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The Mollie Tibbetts Murder — Political Version


Juxtatarot

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Yarrabee Farms, the Iowa farm that employed the suspect charged with killing Mollie Tibbetts, defended its vetting of Cristhian Bahena Rivera late Tuesday. The farm says Rivera passed the government's background check and it had no idea he was an undocumented immigrant.

Rivera, who the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation said Tuesday afternoon is responsible for the 20-year-old University of Iowa student's death last month, was called an "employee in good standing."

"This individual has worked at our farms for four years, was vetted through the government's E-Verify system, and was an employee in good standing," Yarrabee Farms said in the statement. "On Monday, the authorities visited our farm and talked to our employees. We have cooperated fully with their investigation."

E-Verify is an online system run by the U.S. government for employers to check on the eligibility status of its workers. The system checks records from the Social Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security, which Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) falls under, to make sure an employee is legally allowed to work.

Rivera has worked at the farm for four years, the company said.

It is unclear how Rivera passed the E-Verify system. Rivera is an undocumented immigrant from Mexico, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said, and a detainer was issued for him on Tuesday.

The Department of Homeland Security said Rivera has been in the country "between 4 and 7 years."

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I don't have a good enough understanding of the E-Verify system to understand this.  How could he pass?  Stolen identity?  

Edited by Juxtatarot
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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Read the entire gun thread and get back to me. Just because you can't think of anyone, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Translation: I made a ridiculous claim I can't back up that posters in the gun thread saying that all gun owners had blood on their hands after a school shooting so I will direct you to the thread where if you were spend hours scrolling through it you wouldn't find anything.

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Just now, squistion said:

Translation: I made a ridiculous claim I can't back up that posters in the gun thread saying that all gun owners had blood on their hands after a school shooting so I will direct you to the thread where if you were spend hours scrolling through it you wouldn't find anything.

Nice try. I'll make it easier for you. Open the gun thread and search "blood hands". Take a look at the results. 

When you have finished that, please come back and report your findings. 

And an apology. 

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2 minutes ago, squistion said:

Translation: I made a ridiculous claim I can't back up that posters in the gun thread saying that all gun owners had blood on their hands after a school shooting so I will direct you to the thread where if you were spend hours scrolling through it you wouldn't find anything.

o'irony

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5 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Nice try. I'll make it easier for you. Open the gun thread and search "blood hands". Take a look at the results. 

When you have finished that, please come back and report your findings. 

And an apology. 

Provide an example via quote of someone saying that, or stop making ridiculous claims. I am not going spend two seconds looking for something that probably doesn't exist.

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37 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I agreed earlier with RW drawing this parallel of the gun debate, but I think you’re taking it a bit too far here. Who wrote that all gun owners have blood on their hands? Certainly nobody I can think of. 

There are a couple of crazies that have said that before but it's not the general sentiment.  Generally in those threads it's about scoring political points though similar to using this girl's murder to go after illegal immigration.   

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

I’ve given this argument serious consideration today, and I have to admit that you make a fair point. In both situations partisans allow anecdotes to confirm their political bias. And not just in these situations either. 

You’re not causing me to change my mind on this issue. But you are making me think that some of my previous reactions to shootings were far too emotionally charged. 

If someone asks me to be honest about this kind of thing ... I just think all people (myself included) are completely disingenuous when it comes to the most central tenets of their worldviews. Further -- that those central tenets, for all people, are never evidence-based, though we all convince ourselves they are (myself included). At consciousness's core -- the core of any person's public persona -- are reptile-brain emotions, not cold logic.

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26 minutes ago, squistion said:

No, none of your examples (I didn't have time toclick on the links, just looked at your summary) said that all gun owners have blood on their hands in the shootings thread.

I'm not digging back through that thread but KCitoins is right, it was said in that thread.  Now please stop cluttering up another yet another thread with nonsense back and forth with your usual fan club.

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1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

I don't have a good enough understanding of the E-Verify system to understand this.  How could he pass?  Stolen identity?  

Federal employees have to pass E-Verify. To me, it beggars belief that Rivera would have to go through E-Verify to work on a farm. Curious to see if that statement holds up in the end.

EDIT: Screwed up here -- see below.

Edited by Doug B
erroneous info
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13 minutes ago, thayman said:

I'm not digging back through that thread but KCitoins is right, it was said in that thread.  Now please stop cluttering up another yet another thread with nonsense back and forth with your usual fan club.

He made a sweeping generalization (someone said that all gun owners have blood on their hands) that if true, would probably have resulted in an admonition of Don't by one of the mods. That statement may have been made but I would like to some proof of it in that thread and see the context. I believe someone said the NRA has blood on their hands, but that is not the same as condemning every single gun owner in the nation.

Edited by squistion
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10 minutes ago, thayman said:

I'm not digging back through that thread but KCitoins is right, it was said in that thread.  Now please stop cluttering up another yet another thread with nonsense back and forth with your usual fan club.

Im sure it was said...doubtful just right after one shooting and not because of a history of shootings and many people doing absolutely nothing about it.

Equating the two is pretty bad...but expected.  Have to have the well, you all said this, so now its cool if "my team" says this on this incident.

Even when the situations aren't really comparable.

 

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So let’s concede that Rambling Wreck and Kcitons make a good point when they compare reactions to this murder to the reactions by gun control supporters to mass shootings. That doesn’t strengthen the current conservative argument for harsher actions against undocumented aliens in order to fight crimes like these- it weakens it, because it suggests, correctly, that it’s an emotional overreaction. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So let’s concede that Rambling Wreck and Kcitons make a good point when they compare reactions to this murder to the reactions by gun control supporters to mass shootings. That doesn’t strengthen the current conservative argument for harsher actions against undocumented aliens in order to fight crimes like these- it weakens it, because it suggests, correctly, that it’s an emotional overreaction. 

The only comparison I am making is that both sides use tragic events to score political points.  The poster acting like this is some new thing only done by the Republicans related to illegal immigration was incorrect.  

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6 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:
24 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Federal employees have to pass E-Verify. To me, it beggars belief that Rivera would have to go through E-Verify to work on a farm. Curious to see if that statement holds up in the end.

My last employer used e-verify. 72 employee company. 

I flubbed up.

Scratch what I said -- the federal-employee vetting is E-Quip, not E-Verify :bag: 

E-Verify really rings a bell for me in the government-employment context, though ... @Doctor Detroit, got any idea what I might be thinking about?

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So let’s concede that Rambling Wreck and Kcitons make a good point when they compare reactions to this murder to the reactions by gun control supporters to mass shootings. That doesn’t strengthen the current conservative argument for harsher actions against undocumented aliens in order to fight crimes like these- it weakens it, because it suggests, correctly, that it’s an emotional overreaction. 

Just a recognition that it's long overdue.

Wanting immigrants to come through the front door isn't a "harsh" request.  

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9 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

The only comparison I am making is that both sides use tragic events to score political points.  The poster acting like this is some new thing only done by the Republicans related to illegal immigration was incorrect.  

No I get that. But it begs the question: here we have a horrific crime committed by an undocumented alien. However, we know that only a tiny minority of undocumented aliens commit such crimes, and that the vast majority of the 12-15 million of them who are here are actually very law abiding. 

The question then becomes, shall we shape our laws as a reaction to the tiny minority? 

Edited by timschochet
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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

No I get that. But it begs the question: here we have a horrific crime committed by an undocumented alien. However, we know that only a tiny minority of undocumented aliens commit such crimes, and that the vast majority of the 12-15 million of them who are here are actually very law abiding. 

The question then becomes, shall we shape our laws as a reaction to the tiny majority? 

Sadly, this is the perfect scape goat for the anti-immigrant or anti-immigration crowd. You can see by the comments that some here want this to be the Willie Horton of the 2018 campaign and if we elect Democrats who want open borders we will see a lot more of these tragedies.

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16 minutes ago, timschochet said:

So let’s concede that Rambling Wreck and Kcitons make a good point when they compare reactions to this murder to the reactions by gun control supporters to mass shootings. That doesn’t strengthen the current conservative argument for harsher actions against undocumented aliens in order to fight crimes like these- it weakens it, because it suggests, correctly, that it’s an emotional overreaction. 

Both groups overreact because they choose to ignore statistics.  In full disclosure, I say that as someone who has an emotional and possibly (probably?) irrational viewpoint on gun control.

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No I get that. But it begs the question: here we have a horrific crime committed by an undocumented alien. However, we know that only a tiny minority of undocumented aliens commit such crimes, and that the vast majority of the 12-15 million of them who are here are actually very law abiding. 

The question then becomes, shall we shape our laws as a reaction to the tiny majority? 

Yeah I get the question and the debate.  We have millions of gun owners and only a handful shoot up schools.  Should we shape the laws as a reaction to those few?   The answer to both questions are political for most people.

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Yeah I get the question and the debate.  We have millions of gun owners and only a handful shoot up schools.  Should we shape the laws as a reaction to those few?   The answer to both questions are political for most people.

I know. 

I will say though, that there is one difference, at least for me. Most of the gun control proposals I support (eliminating private sales loopholes, banning gun stocks, universal registration) don’t hurt most gun owners. It might make things a little more burdensome for them, but that is hardly the same as what current conservative proposals would do to undocumented aliens. 

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Mollie's cousin has a message for you all:
 

Quote

 

sam‏ @samlucasss

hey i’m a member of mollie’s family and we are not so ####### small-minded that we generalize a whole population based on some bad individuals. now stop being a ####### snake and using my cousins death as political propaganda. take her name out of your mouth.

and fyi @RealCandaceO, my whole family is hurting right now and you’re not helping. you’re despicable and this is so far from the loving and kind soul that mollie was. my prayers go out to you in hopes that maybe you’ll become a better person. not hedging my bets tho.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Mollie's cousin has a message for you all:
 

 

So does her aunt...

“Please remember, Evil comes in EVERY color. Our family has been blessed to be surrounded by love, friendship and support throughout this entire ordeal by friends from all different nations and races. From the bottom of our hearts, thank you.”

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Just now, pantherclub said:

I dont know if I would have went with "refreshing" in regards to this

I think it’s refreshing when a horrific event like this does not cause one to lose their moral sense of right and wrong. I hope that I would be the same (though I hope much more that I never have to find out.) 

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2 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

link

I don't have a good enough understanding of the E-Verify system to understand this.  How could he pass?  Stolen identity?  

The SSA estimated that 1.8M immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards back in 2010. They estimated that the number will grow to 3.4M by 2040.

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25 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No. 

The equivalent of “the illegals need to go” would be “the guns need to go.” The equivalent of “we need gun reform” would be “we need immigration reform.” 

I'd gladly accept this proposal.

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20 minutes ago, JuniorGong said:

The SSA estimated that 1.8M immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards back in 2010. They estimated that the number will grow to 3.4M by 2040.

So these are people who will have taxes taken out of their paycheck but probably won't file for a tax return which means more money for the government?

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Like DD mentioned earlier in the thread, the US has relied upon undocumented laborers for decades. They do the jobs Americans don’t want to, at a wage well below what could be considered “good”. It works out well for everyone involved - laborers, businesses and consumers.

The move to squash undocumented labor, like it or not, will have a huge impact on cost of goods sold and services provided. 

A good example is my mother who lives in SW Florida. Her gated community uses a handful of local yard maintenance outfits. Who consist of I would imagine 90%+ undocumented workers. Take away that labor force and those companies have to pay citizens at the very least, minimum wage. Given the work involved, realistically almost double minimum wage. Well, now the cost of this weekly maintenance (mowing, edging, trimming, etc) goes from $45/week to $75/week. I made the numbers up, but you get the point. Take that further to the grocery store in prices of lettuce, milk and all that stuff we rely on extremely cheap labor for.

Edited by Jobber
Fixed typo
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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I know. 

I will say though, that there is one difference, at least for me. Most of the gun control proposals I support (eliminating private sales loopholes, banning gun stocks, universal registration) don’t hurt most gun owners. It might make things a little more burdensome for them, but that is hardly the same as what current conservative proposals would do to undocumented aliens. 

That's the craziest thing I've ever heard.  (I realize you made a typo here).

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