BladeRunner
Footballguy
Oh. So NOT voter suppression. Cool. Thanks for the clarification.
Seems like the problem has been solved.
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Voter Suppression (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TobiasFunke
- Start date
Seems like the problem has been solved.
timschochet
Footballguy
The law is voter suppression and racist and unjust so that’s a problem. The fact that certain people don’t have ID is not a problem.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
Obviously, for some unfathomable reason "you" are unable to acquire a valid ID so you must be un-American and thusly cannot vote. Get it?
Yenrub
Footballguy
I’m guessing that there is some percentage of mail in voters that have not decided on who they are voting for until close election day and they aren’t confident that if they mail in the ballot, that it will get to where it needs to get to in time.I appreciate the link.
As per the conversation with @IvanKaramazov above, this doesn't really appear to be an issue. Why can't they go down? Why does the new floor have to be 94 boxes? Don't they have a mailbox at the end of their driveway?
Why do "things' always have to go up and can NEVER go down? How did people survive 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago?
I’m also guessing that most people have had things “lost” in the mail before, my guess is people don’t want to take a chance with their vote being one of them.
We all saw the postal service fiasco last year.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
It seems you took something I never said and/or implied, attributed it to me and then argued against that.
If only there was a term to describe that disingenuous behavior.
If you can't be honest, then don't post anything.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I can't tell if this is a serious statement of what people perceive to be the problem, or if it's meant to be making fun of the people who have a problem with this bill.
FairWarning
Footballguy
As long as you prove who you are when signing up for the absentee ballot, I agree. I use the drop box in Michigan. Somewhere you have to prove you are a legal voter though.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Really have no problem with drop boxes at the public library or at the post office or wherever it’s agreed upon.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
What do you and your wife gain from using a public drop box as opposed to your own private drop box?
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Sea Duck
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Millions of people used dropboxes this election including me. Your skepticism that anyone would value having dropboxes is the outlier here. I thought @Yenrubarticulated some reasons in the post that you weren’t sure was serious.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
If drop boxes are such a waste why are they popular with voters?
Also, drop boxes enable voters to get their ballots turned in last minute. In many areas, you can’t stick your ballot in the mail on election day and have it received in time.
I can’t believe we’re even talking about this.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
You may read into my statement any way you like but I didn't quote you specifically nor single you out in any way. Nor was I being disingenuous.It seems you took something I never said and/or implied, attributed it to me and then argued against that.
If only there was a term to describe that disingenuous behavior.
If you can't be honest, then don't post anything.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
In your opinion, were @Yenrub's arguments fairly representative of those of most others who are opposed to this bill? (I don't have a notebook on that poster and I wasn't 100% sure which direction he was coming from).
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am happy to see that confidence is finally getting some weight in this discussion.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Extra time to deliberate and piece of mind knowing that our ballots will be counted.
Again, whether you personally think there is value there should be outweighed by the data. There is clearly demand for drop boxes as evidenced by their popularity with voters. What is the motivation to limit a voting option that voters clearly value?
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I thought he was just explaining why people like dropboxes. I think his reasons probably do reflect the feelings of lots of people that use dropboxes. Also the 55 cents @Sea Duckmentioned could be a reason.
I don’t think either of them were attempting to do an exhaustive list of the reasons people don’t like the Georgia law.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
There is also CLEARLY a demand for voter ID (72%, in fact). Do you support that as well across the board?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I spent most of the week ignoring this particular story because a) I don't live in or anywhere near George and b) I just kind of assumed that Republican would be up to some kind of schenanigans because they can't get past this crazy conspiracy theory involving the election being stolen. I'm only posting about it because it's pretty much dominating every other story right now and MLB in particular has made it basically impossible for me to not pay attention to it. So I guess you have MLB to thank for that. Their effort at awareness-raising worked in my case.
Now that I'm actually reading about it, I'm not seeing the big deal. I mean, I'm not opposed to drop boxes -- I just don't see why I'm supposed to be so strongly in favor of them that it's an outrage akin to Jim Crow that they're being reduced in number. Now that I talk to people in here, the narrative I'm getting is that there's another group of people out there who can't get past a crazy conspiracy theory involving the US Postal Service. That feels like strawmanning, but nobody is actually raising any issues with this legislation that come within radar distance of justifying the histrionic freak-out surrounding it.
If a normal, mentally healthy person said "I like drop boxes and all else equal it would be nice if there were more of them" I would agree. What I sincerely don't get is the argument that not having drop boxes is like Jim Crow. That's seriously insane, in the sense that the speaker is reacting irrationally to something that has little to no impact on anything.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
I have to say that it's a bit odd to see a libertarian making the Just-Trust-The-Post-Office! argument here.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Folks in Georgia have early voting, they have mail-in voting, and they have normal in-person voting. I'm not a historian by training, but I don't think that's how Jim Crow worked.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Every part of this bill targets African-Americans: many don’t have IDs, they use drop boxes, they vote on Sundays (“Souls to the Polls”), they are forced to stand in long lines so food and water while waiting for hours on end is important.
The Republican Party in Georgia is alarmed by the increased number of black voters and is trying to do everything they can to reduce it. That’s why the bill is racist.
timschochet
Footballguy
Only if there’s a way to do it which doesn’t discriminate against minorities and poor people (which does not exist currently.)
Solve that problem and I’m for it. But right now you’re trying to address an issue that doesn’t exist. There is no significant voter fraud in this country.
Sea Duck
Footballguy
No. I think that the Post Office is slow, inefficient, and has zero incentive to get my ballot to the elections office on time. Compare the number of "Post Office Finds Undelivered Mail" stories to the number of "Elections Officials Find Unemptied Drop Box" stories over the past 30 years. Drop boxes are far more efficient and have the added benefit of also being less expensive (for many users) and more secure.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Are critics saying this one part is like Jim Crow, or are using Jim Crow to describe the entire bill?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
This is why for years I’ve felt that voter ID is the issue that exposes supposed small govt conservatives as charlatans. The push to create more govt for a problem that doesn’t exist tells you all you need to know.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Take a step back. What are the problems that the GA bill is trying to fix? GA’s recent elections resulted in record voting numbers, and I don’t recall any instances of actual voter fraud. The Republican Secretary of State who oversaw the election says there was no voter fraud.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Sea Duck
Footballguy
I don't think that Voter ID laws are necessarily racist, so I'm not really "qualified" to answer your question.Just wondering....how is requiring an ID to purchase a firearm any less racist than requiring an ID to vote?
But, if I could speculate a bit, I'd say: many of these voter laws are designed to introduce burdens and costs into an activity that would otherwise be free; therefore, the laws tend to affect the poor more than the rest of society.
However, firearm purchases already include a cost. Therefore, when you add the requirement of an ID, it does not disproportionately affect the poor because those people were less likely to buy a gun in the first place.
(Yes, I know that it's possible to get a gun for free. But the point still holds: for the vast majority of cases, if you can afford to buy a gun then you can afford to get ID.)
Sea Duck
Footballguy
They're trying to fix all of the issues raised by Sidney Powell's lawsuits. Oh, wait....
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The entire bill. And when you ask people what specific parts of the bill cause them to have that reaction, they come back with stuff about drop boxes, which doesn't make any sense. No rational person really thinks that anybody is put out by dropping their ballot in their private mailbox as opposed to a public drop box. That's the kind of conclusion that you have to work really hard to talk yourself into.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Serious question -- do you use the postal service to mail in bills and stuff like that?
For example, I'm lazy and so I have nearly everything on autopay. But there's some stuff that I can't autopay. We bought our house with cash, so I have actually have to pay my property taxes intentionally now. They're due at the end of this month. My wife wrote a check and put it in the mail, because a) we're fat cats who bought a big fancy house with its own mailbox and stuff and b) it beats the alternative of dropping it off at the county building where I'm liable to have to rub elbows with commoners. It literally never occurred to me to worry about whether the post office would get my property taxes in on time.
Am I am a dupe who places too much confidence in the efficiency and tender mercies of government? Or are other people being a little paranoid?
timschochet
Footballguy
No. What they come back with is that if you put every aspect of the law together, it’s all designed to reduce black voting. THATS why it’s like Jim Crow, and racist.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sea Duck
Footballguy
Nope. I haven't had the need to buy a stamp in 2 years.
One key difference is that if your property tax check arrives late, it still counts.
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually I’m thinking it was the Senate elections that woke up the GOP. I’m guessing they weren’t that surprised by the Trump result, but January 5 shocked and scared the hell out of them.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I remember that. Not that one particular screen grab, but the general unease about the USPS. At the time, I mostly tuned that out because a) people's nerves were understandably on edge last fall and it seemed bad form to make an issue out of something that nobody around here was taking seriously and b) it was obvious at the time and especially obvious now that people were right to worry about whether Trump could be counted on to honor the election. I didn't think anybody really believed the thing about the USPS though. This thread is showing me that I was wrong, and that's kind of wild to think about.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
It’s the opposite. Why limit a tool that voters clearly value? It’s already absurd that in this day and age we still see people lined up for hours to vote in urban areas. Reducing drop boxes will only make it worse.
Why aren’t Republicans working with Democrats to find ways to make exercising the franchise easier?
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is just hand-waving. It's super-easy to point to specific things about Jim Crow that made that system bad. For example, literacy tests that are littered with trick questions that are impossible to answer "correctly" if you're black. Or making black voters and black voters only guess the number of jelly beans in jar before they can vote. See? It's easy to understand why stuff like that is bad. Just describing them in plain English is more than enough -- no exaggeration necessary.
"We'll let you vote early in person, early by mail, or in person on election day, but you if you opt for mail you need to drop your ballot into a mail box in time to get it postmarked* on or before election day" isn't Jim Crow. It's not even in the same universe as Jim Crow. You can't see Jim Crow from there. This not the kind of thing that healthy adults freak out over to the point of staging boycotts against their fellow citizens. We're talking about stuff that would be boring agenda items on a run-of-the-mill city council meeting, not the civil rights issue of our lifetimes.
* ETA I don't know whether Georgia requires mail-in ballots to be postmarked by election day or received by election day. For the record, I think it makes more sense to have a postmark standard but again this is the sort of thing that shouldn't get people worked up one way or the other.
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
@IvanKaramazov - imagine you wanted to reduce voting by certain populations but you didn’t want to do it in such an egregious manner that it would look like a literacy test or a poll tax. You’re sneaky enough to know that the public and probably the Supreme Court won’t let you get away with anything that’s too overt. What are some more subtle changes you might make that seem at least somewhat defensible in a superficial analysis?
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