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Go Fund Me for the Wall ......


Getzlaf15

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6 minutes ago, That one guy said:

It’s probably just me, but...

How does eliminating or reducing foreign aid (our money) to Mexico equal Mexico paying (their money) for the wall?  Even the “indirectly” angle requires it still being monies from Mexico...

Yeah, it’s probably me that’s confused 

During the 2016 campaign, Trump stated that on "Day One" he would block wire transfers and foreign aid to Mexico, and that on "Day Two" Mexico would agree to give us a one-time payment of $10 billion to lift the restrictions.

Pretty genius, eh?

 

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7 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

During the 2016 campaign, Trump stated that on "Day One" he would block wire transfers and foreign aid to Mexico, and that on "Day Two" Mexico would agree to give us a one-time payment of $10 billion to lift the restrictions.

Pretty genius, eh?

 

I need a still-frame of Trudeau’s face during Trump asking where to sign on the new NAFTA deal.  That’ll be my new go to when needing a confused or perplexed reaction to Trump and Trump logic

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13 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

During the 2016 campaign, Trump stated that on "Day One" he would block wire transfers and foreign aid to Mexico, and that on "Day Two" Mexico would agree to give us a one-time payment of $10 billion to lift the restrictions.

Pretty genius, eh?

 

:lol: is that true?

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55 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

“Real change begins with immediately repealing and replacing the disaster known as Obamacare." (with... something.  Maybe?)

“we’re going to have insurance for everybody.” (if you exclude a whole bunch of people)

"I Believe In Raising Taxes on the Wealthy, Including Myself" (I also believe in that Jesus guy.  People say he's the best. Lots of people. Even though he sounds Mexican.  Some of them are good, right?)

"We spend $6 trillion in the Middle East and we have potholes all over our highways and our roads ... so we're going to take care of that. Infrastructure — we're going to start spending on infrastructure big. Not like we have a choice. It's not like, oh gee, let's hold it off." (If we don't gut revenue by going against what I professed to believe in and lower taxes while increasing spending during a time of prosperity because all I know is debt and breaking promises)

"I'm working on getting my tax returns out, but it's not like a normal tax return." (Because, you know, all the Presidents before me filed on the 1040E-Z)

"Well, I'm not releasing the tax returns because as you know, they're under audit." (How'd that audit turn out?)

"as soon as the audit's finished." (2020?)

"I got elected, so people must not care about seeing them." (I'm a lying sack of #### and most of you don't care, so F off)

Throw the damn towel!

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1 hour ago, butcher boy said:

 

Did he specifically say they would pay upfront?  Paying for the wall indirectly also counts. I never thought Mexico would just write us a check upfront. Your own linked article states that he said they would pay indirectly either through reduced foreign aid and/or through other revenue from Mexico (which I assume is now clarified to be partially through USMCA) 

I know that doesn't count for those of you putting his every word under a microscope, but there is more than one way to pay for something.    

So just to clarify, it’s the USMCA that means Mexico is paying for the wall?

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16 minutes ago, The General said:
31 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

During the 2016 campaign, Trump stated that on "Day One" he would block wire transfers and foreign aid to Mexico, and that on "Day Two" Mexico would agree to give us a one-time payment of $10 billion to lift the restrictions.

Pretty genius, eh?

:lol: is that true?

Stable genius trying to convince Bob Woodward that he's a stable genius

I love the part where his plan includes the phrase "Mexico will immediately protest". Pretty sure what would actually happen is that they would immediately laugh, and then they would immediately tell Trump, "Good luck with that."

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14 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Still no wall and still no Clintons in jail. What kind of prez is this? 😠

Did he specifically say that he would lock her up by January 3, 2019??? Unless you can prove otherwise, you guys incorrectly assumed that "Lock her up" meant that he was actually going to lock her up by January 3, 2019.

He will lock her up indirectly, over time.

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2 hours ago, butcher boy said:

He also mentioned reduced foreign aid as a way of paying for it.  We give Mexico $300M a year in foreign aid mainly to help with narcotics, but that obviously isn't money well spent based on the continuing drug and crime problem.  Reduce that aid down significantly and the $5B is paid most likely before construction is completed.  

Oh come on.

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30 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

Stable genius trying to convince Bob Woodward that he's a stable genius

I love the part where his plan includes the phrase "Mexico will immediately protest". Pretty sure what would actually happen is that they would immediately laugh, and then they would immediately tell Trump, "Good luck with that."

Amazing. 

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5 hours ago, butcher boy said:

Who cares when he said what?  Mexico's President said no, so we structured USMCA to pay for it indirectly.  The end result is the same.  

Besides, Obama promised you could keep your own doctors too, but y'all didn't come out of the woodwork for that doozy, did you?

LOLOLOLOL! 

Such lies.

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4 hours ago, Joe Summer said:

The Trump administration hasn't even bothered to calculate how long it would take for NAFTA to indirectly pay for the wall.

They know that his supporters don't require that information to believe him.

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and say that NAFTA would indirectly pay for the wall, and I wouldn't lose any voters, okay?"

Amazing isn't it. 

 

5 hours ago, [scooter] said:

Congrats on finally discovering something that I linked 2 pages ago.

This plan has nothing to do with NAFTA, though.

Also, it would be illegal, which is why Trump abandoned the idea in 2017.

Also, it wouldn't work because there are other ways of sending money back to Mexico. If you cut off wire transfers, then old fashioned capitalism and innovation (e.g., cryptocurrency) will fill the void.

Someone will send that money legally for those illegals, for a small fee.

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1 hour ago, Getzlaf15 said:

$18,913,665

 

CONSERVATIVES, DO NOT READ THIS---

 

 

 

 

.... Liberals-- hello.  Did you know that $18.9 million dollars is more than the grand total of outside money raised by every candidate on both sides during the Colorado State Senate campaign, a statehouse which ultimately flipped from GOP to Democratic control in the 2018 midterms? Start about halfway down in that link for just a few of the countless examples of how a little money can make a big difference at the state level. Think about what these people could have done if they spent their money a little more wisely in furtherance of their political goals instead of wasting it on a hilarious boondoggle.

If you want to help create fairer congressional districts after the 2020 census, help provide for better access to the ballot box across the country, and help further any number of progressive measures at the state level, check out the Give Smart initiative, which raises money for deserving state candidates and allocates that money based on where it is most likely to help flip a state legislature. There's a sign up for their newsletter in the link, and I'll be sure to post in the 2020 elections thread when they start taking donations for targeted candidates and races again.

Edited by TobiasFunke
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Trump just said that - 

a) the new NAFTA is completely different than the old NAFTA and

b) will save us so much money that it will

c) pay for the wall over and over in the span of 1, 2, 3 years.

 

---

I do not believe him.

Is there anyone who can support these statements? 

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6 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Trump just said that - 

a) the new NAFTA is completely different than the old NAFTA and

b) will save us so much money that it will

c) pay for the wall over and over in the span of 1, 2, 3 years.

 

---

I do not believe him.

Is there anyone who can support these statements? 

No one believes him. But it's easy enough to ask a neutral party to keep a ledger. Also, to figure out how that imaginary 'saved' money goes into the Treasury. Anyway, when they can show that money saved is legitimately at 25 billion, vote on using it for a wall.

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1 minute ago, JuniorNB said:

No one believes him. But it's easy enough to ask a neutral party to keep a ledger. Also, to figure out how that imaginary 'saved' money goes into the Treasury. Anyway, when they can show that money saved is legitimately at 25 billion, vote on using it for a wall.

And that's additional money saved because of the new NAFTA v the original NAFTA.

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3 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

No one believes him. But it's easy enough to ask a neutral party to keep a ledger. Also, to figure out how that imaginary 'saved' money goes into the Treasury. Anyway, when they can show that money saved is legitimately at 25 billion, vote on using it for a wall.

Trump was just asked how Mexico is actually paying under the new NAFTA and had to basically admit that they were American taxpayer dollars. 

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1 hour ago, whoknew said:

Trump just said that - 

a) the new NAFTA is completely different than the old NAFTA and

b) will save us so much money that it will

c) pay for the wall over and over in the span of 1, 2, 3 years.

 

---

I do not believe him.

Is there anyone who can support these statements? 

Legitimately?  No....it's all a complete fabrication

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Those remote areas where President Trump says they are just driving or walking across the border.......It could be expensive maintaining this steel wall.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x0pNOhKzT_c

And if there are slats what’s to stop you from just passing the drugs through to someone on the other side?

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32 minutes ago, the moops said:

Is this on your daily to do list? 

I've never used to do lists.   

 

33 minutes ago, the moops said:

Is this on your daily to do list? 

double, sorry

31 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

He's going to be doing that for years if he's waiting to hit that $5 billion goal.  There will be members on here that will have been dead for years before it gets to $5 billion.

I'm not waiting for anything. Just reporting the totals.   I find it convenient to do around this time each day.

I still find it really odd that just because I started the thread, that so many have taken just that as to what my opinion is on this subject.   I posted several pages ago that I'm against the wall. I'm all for securing the borders much better than we do now, but this ain't the answer.  I'm all for legal immigration. I've randomly met two people (one at a poker tournament) that had recently passed their tests and became citizens. The stories they told me of their journeys were incredibly inspiring.  I'm all for protecting those that are in line and doing it right. 

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Mexico will not be paying for a wall!!!

First, the renegotiated North American Free Trade Agreement is not in effect yet. Trump rebranded the updated NAFTA as the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA), but it still needs congressional approval.

And the deal, literally, does not include any language saying Mexico will pay the United States for the wall.

In addition, U.S.-Mexico trade has been duty free for more than a decade, and the renegotiated trade deal does not add new tariffs on goods coming from Mexico to the United States, said Lori Wallach, director at Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch.

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58 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

I've never used to do lists.   

 

double, sorry

I'm not waiting for anything. Just reporting the totals.   I find it convenient to do around this time each day.

I still find it really odd that just because I started the thread, that so many have taken just that as to what my opinion is on this subject.   I posted several pages ago that I'm against the wall. I'm all for securing the borders much better than we do now, but this ain't the answer.  I'm all for legal immigration. I've randomly met two people (one at a poker tournament) that had recently passed their tests and became citizens. The stories they told me of their journeys were incredibly inspiring.  I'm all for protecting those that are in line and doing it right. 

Might be because early on you were saying "we" quoting possibly from the site, but not actually using the quote function or quotation marks...making it look like you were part of the we that was supporting the go fund me and the wall.

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Good read

A conservative challenged liberal Facebook friends to “make a case, not based on emotion” against Trump’s wall. Conservative buddies flooded his post with snide remarks about how this would be impossible for “deluded libs.”

“Okay, I’ll play,” I responded. And in order to avoid being accused of bias, I explained that I would use only conservative sources to prove my point. My primary source was a policy paper by the Cato Institute, a conservative, rightwing think tank, along with other conservative voices (listed at the end of the piece). Here’s why I’m against the wall, I wrote:

1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?

2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.”They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!

3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.

4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.

5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?

 

8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.

9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done.Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs. And if seasonal worker do get in, a wall makes it harder for them to leave! A wall traps migrant farm laborers in our country.

10. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.

11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?

As the conservatives of the Cato Institute put it, “President Trump’s wall would be a mammoth expenditure that would have little impact on illegal immigration.” (Emphasis mine) Also it would create many “direct harms:” “the spending, the taxes, the eminent domain abuse, and the decrease in immigrant’s freedoms of movement.”

And, we must add, since conservative sources do not — that the environmental harms are likely to be severe.

In other words, the facts show that walls don’t work and they create even bigger, more expensive problems.

So what happened after I posted this conservative-sourced, fact-based list of why the wall is a bad idea?

Silence.

I waited for someone to respond, to engage with me. Where were the angry defenses or rebuttals? But when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldn’t find it.

My FB friend had deleted it. You could say, like Trump with the government, he shut me down rather than deal with the facts.

The ugly genius of Trump is his ability to manipulate deep, primal emotions — namely fear and hate. He, along with Fox News, have convinced his base that they are in “extreme danger” from immigrants and only a wall will make them “safe.”

Unfortunately, the need to “feel” safe is much stronger than the will to grapple with a complex, multi-faceted problem.

And so, here we are, paralyzed by shutdowns at every turn.

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3 hours ago, gianmarco said:

Good read

A conservative challenged liberal Facebook friends to “make a case, not based on emotion” against Trump’s wall. Conservative buddies flooded his post with snide remarks about how this would be impossible for “deluded libs.”

“Okay, I’ll play,” I responded. And in order to avoid being accused of bias, I explained that I would use only conservative sources to prove my point. My primary source was a policy paper by the Cato Institute, a conservative, rightwing think tank, along with other conservative voices (listed at the end of the piece). Here’s why I’m against the wall, I wrote:

1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?

2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.”They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!

3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.

4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.

5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?

 

8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.

9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done.Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs. And if seasonal worker do get in, a wall makes it harder for them to leave! A wall traps migrant farm laborers in our country.

10. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.

11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?

As the conservatives of the Cato Institute put it, “President Trump’s wall would be a mammoth expenditure that would have little impact on illegal immigration.” (Emphasis mine) Also it would create many “direct harms:” “the spending, the taxes, the eminent domain abuse, and the decrease in immigrant’s freedoms of movement.”

And, we must add, since conservative sources do not — that the environmental harms are likely to be severe.

In other words, the facts show that walls don’t work and they create even bigger, more expensive problems.

So what happened after I posted this conservative-sourced, fact-based list of why the wall is a bad idea?

Silence.

I waited for someone to respond, to engage with me. Where were the angry defenses or rebuttals? But when I searched for the post after a few days, I couldn’t find it.

My FB friend had deleted it. You could say, like Trump with the government, he shut me down rather than deal with the facts.

The ugly genius of Trump is his ability to manipulate deep, primal emotions — namely fear and hate. He, along with Fox News, have convinced his base that they are in “extreme danger” from immigrants and only a wall will make them “safe.”

Unfortunately, the need to “feel” safe is much stronger than the will to grapple with a complex, multi-faceted problem.

And so, here we are, paralyzed by shutdowns at every turn.

Good post. The wall is so mind numbingly stupid.

That a catch phrase, formed around this idea, was the main driving force to elect this petty little man so obviously ill-equipped for the job is such sad commentary on our country. 

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13 minutes ago, The General said:

Why would it be different than other scams that have been discovered on GoFundMe?

the amount of money involved.  I wouldn't trust them at all in the future if they gave the money to him personally.   And who is going to pay the 2-3% cc fees on each end if there is a refund?

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16 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

the amount of money involved.  I wouldn't trust them at all in the future if they gave the money to him personally.   And who is going to pay the 2-3% cc fees on each end if there is a refund?

 

17 minutes ago, Lutherman2112 said:

 

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