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MAGA hats/clothing plus politically related apparel discussion thread (2 Viewers)

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BobbyLayne said:
I def have not either 

Before last week I thought it was headgear only intended for private/closed meetings
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I saw a bunch of young Providence fans sporting them at a Seton Hall game at the Prudential Center in Newark once. They were a bunch of loudmouth tools (but that's typical at sporting events in general).

 
I saw a tweet today raised an interesting point.  When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many people said that parents should not let their boys go out wearing hoods if they didn't want others to perceive them as thugs.  This sounds exactly like having white kids wear MAGA hats and them being perceived as spoiled, rich and racist. 

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I saw a tweet today raised an interesting point.  When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many people said that parents should not let their boys go out wearing hoods if they didn't want others to perceive them as thugs.  This sounds exactly like having white kids wear MAGA hats and them being perceived as spoiled, rich and racist. 
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Are you saying people are inconsistent in their political arguments?

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I saw a tweet today raised an interesting point.  When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many people said that parents should not let their boys go out wearing hoods if they didn't want others to perceive them as thugs.  This sounds exactly like having white kids wear MAGA hats and them being perceived as spoiled, rich and racist. 
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I found Henry’s earlier write up interesting, but it was completely loaded with assumptions and stereotypes.

Sometimes you need to step back and realize these are all complex individuals and we really know very little about them.  Actions can be criticized, but those actions are often spun into manufactured life stories based on our own biases.

Teenagers especially make choices that may seem really odd to most of us.  My daughter will do things that seem well out of character, but when she explains them it’s generally just a combination of rash judgement, peer pressure, and/or lack of experience.  Basically, she was being a teenager.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
I saw a bunch of young Providence fans sporting them at a Seton Hall game at the Prudential Center in Newark once. They were a bunch of loudmouth tools (but that's typical at sporting events in general).
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Ooooh, that’s pretty brave - it’s two-three blocks from Newark Penn Station to the arena. But only across the street to the parking lot.

(HRC took Newark 73K-5K.)

 
knowledge dropper said:
So a black person in a MAGA hat is a racist or a Trump supporter?
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Did he claim anything about racist?

Also yeah...I’d huess someone in a MAGA hat is a Trump supporter.  I don’t think that is a very crazy conclusion.

 
Sinn Fein said:
:shrug:  I don't think they are spoiled or rich.
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I don't think that either, that's just what the tweet was about.  There are a lot of people who reacted right away that those kids were racist Trump supporters.  There are still people that believe it yet.  I don't know enough about those kids to make any judgement.  

 
knowledge dropper said:
So a black person in a MAGA hat is a racist or a Trump supporter?
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Well he's certainly presenting himself as a Trump supporter, not sure how you could take issue with that.

As for the racism: there are far fewer people saying MAGA hat or Trump supporter = racism than you and your cohorts seem to believe. I know there's a few around here, but they are far from the consensus and the approach gets criticism from the left (ie me and others) as well as the right. So this complaint feels like a bit of a straw man to me.

 
knowledge dropper said:
Honest Question 

How do those that are anti-Trump react when they see a minority wearing a MAGA hat?
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I usually think to myself "Wow, thank goodness I don't refer to that person as 'a minority.'"

 
knowledge dropper said:
Honest Question 

How do those that are anti-Trump react when they see a minority wearing a MAGA hat?
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Honest question: what do Fox News viewers think of George Soros when they hear the Fox News claim that Soros helped the Nazis root out and steal from Jews?

 
Regarding the MAGA hats as a symbol:

Thought i’d post this since the “liberal echo chamber” thread is currently being inundated with laments over unfairness and the MAGA hats were brought up.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/01/24/maga-hats-racism-donald-trump/2659479002/

A couple points that I thought well illustrated the thinking of those who view red hats as such a powerful negative symbol (myself included).

  • “MAGA” necessarily implies a return to a better past time. “Again” implies America was great once but no longer is.The Reverend they quote there asks “what period in American history are they referring to”? Is it when we rounded up Japanese Americans? Was it during the civil rights era? Was it when we turned a blind eye to gay people being attacked and discriminated against? Are those the times when America was great? MAGA gear, particularly the hats, almost certainly represents anti-diversity, homophobia, white nationalism.
He also says, which I agree with, you can’t compartmentalize your support for Trump. If you say, for example, I’m a Trump supporter because I like his deregulatory policies but I hate how he treats people, I hate his racism, you are essentially saying that deregulatory policy holds more weight than how he and his administration treat non white vulnerable groups. What kind of person would that be?

Thats why I don’t buy this distinction between being a racist and just being a person who does not view racism and bigotry as disqualifying. It’s a distinction without a functional difference. It’s, speaking generally, not far removed from the confederate flag/statue debates. 

 
knowledge dropper said:
Honest Question 

How do those that are anti-Trump react when they see a minority wearing a MAGA hat?
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The same way I felt that time I caught a Coelacanth off the coast of Madagascar.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Well he's certainly presenting himself as a Trump supporter, not sure how you could take issue with that.

As for the racism: there are far fewer people saying MAGA hat or Trump supporter = racism than you and your cohorts seem to believe. I know there's a few around here, but they are far from the consensus and the approach gets criticism from the left (ie me and others) as well as the right. So this complaint feels like a bit of a straw man to me.
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Hi @TobiasFunke I fully understand you have no way of knowing as we deleted the offending posts, but "Maga hate = racist idiot" was not some isolated thing. It did not feel "fringe". I'd like to hope it was but that's not how it appeared. Again, no fault of yours as you can't see what's deleted. Just wanted to say I fully understand the people offended by the "Maga hat = racist idiot" stuff. We as a board, unfortunately, gave them good reason to.

I also believe, the majority of people on the Anti Trump side of things see that kind of gross generalization as hurtful to their side too. What I'd hope we'd do in the future is any over the line behavior like that reported and called out. Thanks. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
I do think he would welcome them with open arms. In fact I have very little doubt about that. His laserlike focus on the southern border as a source of terrorism threats and illegal narcotics while completely ignoring the northern border which is actually the more dangerous one for terrorist passage and the source of the most dangerous opioids entering the country from abroad is just one of countless examples of him making decisions based on the skin color of foreigners rather than objective facts. 

But the question also implies a limited view of racism, and ignores my basic point. Even if he didn't, that would be discrimination based on national origin, obviously. Countries don't emigrate, people do. And there is no rational reason to discriminate against the entire continent of Africa- as I said even if you think it's poor or uneducated or whatever on average that's obviously not true everywhere, and I'd argue that believing it to be is very clearly racism given that the only commonality that covers basically the entire continent is darker skin color. So why group it together? It might be racism borne of absurd ignorance rather than malice, but that doesn't make it not racism.

As I quoted a couple days ago, "racism is not merely a simplistic hatred. It is, more often, broad sympathy toward some and broader skepticism toward others." Trump is clearly guilty of broad sympathy towards white people and broader skepticism towards non-whites, both in the "####hole countries" rant and in many, many other examples.

FWIW I do agree with your point about MAGA hats and Trump supporters, though. It's unfair to call them racist based on solely the hat or their support for Trump. I've been railing against that since before the election and will keep doing it.  They are people who accept Trump's rampant bigotry and misogyny and don't think those things should disqualify someone from the presidency. That is damning enough, no need to imply something that isn't there.
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I don’t think I agree with this. It’s a distinction without meaning. Accepting rampant bigotry and misogyny...but not being a bigot or misogynist. I’m not really sure how that works. 

 
Ranethe said:
I don’t think I agree with this. It’s a distinction without meaning. Accepting rampant bigotry and misogyny...but not being a bigot or misogynist. I’m not really sure how that works. 
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It's a question of tolerating something vs advocating for it. For example I supported Hillary Clinton for president.  That means I tolerated/condoned/whatever her lack of transparency and her hawkish foreign policy.  That doesn't mean I liked them, only that I didn't consider them disqualifying. The same dynamic is presumably at work with many Trump supporters, except obviously tolerating bigotry and misogyny isn't quite the same as tolerating lack of transparency. And I know the hat has taken on a meaning of its own, but in the interest of fairness  I kind of default to that perspective for hat wearers too.

 
TobiasFunke said:
It's a question of tolerating something vs advocating for it. For example I supported Hillary Clinton for president.  That means I tolerated/condoned/whatever her lack of transparency and her hawkish foreign policy.  That doesn't mean I liked them, only that I didn't consider them disqualifying. The same dynamic is presumably at work with many Trump supporters, except obviously tolerating bigotry and misogyny isn't quite the same as tolerating lack of transparency. And I know the hat has taken on a meaning of its own, but in the interest of fairness  I kind of default to that perspective for hat wearers too.
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I know many people that thought both candidates had disqualifying qualities.  But you still have to pick one or do the Gary Johnson thing.  If you pick one it still doesn't mean you tolerate/condone that disqualifying quality.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I know many people that thought both candidates had disqualifying qualities.  But you still have to pick one or do the Gary Johnson thing.  If you pick one it still doesn't mean you tolerate/condone that disqualifying quality.
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Or that you believe those disqualifying qualities to be accurate.

 
TobiasFunke said:
It's a question of tolerating something vs advocating for it. For example I supported Hillary Clinton for president.  That means I tolerated/condoned/whatever her lack of transparency and her hawkish foreign policy.  That doesn't mean I liked them, only that I didn't consider them disqualifying. The same dynamic is presumably at work with many Trump supporters, except obviously tolerating bigotry and misogyny isn't quite the same as tolerating lack of transparency. And I know the hat has taken on a meaning of its own, but in the interest of fairness  I kind of default to that perspective for hat wearers too.
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Ok. So it’s a difference in “degree but not kind” (tolerating vs advocating for).

I still always go back to that internal cost-benefit analysis we all do when deciding the rightness or wrongness of a position. All this really tells me is that those people prioritize the material and/or the political over human dignity. I guess that’s somehow different from being explicitly racist, bigoted, misogynistic but I’m not sure there’s any real functional difference. But I understand it’s important to maintain intellectual honesty and fairness in the face of our current altered reality. Nonetheless, when I personally see MAGA gear I will always make a number of assumptions about the wearer and I suspect I would be accurate with a large percentage of those assumptions. If anything else, the gear serves a useful purpose, akin to a sign that says “Stay out, toxic material”.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I am very confident you couldn't find dozens of quotes and posts from my past that could be interpreted as racist.  Sure, I did dumb ####- lying, stealing, etc in my youth, but that is not what we are talking about. (Although Trump does have dozens of accusations of that stuff too). 
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Does your past define you?

 
Stone on CNN/Cuomo right now. Is this live?

Edit: It says “live”. I guess that should be a hint.

Edit again: wrong thread. I’m a moron

 
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https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/24/lowry-covington-maga-hats-224215

"For much of progressive America, the moment you pull on a red MAGA hat, you’re suiting up for Team Racist. You’re marking yourself out as a bigot and a goon. Your individuality doesn’t matter anymore, only the cap."....

..."If the kids had been wearing red Washington Nationals caps, the imbroglio might not have gotten any attention at all. Even if it had, many of those progressives who immediately took a critical view of the students might have been more inclined to view them as immature teenagers, rather than soldiers of hate."

 
Don't Noonan said:
Not saying you believe this but choosing to believe a wall is to keep out "brown" people as people have so racistly posted in this forum instead of protecting our country from law breaking individuals and/or illegal drug trafficking is ignorant.  I support the wall for this reason as a resident of Arizona with kids ages 12 and 15 I hope to squash the ease of access to illegal drugs.
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Which area of Arizona? I can tell you where the majority of the drugs in your area are coming from. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
It shapes who I am.  Also, it depends how long ago we are talking and if I have come to terms/apologized/changed my ways.   You still haven't really answered the question. 
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this is also a true statement

it all depends on who's doing to the looking KarmaPolice

2 people can look at my last 30 years and both draw different conclusions ......... which is why I suppose Trump comes across one way to some people and another way to others huh ?

 
Stealthycat said:
this is also a true statement

it all depends on who's doing to the looking KarmaPolice

2 people can look at my last 30 years and both draw different conclusions ......... which is why I suppose Trump comes across one way to some people and another way to others huh ?
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Surprise, we dont agree. 

I am saying I am confident 2 people could look at my past and neither come to the conclusion I'm racist or lean that way.  

Also, we aren't exactly talking about 30 years ago when we are talking about Trump's posts and things he's said. 

I don't understand peoples willingness to still defend him on this stuff.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I am saying I am confident 2 people could look at my past and neither come to the conclusion I'm racist or lean that way.   

Also, we aren't exactly talking about 30 years ago when we are talking about Trump's posts and things he's said.  

I don't understand peoples willingness to still defend him on this stuff.  
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I call it like I see it.

Trump has said everything right on racism and white supremacist groups - but nobody wants to see those quotes, instead keying in on quotes he's said and reading in between the lines on what he might or might not have meant.

LBJ was a racist - in how he acted and what he said. Trump ? He might be, I've just not seen anything that tells me that other than liberal media using snippets and out of context quotes and things from his companies 30 years ago.

Sorry - I just don't.

 
Stealthycat said:
I call it like I see it.

Trump has said everything right on racism and white supremacist groups - but nobody wants to see those quotes, instead keying in on quotes he's said and reading in between the lines on what he might or might not have meant.

LBJ was a racist - in how he acted and what he said. Trump ? He might be, I've just not seen anything that tells me that other than liberal media using snippets and out of context quotes and things from his companies 30 years ago.

Sorry - I just don't.
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You’re a strange dude. 

 
Reason blog that I found kind of funny. Not because of the content, but because of the links that no longer work or link to apologies. Some people are at least trying to clean up their mess. 

 
Stealthycat said:
I call it like I see it.

Trump has said everything right on racism and white supremacist groups - but nobody wants to see those quotes, instead keying in on quotes he's said and reading in between the lines on what he might or might not have meant.

LBJ was a racist - in how he acted and what he said. Trump ? He might be, I've just not seen anything that tells me that other than liberal media using snippets and out of context quotes and things from his companies 30 years ago.

Sorry - I just don't.
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Which is meaningless with his racist statements and actions going back to the 70s, which are well documented and I provided a link to that some pages back. As they say, words are cheap, and denouncing racism and white supremacists doesn't carry much weight when you call Mexican immigrants criminals, drug dealers, and rapists, while also referring to some black nations as ####hole countries.

LBJ is considered almost single handedly responsible for getting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, so he couldn't have been too racist (comments that he made privately notwithstanding).

 
squistion said:
Which is meaningless with his racist statements and actions going back to the 70s, which are well documented and I provided a link to that some pages back. As they say, words are cheap, and denouncing racism and white supremacists doesn't carry much weight when you call Mexican immigrants criminals, drug dealers, and rapists, while also referring to some black nations as ####hole countries.

LBJ is considered almost single handedly responsible for getting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, so he couldn't have been too racist (comments that he made privately notwithstanding).
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Well those countries are awful.  Has nothing to do with the fact that they are predominately black has everything to do with how they are run.   

 
boots11234 said:
Well those countries are awful.  Has nothing to do with the fact that they are predominately black has everything to do with how they are run.   
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It adds to the whole body of work.  Independently, maybe it gets a pass.  When you start adding it to the other dozens of examples... 

 
squistion said:
Mexican immigrants criminals, drug dealers, and rapists, while also referring to some black nations as ####hole countries. 
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Some Mexican's are criminals, drug dealers and rapists, fact.

here is what was said

When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
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Isn't there truth in that?  Are you going to try and sell that the literally hundreds of thousands of people coming cross the border are doctors and lawyers, maybe even skilled professionals? Or, are they the lower class people that Mexico could care less about including criminals ?

The Bureau of Prisons is responsible for the custody and care of federal inmates. As of December 2017, BOP has custody of 38,132 known or suspected aliens. This represents approximately 21 percent of the total BOP population — meaning that one in five BOP inmates is an alien.

Of the 38,132 known or suspected aliens, approximately 66 percent were unlawfully present in the United States.

Crazy numbers isn't it?

"black" nations? that's racist IMO .......... but regardless, the countries are craphole countries, that's why so many want to come to the USA. It can be said a bit nicer, but its a true statement. African nations (assuming that's what you're talking about) ...if you want to discuss how poor they are, how criminal they are, how bad they rank in humanitarian issues and womens right and LGBT rights etc go for it. Tell me what you conclude

 
Stealthycat said:
Some Mexican's are criminals, drug dealers and rapists, fact.

here is what was said

Isn't there truth in that?  Are you going to try and sell that the literally hundreds of thousands of people coming cross the border are doctors and lawyers, maybe even skilled professionals? Or, are they the lower class people that Mexico could care less about including criminals ?
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He didn't say some, he suggested most of those who are undocumented or almost all, adding the disclaimer And some, I assume, are good people

 
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squistion said:
He didn't say some, he suggested most of those who are undocumented or almost all, adding the disclaimer And some, I assume, are good people
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some are good people - I agree ..... however

Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges

79,049 assault charges

18,685 burglary charges

79,900 drug charges

815 kidnapping charges

44,882 theft charges

50,777 obstructing police charges

4,292 robbery charges

7,156 sexual assault charges

9,938 weapons charges.

 
Stealthycat said:
some are good people - I agree ..... however

Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges

79,049 assault charges

18,685 burglary charges

79,900 drug charges

815 kidnapping charges

44,882 theft charges

50,777 obstructing police charges

4,292 robbery charges

7,156 sexual assault charges

9,938 weapons charges.
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What are those as a % of all Texas local jails?  While those offenses are obviously not good, if they represent a small percentage of the total crime then it seems like the wall resources would be better deployed stopping crimes in general. 

 
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James Daulton said:
What are those as a % of all Texas local jails?
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https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens

you'd have to do some research, that % isn't listed

Its very possible that with a vetting system the criminals coming here illegally would have been weeded out. We don't know - without border security, with 15 million here illegally, who knows what the numbers or percentages are. What we do know is the negative impacts on US citizens through the crimes illegals commit and the drain on US taxpayers.

Nobody is against legal immigration - illegal is the core problem. So when Trump says there are bad people, criminals, etc? He's right - there are. What % nobody knows.

 
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