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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread


JohnnyU

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26 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

AOC's brand of extreme Socialism is just as wrong as unchecked Capitalism.

If I were in a disagreeable mood, I would disagree, in a way, on both ends of that statement. AOC is not really pushing socialism, IMO, much less extreme socialism. And the problems that many seem to be attributing to capitalism are not due to capitalism, IMO, much less unchecked capitalism.

But actually my current mood is agreeable, so never mind that. :)

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12 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

:shrug: I know very little about economics - won't pretend like I do.  But what I do know is the wealth is moving towards the top 1% and not being spread out - it's not sustainable IMO.  When driver-less cars put millions out of work we need to be prepared.  That's just one example of many - I don't think we are at the crisis point that we are with climate but we are inching along in that direction.  And if we continue to let the top 1% set all the rules for everybody then we are just going to continue the trend.  It's a good thing that people like Bernie and AOC highlight this.  Even if their solutions are dumb or not workable it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.  And yes, it's a complex problem but one that needs to be discussed.

I agree with everything you’re saying. 100% of it. But relying on dumb solutions to complex problems could be worse than the problems themselves, particularly when they’re also unpopular. 

I wrote that AOC depresses me. She depresses me because I like her, and I agree with her and you about some of the problems we are facing. In that, she is far more realistic than the Republicans who are cynically trying to manipulate her ideas to win elections. But they WILL win those elections unless she comes to realize that capitalism really does have an important role to play. I don’t think she gets that right now. 

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12 hours ago, timschochet said:

Who says it’s a hoax? He was on Good Morning America today. Sounded legit to me. 

It’s being reported everywhere that it’s a hoax.  And of course he sounded legit on Good Morning America, the media needs this to be true.  Taking an L on this only a few weeks after the Covington boys is very bad for them.

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

The manure issues are a big problem also. The amount of crap a single cow creates each day is insane. 

ETA: 65 pounds of poop each day. 

Ideally, the manure would be an environmental benefit rather than a liability. It’s a huge liability in the context of factory farming. It’s beneficial in the context of pasture-based farming. (The farts are a liability either way,)

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2 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

https://twitter.com/davidsirota/status/1096442292557074432

Gov. Andrew Cuomo seems to take direct aim at @AOC and other progressives by having his spokesperson slam opposition to Amazon and call that opposition a “pander to the local socialists”

Seems like the Dem party is becoming divided into Democrats and socialist Democrats.

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I'm going to pause here and say again that's it's amazing that the AOC thread is 72 pages and counting.  Despite her naivety and inexperience and yes, lack of knowledge, she has us discussing important issues and that's never a bad thing.  I'd rather spend all day in this thread than argue about whether we are a liberal echo chamber or argue ad nauseum about the idiotic border wall.

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16 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I find it interesting too.  But the bolded is a weird thing to say, given that you've been acting like there is a right answer for most of this discussion and also being very dismissive of any suggestion otherwise.

Also, I think she'll be fine. I've found her to be surprisingly sharp.  Considering the unreal amount of attention she's getting and her age and inexperience, I figured she'd have stepped in a lot more dog#### by now.

I started off with one position but ultimately I get what you and others have brought up. It’s an interesting discussion in that I believe it’s a benefit for New York State in general but might ultimately not benefit local districts.  Just trying to have a discussion and understand another perspective.  

She has already cross Pelosi, cuomo, del blasio and I’m sure others so thats a lot shoe cleaning so far.  

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6 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I just posted a small snipet of the "Is Grassfed Beef The Answer?" section of the article.  I encourage you to read that whole section. 

I will definitely read the rest (and thanks again for posting it).  Just a final thought - my point in originally saying I'm not in favor is because of the individual health implications we are facing with our current obesity epidemic.  Like I said, if knowledgeable people come out and say we absolutely have to reduce the number of cows whether they are on grass-fed farms or factory farms then I'm onboard.  I'm just not convinced (yet) that is the only (or best) solution - especially when taking all issues in to account.  And note - that's definitely not an endorsement of factory farms (they are horrible) and it's also not an endorsement of some of the practices of grass-fed farms.

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10 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

If I were in a disagreeable mood, I would disagree, in a way, on both ends of that statement. AOC is not really pushing socialism, IMO, much less extreme socialism. And the problems that many seem to be attributing to capitalism are not due to capitalism, IMO, much less unchecked capitalism.

But actually my current mood is agreeable, so never mind that. :)

Lol, thanks I appreciate it. Because I don't have the current stomach to delve too far into this right now either. I do think too much of what AOC has put out there is extreme. I also think her heart is in the right place much of the time. I just think she needs to tone it down and dial of a few things back. And she can avoid brush back from her own party if she just thinks a little longer before speaking.

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

Think you responded to the wrong quote, Da Guru. 

Anyhow, I heard an interview with AOC on this issue this morning, and like other interviews with AOC, I found her fresh, charming, intelligent...and mostly wrong. 

One of the main points she made is that rather than subsidize private businesses to hire people, it would be better for government to hire those people itself- “We should use the same money to hire teachers, fix roads, help people.” There is a basic disconnect here IMO- she doesn’t seem to understand what creates wealth. She doesn’t understand investment. Frankly, she doesn’t get capitalism. 

And again, this sort of attitude just plays into the Republican argument: the New Democrats are socialists: they don’t understand wealth. They want everything handed to them. 

 

Why do you think subsidizing businesses to hire people is a more capitalist approach?  I completely agree with her on this.  While we shouldn't hire more teachers, or fix roads, or rebuild infrastructure unless we actually need to, I'd much prefer the government investing in these areas.  

What happens when the subsidies to these employers stop?  We just essentially gave subsidies in the form of a massive tax cut under the guise that employers would use the savings to hire more employees and they mostly used the money to buyback their stocks.  

Look at Amazon.  They were looking to build a new HQ.  If nobody offered them any subsidies they will build the thing somewhere regardless because they see the need to do it.  If government is going to invest in private businesses then I want to see the people get a significant return on their investment.  The government eats the losses on losers and gets little to no return on the successful investments (like drug R&D).

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2 minutes ago, stlrams said:

I started off with one position but ultimately I get what you and others have brought up. It’s an interesting discussion in that I believe it’s a benefit for New York State in general but might ultimately not benefit local districts.  Just trying to have a discussion and understand another perspective.  

She has already cross Pelosi, cuomo, del blasio and I’m sure others so thats a lot shoe cleaning so far.  

I appreciate that.

FWIW my understanding is that Cuomo and DeBlasio are not particularly popular on the left in NY. They're seen as centrists, plus lots of city folk are mad at Cuomo because the state government actually controls the subways (no idea why) and they're a disaster. And they can't really cause much trouble for her anyway. Pelosi is a different story of course, but there really hasn't been much tension so far.

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3 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I will definitely read the rest (and thanks again for posting it).  Just a final thought - my point in originally saying I'm not in favor is because of the individual health implications we are facing with our current obesity epidemic.  Like I said, if knowledgeable people come out and say we absolutely have to reduce the number of cows whether they are on grass-fed farms or factory farms then I'm onboard.  I'm just not convinced (yet) that is the only (or best) solution - especially when taking all issues in to account.  And note - that's definitely not an endorsement of factory farms (they are horrible) and it's also not an endorsement of some of the practices of grass-fed farms.

I think the answer to all of this to for people to eat more fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes and whole grains.  And governments should use subsidies and taxation to help this process along.

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1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

I think the answer to all of this to for people to eat more fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes and whole grains.  And governments should use subsidies and taxation to help this process along.

Not happening here.  I love a good steak,

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55 minutes ago, timschochet said:

We still need to create wealth in order to share it. How do we do that? 

So assuming this entire country's job market was in a vacuum and the average salary were $75k per year.  You would be fine with the government paying every employer $48k per hire?  This is your idea of wealth creation?

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7 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I think the answer to all of this to for people to eat more fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes and whole grains.  And governments should use subsidies and taxation to help this process along.

Throw in some mushrooms, oysters, clams, mussels, and scallops and I’m largely on board with your first sentence. I’m unsure about your second sentence for reasons that are way outside the scope of this thread.

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, guys, having the government subsidize private firms and pick winners and losers is not unchecked capitalism.  This is the kind of thing that people coined the term "crony capitalism" to describe, and it's more like a half-assed industrial policy than a free market. 

Yes, there is no doubt that a free market that picked its own winners and losers would be more efficient. Totally agree. 

We don’t have that. We haven’t had that in 90 years. Large companies, like free agent sports stars, demand and expect incentives, bonuses and handouts from local governments. That’s the reality. If they don’t get them they go elsewhere. Sometimes out of state, sometimes out of country. 

For all of my many disagreements with Donald Trump, this is something he understands- better than AOC, apparently. 

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15 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I appreciate that.

FWIW my understanding is that Cuomo and DeBlasio are not particularly popular on the left in NY. They're seen as centrists, plus lots of city folk are mad at Cuomo because the state government actually controls the subways (no idea why) and they're a disaster. And they can't really cause much trouble for her anyway. Pelosi is a different story of course, but there really hasn't been much tension so far.

In reality I think most people are centrists. Harley Rouda was just asked about the Green Deal and Cortez and said the majority of dems are between the 20s in thinking.  Not as hard left as Cortez.  Then went on to say that the media only cares about controversial topics and not what the most of the congress represents. 

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23 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Why do you think subsidizing businesses to hire people is a more capitalist approach?  I completely agree with her on this.  While we shouldn't hire more teachers, or fix roads, or rebuild infrastructure unless we actually need to, I'd much prefer the government investing in these areas.  

What happens when the subsidies to these employers stop?  We just essentially gave subsidies in the form of a massive tax cut under the guise that employers would use the savings to hire more employees and they mostly used the money to buyback their stocks.  

Look at Amazon.  They were looking to build a new HQ.  If nobody offered them any subsidies they will build the thing somewhere regardless because they see the need to do it.  If government is going to invest in private businesses then I want to see the people get a significant return on their investment.  The government eats the losses on losers and gets little to no return on the successful investments (like drug R&D).

These are excellent questions. First off, I want to spend just as much as you do on teachers, on infrastructure, on everything you’re talking about. 

Deals like the Amazon one create the wealth necessary to do so. It’s not a limited pie. Amazon grows the pie. That’s the point. It doesn’t need to be either-or, we can do both. Investing in R&D is great, we should do that too. 

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5 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Seems like the Dem party is becoming divided into Democrats and socialist Democrats.

It's cool how it works.  Whenever AOC dunks on Trump/GOP, Dems act like her friend.  Whenever AOC wants to bring progressive legislation forward, Pelosi/Cuomo #### all over her.  They will use her to their own ends whenever it's convenient, and discard her when it isn't. 

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15 minutes ago, Dickies said:

So assuming this entire country's job market was in a vacuum and the average salary were $75k per year.  You would be fine with the government paying every employer $48k per hire?  This is your idea of wealth creation?

No and I don’t even understand your question. We don’t live in a vacuum- that might be the #1 principle behind all of my thinking. We live in the real world. 

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1 minute ago, ren hoek said:

It's cool how it works.  Whenever AOC dunks on Trump/GOP, Dems act like her friend.  Whenever AOC wants to bring progressive legislation forward, Pelosi/Cuomo #### all over her.  They will use her to their own ends whenever it's convenient, and discard her when it isn't. 

Or- when we agree with her we say so, and when we disagree with her we say so. In other words we treat her just like anybody else. 

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2 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

It's cool how it works.  Whenever AOC dunks on Trump/GOP, Dems act like her friend.  Whenever AOC wants to bring progressive legislation forward, Pelosi/Cuomo #### all over her.  They will use her to their own ends whenever it's convenient, and discard her when it isn't. 

That is how politics work...Cortez is being treated like any congressperson would be.

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No and I don’t even understand your question. We don’t live in a vacuum- that might be the #1 principle behind all of my thinking. We live in the real world. 

You said AOC doesn't understand capitalism or wealth creation in response to AOC saying government should stay away from subsidizing private businesses (which I assume is in regards to the Amazon deal).  Do you see the government paying $48k per $75k paying job as a sustainable way of creating wealth?

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15 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In reality I think most people are centrists. Harley Rouda was just asked about the Green Deal and Cortez and said the majority of dems are between the 20s in thinking.  Not as hard left as Cortez.  Then went on to say that the media only cares about controversial topics and not what the most of the congress represents. 

Strongly disagree with the "most people are centrists" thing. Not the "most dems are not as far left as Cortez" thing. That part is definitely true. But there's lots of evidence that true centrism in America is pretty rare, and that a graph of our political opinions would look more like a valley than a bell curve . People like to call themselves that, or "independent," but when you get into the issues most of the people who do so still fall pretty squarely on one side or the other. And to the extent they don't it's often because they take extreme left or right positions depending on the issue, not because they fall into a "middle" to which politicians can appeal. one of many links on this

Also I appreciate the opportunity to post one of my favorite political tweets:
 

Quote

 

@InternetHippo

Just got back from the centrist rally. Amazing turnout. Thousands of people holding hands and chanting “Better things aren’t possible”

 

 

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Actually a very good answer to the question.

It shows a stunning lack of understanding of taxation and investment.  But at least she understands the word "organize".  

 

1 hour ago, msommer said:

Per wiki cow burps (not farts) are the problem and  consequently accounts for 21% of methane relessed into the stmosphere.

Not sure how the quantities stack up but methane is fat worse than co2 as a greenhouse gas, per the same wiki article 80 times worse for the same quantity. Some interesting graphs in that entry on other envirlnmental impacts as well (water use etc)

I wonder how much methane we saved the environment by killing off a few million bison to make way for these cattle.  And piles and piles of poop, of course.  How do we apply these fart and poop credits to the system?

 

20 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

It's cool how it works.  Whenever AOC dunks on Trump/GOP, Dems act like her friend.  Whenever AOC wants to bring progressive legislation forward, Pelosi/Cuomo #### all over her.  They will use her to their own ends whenever it's convenient, and discard her when it isn't. 

You mean like a debate of ideas in the Halls of Congress?  Heaven forfend!

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42 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I think the answer to all of this to for people to eat more fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes and whole grains.  And governments should use subsidies and taxation to help this process along.

Except I disagree with this - if you changed that to some fruits, most vegetables, some nuts, some seeds and some legumes then I'm with you.   ;)

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, the centrist Democrats are becoming a very small minority. That is my growing impression- we’ll see how the primaries go. 

I wouldn't say "very small," but I'm starting to agree with something you wrote in some other thread (or maybe this one -- who knows?).  What's happening with the Democrats right now kind of resembles the early days of the Tea Party in the GOP, while W was still in office.  You're starting to see people elected who are happy to make life difficult for their own leaders, and some grassroots people who want to start primarying folks in their own party who aren't sufficiently pure.  In the Republican party, this opened the door for the Trump Crazy Train.  Obviously the Democratic party isn't at that point yet, but it does seem like some of their most prominent voices are pretty Trumpian in certain respects.

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27 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

It's cool how it works.  Whenever AOC dunks on Trump/GOP, Dems act like her friend.  Whenever AOC wants to bring progressive legislation forward, Pelosi/Cuomo #### all over her.  They will use her to their own ends whenever it's convenient, and discard her when it isn't. 

I have hope it'll change when more good people get elected 

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3 minutes ago, Dickies said:

You said AOC doesn't understand capitalism or wealth creation in response to AOC saying government should stay away from subsidizing private businesses (which I assume is in regards to the Amazon deal).  Do you see the government paying $48k per $75k paying job as a sustainable way of creating wealth?

Not in a vacuum no. But if you’re talking about inviting an industry in that revamps an entire area, helping all sorts of small business and in general creating economic vitality, then yes. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Not in a vacuum no. But if you’re talking about inviting an industry in that revamps an entire area, helping all sorts of small business and in general creating economic vitality, then yes. 

Do you think protections for the taxpayer should be in place in the event that the proposed economic growth doesn't materialize?

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I wouldn't say "very small," but I'm starting to agree with something you wrote in some other thread (or maybe this one -- who knows?).  What's happening with the Democrats right now kind of resembles the early days of the Tea Party in the GOP, while W was still in office.  You're starting to see people elected who are happy to make life difficult for their own leaders, and some grassroots people who want to start primarying folks in their own party who aren't sufficiently pure.  In the Republican party, this opened the door for the Trump Crazy Train.  Obviously the Democratic party isn't at that point yet, but it does seem like some of their most prominent voices are pretty Trumpian in certain respects.

The difference for me is that I am far more sympathetic to the concerns of the left. The main concern of the right these days, which IMO appears to be fear of the browning of America, doesn’t move me at all. But the left has legitimate concerns: climate change, automation, economic inequality. 

Im just a little wary of some of their solutions so far. 

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7 minutes ago, Sand said:

It shows a stunning lack of understanding of taxation and investment.  But at least she understands the word "organize".  

 

 

Unpack this please...where did she show any lack of understanding...rather than just throwing this out there.

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1 minute ago, Dickies said:

Do you think protections for the taxpayer should be in place in the event that the proposed economic growth doesn't materialize?

Interesting question which I haven’t considered but...no, not really. You have to gamble. Again it’s like signing a free agent. Sometimes you’re Miami and you get LeBron James and a championship. Sometimes you’re the Angels (my team) and you get Albert Pujols and 20 years of the worst contract in sports history. But you have to take a chance. 

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Unpack this please...where did she show any lack of understanding...rather than just throwing this out there.

She's spending an imaginary 3B - that 3B would be generated by taxation of Amazon employees and rebated back to them.  So when she talks about "using that money instead..." she's lost a grip on where those funds originate.

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16 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

That is not good for ousting Trump.

No it's not. He's probably so far gone that the Left can swing a little further than one side would typically get away with, but it's a risk not worth taking. Going too far Left is just about the only way this goofball could win in 2020.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

The difference for me is that I am far more sympathetic to the concerns of the left. The main concern of the right these days, which IMO appears to be fear of the browning of America, doesn’t move me at all. But the left has legitimate concerns: climate change, automation, economic inequality. 

Im just a little wary of some of their solutions so far. 

Yeah, I agree.  But to use climate change as an example, AOC's let's-upend-everything-and-rebuild-society-from-scratch approach is dead on arrival and more likely to lead to no action at all than anything productive.  It's Tea Party-like in that regard.  Contrast that with a plan that imposed some sort of carbon tax and rebate, subsidies for renewables and nuclear, R&D spending, and stuff like that.  Granted, that would face an uphill fight too given where the Republicans are these days, but that's at least a realistic approach that has some chance of possibly being enacted.    

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11 minutes ago, Sand said:

I wonder how much methane we saved the environment by killing off a few million bison to make way for these cattle.  And piles and piles of poop, of course.  How do we apply these fart and poop credits to the system?

You spent all that credit and more by addding 121 ppm CO2 to the atmosphere since then. 

HTH

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