand the argument that it's unconstitutional. I just don't get what the other side is. I don't know how you argue that it's constitutional.Shula-holic said:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm not sure that's an objective view of that particular exchange. Which was with Glenn Kessler, not with Jason Furman, thought it referenced a Furman paper. And which ended with this:IvanKaramazov said:
@AOC: I am criticizing the rationale of saying we should trust a questioned source paper because of a standing friendship and X admin, bc neither preclude the possibility of revolving door politics - if the tweet read as though I was going after @jasonfurman specifically, I apologize.
@jasonfurman: Thanks for this, I appreciate you saying it was nothing personal. I hope to work with you on one of our many shared interests sometime.
To my knowledge, those were the only tweets exchanged between the two.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
She accused him of being a bought-and-paid for lobbyist on behalf of Wal-Mart and used him as an example of the proverbial "revolving door." That was sort of slanderous.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think you may be over-reading her tweets.
And then the two tweets I posted.
Your interpretation of what she said may be a little much. And she apologized for the implication.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
She is upset at the sourcing used to fact check her and then she turns around and uses jacobinmag as a source???
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Thanks a lot for putting me on her twitter page henry and Ivan.
Although the more I think about some of the arguments I am reading on there sound just like the ones I see here.
People questioning heavily right leaning sources and quoting heavily left leaning sources, check!
People making incorrect statements and trying to twist what the actual point of the statement was, Check!
People being hypocrites, check!
Now I just need to see some trolling accusations and some "i heard it on talk radio" quotes on there and I can call it a day.
Although the more I think about some of the arguments I am reading on there sound just like the ones I see here.
People questioning heavily right leaning sources and quoting heavily left leaning sources, check!
People making incorrect statements and trying to twist what the actual point of the statement was, Check!
People being hypocrites, check!
Now I just need to see some trolling accusations and some "i heard it on talk radio" quotes on there and I can call it a day.
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jonessed
Footballguy
Just speak in sentence fragments and leave out vowels.
If you are speaking in-person make sure to text simultaneously so the person you are speaking with knows you are really busy and important.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I haven’t given this any thought but couldn’t an argument just be that wealth is an accumulation of past income? The constitution doesn’t require that the collection of income taxes has to be within some specified period of time.
Tom Hagen
Footballguy
I would think the counter argument to that is that we already have a capital gains tax to handle that. A wealth tax would tax the same accumulation of income every year and then again when (if) assets are sold at a gain. Would the constitution allow the same income by the same taxpayer to be taxed multiple times?
Wealth isn’t past income. It’s past income minus consumption and other expenses. There are plenty of people who’ve earned tens of millions of dollars who are now broke while there are plenty of others with far lower incomes who’ve scrimped and saved whatever they could.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Wealth is not always income. It is held in real estate and financial instruments that can be accumulated generations ago. Hence the major push of elites to kill the inheritance tax. Giving handouts to poor people will make them lazy but for rich kids it's okay.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I don't think either of these last two posts refute fatguy's assertion.
That is one of the problems with income. Bill Gates could earn zero and still be super rich. While a person earning their first million might just be beginning to save for their retirement and is far from rich. The other issue is, federal income is already the most progressive of all the taxes we have, I would even say it is super progressive. Now consumption taxes, SS taxes, sin taxes and lotteries are highly regressive taxes, but those taxes are not addressed. We just want to keep making federal income tax more and more progressive.
Economies work best when total tax taken be government is kept under 40% of GNP. A marginal tax rate above 50% is also usually counter-productive. We have some room to increase our federal income tax rate, but making it some punitive tax rate is not the answer. We need a more balance look at how we tax people and how to cut government spending and future obligations.
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Congress is authorized to tax people based on their income. My constitutional argument is that income doesn't mean wealth. They're different.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
It says collect taxes on income, it doesn’t say “based on their income.” I don’t think it’s impossible to read that line differently.
Just as a note, I haven’t really read what Warren’s proposal is so I’m not necessarily advocating for it. I’m just focused on the constitutionality of it.
Also, there’s always the theoretical possibility of a constitutional amendment, although I don’t know whether that’s what Warren is contemplating.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-xvi/congress-has-broad-power-to-tax-by-joseph-fishkin-and-william-forbath/interp/38
The arguments in this first essay seem non-frivolous at least.
The arguments in this first essay seem non-frivolous at least.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Thanks for posting that -- had no idea about the history of the 16th Amendment.
I don't really have an opinion on the direct vs. indirect stuff. But that article seems to argue that because all taxes are indirect, the income vs. non-income distinction doesn't matter -- not that the distinction matters but that wealth counts as income.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
And I think we can set pretty close to in stone the fact that Pollack means that’s not going to fly. And the Court will say “just like that time, you need to pass a Constitutional Amendment.”
squistion
Footballguy
They are so triggered by her.
The Daily Beast @thedailybeast 2h2 hours ago
Howard Schultz blames Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for his decision to run as Independent and it has to do with her plan to tax the rich
https://www.thedailybeast.com/howard-schultz-blames-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-for-his-decision-to-run-as-independent?via=twitter_page
The Daily Beast @thedailybeast 2h2 hours ago
Howard Schultz blames Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for his decision to run as Independent and it has to do with her plan to tax the rich
https://www.thedailybeast.com/howard-schultz-blames-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-for-his-decision-to-run-as-independent?via=twitter_page
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
They? Howie is a Dem..I hope he does not run because it will split Dem votes.
Plus the Cortez 70% tax rate is like Trumps wall..neither will ever happen.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
He’s been a lifelong Dem, but his self-described Centrist positions make him a better candidate as a Republican. And he has no shot of winning as an Independent, so what’s the point?
The “moderate” voters in the U.S. has been declining for years, and even within that swing cohort, social conservatives who hold fiscally liberal views are much more common than social progressives who are fiscally conservative.
Or to put a finer point on it, aging white people who want to protect and expand entitlement programs but hold reactionary views on race and immigration significantly outnumber Schultz’s tribe of business-class flyers who believe in LGBT rights.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
70% tax rate will never happen. Too many rich Dems and GOPs in Senate for that to ever pass.
joffer
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
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joffer
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
No offense taken...there should be and will be a higher tax rate but for anyone to think that a 70% rate will ever pass is absurd. That is Palin type of talk. I would not care because I will never be in that bracket anyway..but it would never get by the Senate.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Shoot for 70 percent, settle for 50
Henry Ford
Footballguy
What level would the highest marginal tax rate be if we passed a law that the caliber of ammunition legal for sale could be no higher in inches than 75% of the decimal expression of the highest marginal tax rate?
I think that might do it.
I think that might do it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
9mm = 47% tax rate. .45 would really help this country though.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Did it ever really happen anyway? It isnt like the tax code was identical and the only change was rates. Effextive tax rates didnt end up that much different than today.
ETA: wrong word used
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T J
Footballguy
This Cortez is every bit as nuts as Palin - just on opposite sides of the same crazy coin.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
Not in the way most seem to believe. It only hit a handful of people and their overall effective rates weren’t much different than they would be under today’s rules.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Four freshman progressive House members—Reps. Pressley, Ocasio-Cortez, Tlaib, and Omar—are urging their colleagues to reduce Homeland Security spending, not increase it, as part of ongoing shutdown negations, according to The Daily Beast.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/progressive-democrats-to-shutdown-negotiators-not-another-dollar-in-dhs-funding
https://www.thedailybeast.com/progressive-democrats-to-shutdown-negotiators-not-another-dollar-in-dhs-funding
Shula-holic
Footballguy
There's more of us around than you'd think today. We are just drowned out either by the far right in red states and the far left in blue states. I know many more socially progressive people who are fiscally conservative than vice versa.BobbyLayne said:
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
@Maurile Tremblay and @Henry Ford:
Are estate taxes constitutional? If so, what distinguishes them from wealth taxes?
ETA: Nevermind, I did some googling and found the 1920s Supreme Court case that upheld the constitutionality of estate taxes. I can figure out the arguments from there.
ETA2: Wait, now that I’m thinking about it some more the logic that makes estate taxes constitutional would also make income taxes constitutional even in the absence of the 16th Amendment I think. Somebody help me out here.
Are estate taxes constitutional? If so, what distinguishes them from wealth taxes?
ETA: Nevermind, I did some googling and found the 1920s Supreme Court case that upheld the constitutionality of estate taxes. I can figure out the arguments from there.
ETA2: Wait, now that I’m thinking about it some more the logic that makes estate taxes constitutional would also make income taxes constitutional even in the absence of the 16th Amendment I think. Somebody help me out here.
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urbanhack
Fight The Power!
the moops
Footballguy
That Lee Zeldin dude sure seems like a giant ****.
Lee ZeldinVerified account @RepLeeZeldin
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Was just selected as Ranking Member of the @HouseForeign Subcommittee on Oversight & Investigations! Just learned Freshman Rep. Ilhan Omar was also put on this committee w oversight of US foreign policy. Crazy to watch what House Dems are empowering/elevating.
Lee ZeldinVerified account @RepLeeZeldin
FollowFollow @RepLeeZeldin
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Was just selected as Ranking Member of the @HouseForeign Subcommittee on Oversight & Investigations! Just learned Freshman Rep. Ilhan Omar was also put on this committee w oversight of US foreign policy. Crazy to watch what House Dems are empowering/elevating.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Hearing on pharmaceutical legislation - @AOC made a point of discussing with a witness the fact that the public through the NIH invests millions in pharmaceutical research that is then handed off to for profit companies that provide no direct benefit to the public.
My mostly uninformed impression of the distinction between direct and indirect taxation is that it’s based less on clear principles than on historical accident stemming from a compromise between slave and free states.
In any case, it seems clear based on historical precedent that an income tax is considered direct, hence the need for the 16th Amendment. It seems like a wealth tax would be even more direct (since there’s no transaction involved), while an estate tax could arguably go either way (since there is a transaction, but it’s based on accumulated wealth).
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