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Belichick Vs. Brady?


Hov34

Brady or Belichick for 20 years in their prime?  

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Having an argument with a friend.  IF you owned a team 20 years ago and had a chance to either have Belichick as your HC or Brady as your QB for the next 20 years.  Who do you take?

 

Apologies if this has been done before.

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5 hours ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

Survey results are telling.  There are actually people who don't know history who will try to tell you he did a bad job in Cleveland.  Pearls before swine.

 

One winning season in 5 years even a poor or average coach can have similar results.  What is this fox news where you just make  crap up.  5-11 his last  Browns season.  5-11 his first season as Pats coach.  He got lucky with Brady!   Cause he was a below aversge coach prior to Brady.  Don't give me the one season when Brady was out.  Because even a below average coach can have a winning season.   The only thing special about Bill is that he has Brady.  Nothing more.

Edited by bucksoh
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37 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

One winning season in 5 years even a poor or average coach can have similar results.  What is this fox news where you just make  crap up.  5-11 his last  Browns season.  5-11 his first season as Pats coach.  He got lucky with Brady!   Cause he was a below aversge coach prior to Brady.  Don't give me the one season when Brady was out.  Because even a below average coach can have a winning season.   The only thing special about Bill is that he has Brady.  Nothing more.

There was a Joe Bryant thread on this exact subject last month. The year before B.B. coached the Browns, they went 3-13 with a -234 scoring diffential. Within 4 years, the Browns were 11-5, had a +136 scoring differential, made the playoffs, and had the #1 scoring defense.

If it were so easy to turn teams around, how is that the Browns haven’t had a season like that since?

As for the following season, Teataverde got hurt early on and was never really right the rest of the season. The team announced they were moving to Baltimore, and things fell apart from there. 

People forget that B.B. coached in three Super Bowls before he ever came across Tom Brady. He won twice as the DC with the Giants and lost once as an Assistant Head Coach with NE.

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5 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

There was a Joe Bryant thread on this exact subject last month. The year before B.B. coached the Browns, they went 3-13 with a -234 scoring diffential. Within 4 years, the Browns were 11-5, had a +136 scoring differential, made the playoffs, and had the #1 scoring defense.

If it were so easy to turn teams around, how is that the Browns haven’t had a season like that since?

As for the following season, Teataverde got hurt early on and was never really right the rest of the season. The team announced they were moving to Baltimore, and things fell apart from there. 

People forget that B.B. coached in three Super Bowls before he ever came across Tom Brady. He won twice as the DC with the Giants and lost once as an Assistant Head Coach with NE.

It is very easy to turn things around when you have a franchise qb.  Any coach can have one good season without a franchise qb.  Very few coaches are actually good with out a franchise qb.  Bill isn't one of them no matter how much you bring up cleveland.  He was a bad  coach.  Good assistant but bad HC  wlithout Brady.  To say otherwise is a fallacy.  Once Brady gone he will revert back to being a bad HC.

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6 hours ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

Survey results are telling.  There are actually people who don't know history who will try to tell you he did a bad job in Cleveland.  Pearls before swine.

 

He *did* do a bad job there.  But the key is... he learned from his mistakes.  He is the coach he is today because of that experience he went through.  And not everyone can do that.

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16 minutes ago, bucksoh said:

It is very easy to turn things around when you have a franchise qb.  Any coach can have one good season without a franchise qb.  Very few coaches are actually good with out a franchise qb.  Bill isn't one of them no matter how much you bring up cleveland.  He was a bad  coach.  Good assistant but bad HC  wlithout Brady.  To say otherwise is a fallacy.  Once Brady gone he will revert back to being a bad HC.

So in 2008 and 2016 without Brady when NE went 14-6, was that Brady’s doing?

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

So in 2008 and 2016 without Brady when NE went 14-6, was that Brady’s doing?

If you include 2000 and the first two weeks of 2001 without brady, belichick is 19-19. 

Maybe it's not fair to include his first year with the team before he got to pick his own players. Maybe it's not fair to include the year after they went 16-0. 

What we can say is that the pats started 0-2 in 2001 before brady became quarterback and they won a bye week and won the superbowl.  

We can also say that the Patriots have missed the playoffs 3 times (2000, 2002, 2008) under belichick, but only once under brady (2002).

There's no question that belichick is amazing, but the "look at 2008" argument is really incomplete. It's like minimizing peyton manning because he took over a 3 win colts team, led them to 3 wins, then took over a Broncos team that won a playoff berth with tebow the year before he arrived, and lost their first playoff game with manning. 

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2 hours ago, bucksoh said:

It is very easy to turn things around when you have a franchise qb.  Any coach can have one good season without a franchise qb.  Very few coaches are actually good with out a franchise qb.  Bill isn't one of them no matter how much you bring up cleveland.  He was a bad  coach.  Good assistant but bad HC  wlithout Brady.  To say otherwise is a fallacy.  Once Brady gone he will revert back to being a bad HC.

Lol, wow.

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1 hour ago, voiceofunreason said:

Lol, wow.

He was a bad HC in Cleveland, hard to dispute that but that is your opinion.  I don't judge HC when they have an elite qb.  Unless it's Tomlin he's just horrible.  When Brady is done then I will reevaluate him, but based on Cleveland I'm not expecting much.

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45 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Belichick showing again why he is the more valuable of the two.  His D is shutting out the number 2 offense, while Brady is struggling vs the number 19 ranked D. 

Doesn’t even need to be said. I am honestly shocked the number is up to 9 for Brady, even assuming half of those are jokes. 

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2 minutes ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Well he just basically won a Super Bowl without Brady, so....

He could have won that one with just about any QB. Brady dropping like a stone at 18% which is generous. Manning wishes he was the guy lucky enough to ride Belicheck's coattails.

Edited by lod001
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10 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Considering the lack of talent on the NE defense and the offense they were going against, you could argue that this was the greatest defensive performance by a Belichick defense in any Super Bowl.  This surpasses what the '90 Giants did vs the Bills. 

I agree. I think the coaching job in all 3 of their playoffs games was the best coaching job ever in a playoff run. He simply embarrassed the other coaches, who were supposedly some of the best minds in the game and 3 of the top 5 offenses.

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24 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

What if BB retires along with him? What if they ride off into the sunset together, holding hands while riding matching unicorns?

I called that 3 years ago after win #5. They will both leave at the same time.  Now, back to beating up the hapless, 1 franchise QB in the division in 20 years, AFC East  in 2019.

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Agree with BB and also think it is an easy call.  Brady is great and there is no question about that.  GOAT, okay, all that.  Would he have this success in Cleveland? Detroit? We'll never know.

Last night was a good example, imo, of why BB is so great.  Brady was just okay, not great.  That game was won during the two weeks prep and the execution of the defensive game plan.  

The Patriot organization isn't handcuffed with huge salaries and over-valued, aging players with bloated salaries.  They've been able to restructure Brady's contract (much credit to him for doing this too) and replacing other guys who were approaching new contract status with younger players earning less money.  But the team is attractive to free agents because players know they have a great chance of going to the playoffs/SB.  Right now it's a perfect storm.  Won't last forever.  

If Brady was one of those guys who wanted the richest QB contract in the league, I'd wager they wouldn't have been able to win some of their SBs.  And their formula wouldn't be nearly as effective.  But BB is the guy behind the curtain orchestrating this whole team.  He isn't afraid to let a veteran go where other teams tend to reward older players for past performance.  

The GM has something to do with it, of course, but he and BB have been brilliant for a long time in managing this team.  Brady is the captain of the ship on the field but I'd rather have the front office, head coach and culture instead of one great QB.  

 

 

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Belichick, and I don't even really understand an argument for Brady. 

5 hours ago, sn0mm1s said:

All this Brady hate must be schtick. I mean, who would you rather have Phil Jackson for 15 years or Michael Jordan?

This isn't a fair comparison. Individual players are a lot more important o basketball since there are only 10 playing at any given moment as opposed to 22, and all those guys are playing both offense and defense. Jordan impacts games a lot more than Brady(or any QB) does.

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11 minutes ago, Jayrok said:

The GM has something to do with it, of course, but he and BB have been brilliant for a long time in managing this team.  Brady is the captain of the ship on the field but I'd rather have the front office, head coach and culture instead of one great QB.  

I can’t tell if this is schtick or not, but NE doesn’t have a GM. It’s Belichick in that role. 

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19 hours ago, bucksoh said:

One winning season in 5 years even a poor or average coach can have similar results.  What is this fox news where you just make  crap up.  5-11 his last  Browns season.  5-11 his first season as Pats coach.  He got lucky with Brady!   Cause he was a below aversge coach prior to Brady.  Don't give me the one season when Brady was out.  Because even a below average coach can have a winning season.   The only thing special about Bill is that he has Brady.  Nothing more.

Wow

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6 hours ago, sn0mm1s said:

All this Brady hate must be schtick. I mean, who would you rather have Phil Jackson for 15 years or Michael Jordan?

Basketball and football are worlds apart as far as the impact coaching has and the impact one player can make. I can't believe that analogy/argument was even made.

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2001 superbowl mvp

2002 led nfl in passing touchdowns

2003 superbowl mvp

2004 superbowl title

2005 led nfl in passing yards

2007 nfl mvp, set nfl record for passing touchdowns

2009 comeback player of the year

2010 nfl mvp

2014 superbowl mvp

2016 superbowl mvp

2017 nfl mvp

2018 superbowl title 

He's 30-10 in the post season. The next two guys on the list - montana and manning - are a combined 30-20. Montana played until he was 38 and manning until he was 39. 

I understand that belichick shares those team accomplishments, and I think most people agree that the 2001 superbowl was more belichick than brady, but it was brady who delivered repeatedly in the 28-3 comeback.

And it was brady who orchestrated two touchdown drives in the last 3 minutes of the afc championship game against the chiefs.  Brady without Belichick might not have won the superbowl last night. Belichick without brady would not have gotten there. 

I'm immeasurably spoiled to have enjoyed rooting for both but if i could only have had one there's simply never been a quarterback with the combination of gaudy passing numbers, clutch playoff performances and selfless play.

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Basketball and football are worlds apart as far as the impact coaching has and the impact one player can make. I can't believe that analogy/argument was even made.

A QB has just as much impact on a team as a great BB player.

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4 minutes ago, sn0mm1s said:

A QB has just as much impact on a team as a great BB player.

Lets put it this way- you take Jordan in his prime and have him play with 4 college players, its still a game. You take Brady in his prime and have him play with 21 college kids, they get blown out of the building.

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10 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

2001 superbowl mvp

2002 led nfl in passing touchdowns

2003 superbowl mvp

2004 superbowl title

2005 led nfl in passing yards

2007 nfl mvp, set nfl record for passing touchdowns

2009 comeback player of the year

2010 nfl mvp

2014 superbowl mvp

2016 superbowl mvp

2017 nfl mvp

2018 superbowl title 

He's 30-10 in the post season. The next two guys on the list - montana and manning - are a combined 30-20. Montana played until he was 38 and manning until he was 39. 

I understand that belichick shares those team accomplishments, and I think most people agree that the 2001 superbowl was more belichick than brady, but it was brady who delivered repeatedly in the 28-3 comeback.

And it was brady who orchestrated two touchdown drives in the last 3 minutes of the afc championship game against the chiefs.  Brady without Belichick might not have won the superbowl last night. Belichick without brady would not have gotten there. 

I'm immeasurably spoiled to have enjoyed rooting for both but if i could only have had one there's simply never been a quarterback with the combination of gaudy passing numbers, clutch playoff performances and selfless play.

2000-2009: 97-30 (.764) regular season record, 14-4 post season record (.778), 93.3 passer rating, 3-1 in SB, 4-1 in AFCCG
2010-2018: 110-30 (.786) regular season, 16-6 post season (.727), 101.0 passer rating, 3-2 in SB, 5-3 in AFCCG

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