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RB David Montgomery, DET (1 Viewer)

Hot Sauce Guy said:
“England” is what I meant. It’s different I’m on a roll, let it go. 

IMO they need to be more run-heavy. The Bears did well last week with a balanced offense. But they also failed to control the clock, which has been their bane all season. 

I just had this discussion with a Bears fan friend & we agreed - their defense gets winded from spending too much time on the field because they get too cute with the passing game. It’s allowed opponents to stay in games way too long, and by the time the 4th rolls around the D is less effective. 

For the Bears to be a winning football team they need to lean on that defense, but that also means ball control & giving the D a chance to rest. IMO that means ground & pound. Take some shots with PA off of that, sure. But they have a bruiser who seems to get better as opponents wear down - they should use him that way. 
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Yeah so here is my thing. You can set up the passing game by establishing the run. But you can also set up the running game by establishing the pass. Short quick throws. Bill Walsh. The key is to be successful early and then you can mix up the playcalling and theoretically dominate. You can start a game run heavy or you can start pass heavy.

But. Teams are daring the Bears to pass right now. They need to do it and do it successfully. Take the low hanging fruit. If you can get short passing gains on 1st down, the running game can open up.

If they want to control clock in the 2nd half they need to be balanced. It can skew run heavy or run light but it has to work. Once success is demonstrated, the playbook opens up. Right now the Bears offense is pigeonholed and they must counter. I don't think doubling down on running it at the teeth of the defense makes sense. Unless our blocking/schemes/timing improves dramatically.

 
barackdhouse said:
Yeah so here is my thing. You can set up the passing game by establishing the run. But you can also set up the running game by establishing the pass. Short quick throws. Bill Walsh. The key is to be successful early and then you can mix up the playcalling and theoretically dominate. You can start a game run heavy or you can start pass heavy.
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Daniel <<<<< Montana

Nagy <<<<< Walsh

cmon. 

But. Teams are daring the Bears to pass right now. They need to do it and do it successfully. Take the low hanging fruit. If you can get short passing gains on 1st down, the running game can open up.
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That’s not exactly correct though. The bears have established the run in exactly one game - when they fed Montgomery. 

The rest of the time they get cute, throwing on 1st down again & again to the point that play action has been totally ineffective. 

I observed in one Bears love-game topic that they passed 4 straight times, then tried play-action, which is crazy-pants play-calling..   

If they want to control clock in the 2nd half they need to be balanced. It can skew run heavy or run light but it has to work. Once success is demonstrated, the playbook opens up. Right now the Bears offense is pigeonholed and they must counter. I don't think doubling down on running it at the teeth of the defense makes sense. Unless our blocking/schemes/timing improves dramatically.
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I don’t think the bears have established themselves at all. They’ve been rudderless & without an identity. 

They need to establish an identity as something other than a gimmicky offense.

they need to line up all 3 RBs & 2 TEs as they’ve done & actually run out of that formation - that way when they call the gimmicky play from it defenders might be fooled. 

They need to bully opponents by showing them they can pound the rock. 

But looking at the first few games, it’s been a chaotic mess. 

And with a good, not great QB, getting cute with trick plays is a recipe for disaster. Run the damn ball. Play defense. It’s a tried & true formula. That doesn’t mean run at the teeth of a defense, though against the Raiders it’s not a bad plan. They have Cohen & Montgomery - they can run sweeps, stretch plays, counters, or yes even up the gut. Running the ball doesn’t mean they have to be predictable, and if the raiders sell out with 8 in the box the Bears can take their shots. 

But more than anything the Bears need to establish some sort of identity. 

One man’s opinion. 

 
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HSG: You need to load up GamePass and actually watch the second halves of the last three games.  They have been overfeeding Monty and he hasn’t been doing sh!t because of Nagy’s unimaginative run calls (surprise, surprise), ineffectiveness of the O-line (including dumb penalties) and opposing defenses knowing they’re going to run and crowding the line.  It ain’t rocket surgery.

2 yards, 3 yards, 2 yards, punt.  There are a few exceptions with some drives, but this is the overwhelming second half trend with the lead.

Expect to be frustrated until Nagy schemes Monty into space so he can take advantage of his biggest assets (juking & breaking single defender tackles).  

Hopefully it happens this weekend.

 
simey said:
DeAngelo Williams did this a lot when he first started out in the NFL, but he figured things out in time.
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So did Lesean McCoy and Ray Rice - and I'm sure many other rookies. This is one of the bigger factors of a RB taking the next step, realizing that NFL defenders are not as easy to shake off and sometimes taking that 3-4 yards by just moving forward is a win.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
• Travel to England seems harder on defenses than offenses. Maybe I’m off here (and I admit I’ve not researched this) but IIRC defenses have struggled going overseas on that turf. 
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Off the top of my head most of the London games have been low scoring. It may be a combination of some bad matchups and I think in a few cases the field was in very poor condition. This could actually be a good thing for Montgomery however as he could see a heavy workload in a close low scoring game.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Daniel <<<<< Montana

Nagy <<<<< Walsh

cmon. Dude. You're better than this. You actually do possess the knowledge that I never suggested anything close to what you are telling me to cmon for, tongue in cheek or not. I was using WCO as an example. And you know this. Countless quarterbacks ####tier than Montana have used the pass first to set up the run. Completely irrelevant that I invoked Walsh and Montana's names.

That’s not exactly correct though. The bears have established the run in exactly one game - when they fed Montgomery. 

The rest of the time they get cute, throwing on 1st down again & again (it can be ok if it works, like any other scheme if it fails on 1st down it puts you in a bad spot especially with a QB that isn't as good as arguably the best to ever play it) to the point that play action has been totally ineffective. 

I observed in one Bears love-game topic that they passed 4 straight times, then tried play-action, which is crazy-pants play-calling..   

I don’t think the bears have established themselves at all. They’ve been rudderless & without an identity. 

They need to establish an identity as something other than a gimmicky offense. <<<This part I agree with wholeheartedly.

they need to line up all 3 RBs & 2 TEs as they’ve done & actually run out of that formation - that way when they call the gimmicky play from it defenders might be fooled. 

They need to bully opponents by showing them they can pound the rock. tried and true way to end up *not* establishing #### when teams are stacked against you. You. Have. To. Counter.

But looking at the first few games, it’s been a chaotic mess. 

And with a good, not great QB, getting cute with trick plays is a recipe for disaster. Agreed, but I'm talking about short slants, hooks, screens. Not the stupid gimmicky #### Nagy is running. We agree there. Run the damn ball. Play defense. It’s a tried & true formula. That doesn’t mean run at the teeth of a defense, though against the Raiders it’s not a bad plan. They have Cohen & Montgomery - they can run sweeps, stretch plays, counters, or yes even up the gut. << Again we agree, the design of the run game so far has been terrible. Running the ball doesn’t mean they have to be predictable, and if the raiders sell out with 8 in the box the Bears can take their shots. 

But more than anything the Bears need to establish some sort of identity. 

One man’s opinion. 
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Yeah we mostly agree, I just think in order to set up the run, unless you have a killer offensive line, and unless you have already established the passing game, it is going to fail when they are stacked against you. We've seen this a million times. You have to counter. If we line up in predictable running formations and pound it, we lose. Tried and true.

The only way is to get teams to respect the passing game, even just a little. This means letting the QB (that isn't the best to ever play the position)  make some throws on first down. And then call the sweeps, stretches, counters, etc., on 2nd and 3rd down. I'm not saying this is the formula *every* game, but right now it should be. By doing so they will have more plays, more points, and Montgomery can feast in second halves, which is what we really want. Bears should be winning most games by 20+ right now. If they pound the rock into the stacked lines they will continue to be in much closer games than they should. 

I'm not advocating for passing 53 times a game compared to 13 runs, like in game 1. I think it should be balanced, as needed and dictated by game flow, which can skew it in either direction. But the Bears absolutely need to earn respect in the passing game, and running for 2 and 3 yards against stacked boxes is a tried and true way to fail at that. 

 
barackdhouse said:
Yeah so here is my thing. You can set up the passing game by establishing the run. But you can also set up the running game by establishing the pass. Short quick throws. Bill Walsh. The key is to be successful early and then you can mix up the playcalling and theoretically dominate. You can start a game run heavy or you can start pass heavy.

But. Teams are daring the Bears to pass right now. They need to do it and do it successfully. Take the low hanging fruit. If you can get short passing gains on 1st down, the running game can open up.

If they want to control clock in the 2nd half they need to be balanced. It can skew run heavy or run light but it has to work. Once success is demonstrated, the playbook opens up. Right now the Bears offense is pigeonholed and they must counter. I don't think doubling down on running it at the teeth of the defense makes sense. Unless our blocking/schemes/timing improves dramatically.
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good post!  agree totally.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
So did Lesean McCoy and Ray Rice - and I'm sure many other rookies. This is one of the bigger factors of a RB taking the next step, realizing that NFL defenders are not as easy to shake off and sometimes taking that 3-4 yards by just moving forward is a win.
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Montgomery has been doing that consistently since game 1. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
simey said:
DeAngelo Williams did this a lot when he first started out in the NFL, but he figured things out in time.
Click to expand...
So did Lesean McCoy and Ray Rice - and I'm sure many other rookies. This is one of the bigger factors of a RB taking the next step, realizing that NFL defenders are not as easy to shake off and sometimes taking that 3-4 yards by just moving forward is a win.
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Yep. Reggie Bush struggled with this throughout his firs three seasons.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Off the top of my head most of the London games have been low scoring. It may be a combination of some bad matchups and I think in a few cases the field was in very poor condition. This could actually be a good thing for Montgomery however as he could see a heavy workload in a close low scoring game.
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From what I’ve seen, every Bears game has been low scoring. 

 
Sure would be nice to know if this guy is about to break out, or will continue to be 2018 Jordan Howard in this offense.

I've got an offer out for him so I hope it's the former, but I'm far from convinced about it.

 
I also think it's bad for morale to always be slamming an ineffective run game into stacked lines. It says to the skill players that the coaches don't believe in you.  Even if that is true it is not the way to run a team or an offense. You have to put them in positions to succeed, even if they're in your doghouse.

@Hot Sauce Guy I'll say this, though. Starting run heavy against the Raiders this week is not a bad idea. If Nagy calls it the right way. And there are a lot of teams that I'd like to see run more of the old school run plays like the stretches, counters, up the gut, traps, and sort of bread and butter running styles instead of some of the gimmicky stuff being run out there. It's not just Nagy. The Seahawks should have run something more vanilla on 3rd and short to ice the game last night. Or been capable of calling something similar on the big 4th and 1 FG attempt earlier. 

I think offensive play calling is remarkably underrated in terms of it's influence on the outcomes of games. Even though we all know it and talk about it. It's a really big deal, and many coaches are remarkably horrible at it. To me there are only three strategies:

1 - Impose your will, in terms of whatever your identity may be.

2 - If you can't do #1 then you must counter and be pre-emptive about adjustments. It can't be reactive. You have to see things before they happen. If you can become good at doing this, it can become part of an identity. This is a path to get out of slumps and to build confidence. At which point, imposing one's will becomes viable.

3 - Lose

To be clear, what I am advocating for is intended to still be run heavy and would get Montgomery many more touches in the 1st halves of games. I'm just a big fan of high % passes on 1st down. If you get 5 or more, follow up by running it two more times. Something like that. Especially towards the end of drives when the defense is on their heels.

Ok rant over. Imma lay off the caffeine and try to get something done today. 

 
David Montgomery rushed 11 times for 25 yards and a touchdown in the Bears' Week 5 loss to the Raiders, adding one reception for 11 additional yards.

The biggest concern for Montgomery was that he only out-snapped Tarik Cohen 30-to-29. This 54% snap rate is the first time all season that Montgomery's percentage of time on the field hasn't risen. It's going to be hard to expect a ton of consistent production from any RB that isn't guaranteed to reach even 15 touches per game, particularly when that player hasn't shown the ability to create big plays in a below-average offense. Hopefully the Bears formulate a better way to get Montgomery going following their Week 6 bye.
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davearm said:
Sure would be nice to know if this guy is about to break out, or will continue to be 2018 Jordan Howard in this offense.
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Looking like the latter. Bears have 2 weeks to pull their heads out of their arses though so who knows what the future holds. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
The Bears are idiots playing idiot football with idiotic decision making because why would you only give your best weapon 12 touches? Idiocy, that’s why.. 
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Hilariously, people said exactly this same thing last year about Cohen, who is the one getting the rest of those touches now...

Some OCs just insist on rotating RBs whether or not the talent pool justifies it.  No idea why this is becoming increasingly popular, but it is.

 
Arodin said:
Hilariously, people said exactly this same thing last year about Cohen, who is the one getting the rest of those touches now...

Some OCs just insist on rotating RBs whether or not the talent pool justifies it.  No idea why this is becoming increasingly popular, but it is.
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They barely ran. It was their undoing. Nagy wanted to put the game on the big baller shot caller shoulders of his backup QB. 

Gah. 

 
I still like his talent but this is going to be a tough situation to watch unless the Bears can find a way to move the ball through the air. The opposing defenses simply don't respect the pass, so there won't be any running lanes. I don't blame the OL for this. Six guys can't be expected to consistently block eight guys.

 
davearm said:
If you've got a dogcrap OL that makes your RB look very pedestrian,  then maybe that factors into the decision to not give the guy 20+ touches?
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Or maybe the decision should be to do something besides run right at the teeth of the opposing defense. 

Maybe bring in 2 TE sets to help with the blocking & actually run some power. 

There are other ways to run the ball besides 2 yards & a cloud of dust. 

 
I can longer longer start him with how terrible the OL is playing and how bad the play calling has been.  I still like his talent and think he's a better than average RB.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
Can't rely on a TD every week though.  He needs more yards and more receptions.
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Believe me, I feel that. I lost by 9 points this week. Montgomery should have been a 20 point play, easy. 

But that said,

Weeks 2-5:

13.8

11.1

9.7

10.6

At least it’s a consistent floor. What he needs is usage to give him a more viable ceiling. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Believe me, I feel that. I lost by 9 points this week. Montgomery should have been a 20 point play, easy. 

But that said,

Weeks 2-5:

13.8

11.1

9.7

10.6

At least it’s a consistent floor. What he needs is usage to give him a more viable ceiling. 
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I look forward to seeing him run behind a line that can open up holes.  The guy is hard to take down and I really like him in goal line situations.  I also love the fact that he's a great receiving back.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I look forward to seeing him run behind a line that can open up holes.  The guy is hard to take down and I really like him in goal line situations.  I also love the fact that he's a great receiving back.
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Being on pace for 28-29 catches makes a guy a "GREAT" receiving back?

You guys really need to start tempering your expectations. He's simply not fast enough for the NFL and the Bears offense sucks. Just another Ka'Deem Carey/Jeremy Langford clone. 

 
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Hawkeye21 said:
I'm going by his skill set, not his current usage.  He is a great receiving back and should be used as one.  He's also great at breaking tackles and fighting for extra yards.
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You have to be decent at breaking tackles when you're not fast enough to get away from anybody. 

And fwiw, with his running style, going to be a short career. 

 
MrSoup said:
You have to be decent at breaking tackles when you're not fast enough to get away from anybody. 

And fwiw, with his running style, going to be a short career. 
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That may all be correct but doesn't make him a bad RB.  I don't expect him to be some elite player but I do expect him to be able to put up top 10 numbers for fantasy football.  Based on the OL right now that's not going to happen.

 
MrSoup said:
You have to be decent at breaking tackles when you're not fast enough to get away from anybody. 

And fwiw, with his running style, going to be a short career. 
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This trolling isn’t endearing. All you’re doing is crapping on people’s observations while contributing nothing to the discussion. 

Montgomery is not slow. He ran a low 4.5 at the combine, which he improved on from the 4.65 time he’d previously been recorded at. Low 4.5 is a solid speed for an NFL power back. He’s also quite elusive & set, and broke records for broken tackles in college - a skill set he shown has translated well to the NFL. 

As for your prior false premise, he is a capable receiver regardless of pace. If they aren’t throwing to him it makes him no less capable, but hey, nice logical fallacy. 

:doh:  

If the bears commit to Montgomery’s usage, he will have better games ahead. 

Looking ahead to 2020, I think he’s going to be a nice post-hype sleeper with great upside IF the Bears improve this god awful OL. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
This trolling isn’t endearing. All you’re doing is crapping on people’s observations while contributing nothing to the discussion. 

Montgomery is not slow. He ran a low 4.5 at the combine, which he improved on from the 4.65 time he’d previously been recorded at. Low 4.5 is a solid speed for an NFL power back. He’s also quite elusive & set, and broke records for broken tackles in college - a skill set he shown has translated well to the NFL. 

As for your prior false premise, he is a capable receiver regardless of pace. If they aren’t throwing to him it makes him no less capable, but hey, nice logical fallacy. 

:doh:  

If the bears commit to Montgomery’s usage, he will have better games ahead. 

Looking ahead to 2020, I think he’s going to be a nice post-hype sleeper with great upside IF the Bears improve this god awful OL. 
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DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH CHICAGO BEARS FOOTBALL GAMES? Because I've watched every single snap of the football.

It is obvious this dude is MEDIOCRE at best and you guys are just too stubborn or delusional to admit it yet, falling back on combine numbers and college stats. 

 
MrSoup said:
DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH CHICAGO BEARS FOOTBALL GAMES? Because I've watched every single snap of the football.
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Yes, I’ve watched several. 

Apparently with a more qualified eye than you. 

It is obvious this dude is MEDIOCRE at best and you guys are just too stubborn or delusional to admit it yet, falling back on combine numbers and college stats. 
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:fishing:

so glad we have an “ignore user” feature. 

 
MrSoup said:
DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH CHICAGO BEARS FOOTBALL GAMES? Because I've watched every single snap of the football.

It is obvious this dude is MEDIOCRE at best and you guys are just too stubborn or delusional to admit it yet, falling back on combine numbers and college stats. 
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Of course I do.  I even go on a Bear's fan board and discuss all the games.  Not only that but I watched him play a lot for Iowa State.  I have a feeling I've seen him play more than you have.  I also don't have a college bias towards him because as an Iowa Hawkeye fan I can't stand Iowa State.  I just know he's good.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
Of course I do.  I even go on a Bear's fan board and discuss all the games.  Not only that but I watched him play a lot for Iowa State.  I have a feeling I've seen him play more than you have.  I also don't have a college bias towards him because as an Iowa Hawkeye fan I can't stand Iowa State.  I just know he's good.
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Almost every time he touches the ball he looks explosive, and he’s even made some in-run adjustments, like last week on the busted play up the guy that he bounced outside for 30+.

he’s shown good hands as a receiver, and he’s displayed both tremendous power & the ability to elude tacklers with shiftiness for his size. 

Give this kid an OL & he’s a top 10 back in the NFL.

as-is, it’s a waste of talent unless the Bears can figure it out.  

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Montgomery is not slow. He ran a low 4.5 at the combine, which he improved on from the 4.65 time he’d previously been recorded at. Low 4.5 is a solid speed for an NFL power back. He’s also quite elusive & set, and broke records for broken tackles in college - a skill set he shown has translated well to the NFL. 

As for your prior false premise, he is a capable receiver regardless of pace. If they aren’t throwing to him it makes him no less capable, but hey, nice logical fallacy. 

:doh:  

If the bears commit to Montgomery’s usage, he will have better games ahead. 

Looking ahead to 2020, I think he’s going to be a nice post-hype sleeper with great upside IF the Bears improve this god awful OL. 
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This says he ran a 4.63 at the combine. Same here. Just talking combine metrics, the poor vertical and 10 yard split cause more concern than a lack of speed. These show up on the field as a lack of acceleration. This deficiency gets exacerbated by poor offensive line play when holes close quickly. To be fair though, Cohen has also struggled to run the ball.

Montgomery has tackle breaking skills and some impressive elusiveness for a man his size, I'll give you that. Not sure how far that gets him though, maybe an extra yard or two sometimes. Make one guy miss, but then the next guy is right there. It's sort of kinda good. I still say he profiles more as a volume grinder than anything else. Maybe some confirmation bias here, but his performance thus far seems to back it up. The pass catching helps some, except without burst or speed he's not really much of a threat to get down field or earn a whole bunch of YAC. Nobody will confuse this man with Kamara; he's not even the best pass catching back on his own team.

 
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cloppbeast said:
This says he ran a 4.63 at the combine. Same here. Just talking combine metrics, the poor vertical and 10 yard split cause more concern than a lack of speed. These show up on the field as a lack of acceleration. This deficiency gets exacerbated by poor offensive line play when holes close quickly. To be fair though, Cohen has also struggled to run the ball.

Montgomery has tackle breaking skills and some impressive elusiveness for a man his size, I'll give you that. Not sure how far that gets him though, maybe an extra yard or two sometimes. Make one guy miss, but then the next guy is right there. It's sort of kinda good. I still say he profiles more as a volume grinder than anything else. Maybe some confirmation bias here, but his performance thus far seems to back it up. The pass catching helps some, except without burst or speed he's not really much of a threat to get down field or earn a whole bunch of YAC. Nobody will confuse this man with Kamara; he's not even the best pass catching back on his own team.
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Sorry, it was at his pro day.

he improved from 4.63 at the combine to Low 4.5 at the pro day

https://withthefirstpick.com/2019/03/26/david-montgomery-40-yard-dash-pro-day-iowa-state/amp/

never said he was a speedster, but 4.5 isn’t slow. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
Almost every time he touches the ball he looks explosive, and he’s even made some in-run adjustments, like last week on the busted play up the guy that he bounced outside for 30+.

he’s shown good hands as a receiver, and he’s displayed both tremendous power & the ability to elude tacklers with shiftiness for his size. 

Give this kid an OL & he’s a top 10 back in the NFL.

as-is, it’s a waste of talent unless the Bears can figure it out.  
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Longest run of the year is 25 yards bud. Took 5 seconds to Google that. I suspect this means you exaggerate numbers to fit your side of the argument whenever convenient. 

 
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