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Notre Dame in Paris is on fire


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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

I didn’t bring up the Flint situation but it fits. How and why do people choose to focus their money and sympathies? Why did the government and billionaires jump up to donate to Paris? It’s a philosophical question because there are distasters happening all the time. I’m not making it about race, just curious.

Wouldn’t Notre Dame be owned and operated by the Catholic Church which is worth about $20 billion? Surely they need help with this and I’m not saying it’s not worthy. I was raised Catholic and have a history degree so this was devastating to me but it probably doesn’t really compare to disease or famine or tearing down the rain forest that happens daily.

Also why is it that if I feel bad that the huge floods in poverty stricken South Dakota and want to talk about it that makes it fake outrage? I really hate that term.

In France, all churches have been classified as public property owned by the government per a 1905 law concerning the separation of church and state.  The Catholic church operates Notre Dame but they don't technically own it.

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

I didn’t bring up the Flint situation but it fits. How and why do people choose to focus their money and sympathies? Why did the government and billionaires jump up to donate to Paris? It’s a philosophical question because there are distasters happening all the time. I’m not making it about race, just curious.

Wouldn’t Notre Dame be owned and operated by the Catholic Church which is worth about $20 billion? Surely they need help with this and I’m not saying it’s not worthy. I was raised Catholic and have a history degree so this was devastating to me but it probably doesn’t really compare to disease or famine or tearing down the rain forest that happens daily.

Also why is it that if I feel bad that the huge floods in poverty stricken South Dakota and want to talk about it that makes it fake outrage? I really hate that term.

Why are people rushing to want to help rebuild a literal Wonder of the  World, a place of a admired beauty, tremendous historical and cultural importance, and one where folks come from around the world to want to see? Versus an ‘unseen’ plumbing system of a rundown, declining rust belt town?

You’re a thoughtful fellow but I think you might be overthinking things here.

 

Edited by Hugh Jass
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20 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

Why are people rushing to want to help rebuild a literal Wonder of the  World, a place of a admired beauty, tremendous historical and cultural importance, and one where folks come from around the world to want to see? Versus an ‘unseen’ plumbing system of a rundown, declining rust belt town?

You’re a thoughtful fellow but I think you might be overthinking things here.

 

I never brought up Flint. I brought up historic churches in our country and the rainforest. As for Flint, it’s still a city with a 100,000 peoole and I think writing it off and the people in it as declining rust belters is the exact issue. I think everyone may be underthinking these things. I get why people love ND but there’s a lot of disasters in the world and many of them have a greater impact on the lives of humans. I think it’s an interesting moment of reflection. My guess is Jesus would prefer we help the people suffering from the terrible floods in South Dakota before we rebuilt a church.

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52 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I never brought up Flint. I brought up historic churches in our country and the rainforest. As for Flint, it’s still a city with a 100,000 peoole and I think writing it off and the people in it as declining rust belters is the exact issue. I think everyone may be underthinking these things. I get why people love ND but there’s a lot of disasters in the world and many of them have a greater impact on the lives of humans. I think it’s an interesting moment of reflection. My guess is Jesus would prefer we help the people suffering from the terrible floods in South Dakota before we rebuilt a church.

But why does this have to be a referendum on the Cathedral? Yours seems to be the classic argument of “how can I enjoy my daily life when there’s starving kids in Asia?” How can cities spend money on ‘x’ when there’s all this tragedy in ‘y’? How can we have a space program when we can’t shelter all our homeless? How can you, ilov80s, drive that 2018 model car when you could buy a point A to B clunker and donate the difference to the rainforest?

Edited by Hugh Jass
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20 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

But why does this have to be a referendum on the Cathedral? Yours seems to be the classic argument of “how can I enjoy my daily life when there’s starving kids in Asia?” How can cities spend money on ‘x’ when there’s all this tragedy in ‘y’? How can we have a space program when we can’t shelter all our homeless? How can you, ilov80s, drive that 2018 model car when you could buy a point A to B clunker and donate the difference to the rainforest?

I agree.  Children are still starving in Biafra or wherever.  I don't get the either/or thing at all.  

Besides, donations to the churches in Louisiana that got burned recently went up right after Notre Dame donations started.

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I've seen people on my daughter's social media circles ask why Pence (and Trump) tweets about how "heartbreaking" it is to see Notre Dame, a "house of God in flames", but nothing about the black churches in St. Landry Parish. And white people bragging about their vacays to Paris. And a Catholic Church that caused pain for millions of people. Many people view the ND fire as causing privileged pain.

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2 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

I've seen people on my daughter's social media circles ask why Pence (and Trump) tweets about how "heartbreaking" it is to see Notre Dame, a "house of God in flames", but nothing about the black churches in St. Landry Parish. And white people bragging about their vacays to Paris. And a Catholic Church that caused pain for millions of people. Many people view the ND fire as causing privileged pain.

Yuck. I know this wasn’t your opinion, but I’ll never understand/agree with that way of thinking. The churches in La. getting burnt sucked and deserve our human grieving and action. AND the Cathedral accident sucks and deserves our human grieving over what’s lost and action. This weird scorekeeping is gross and rather demented.

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42 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

But why does this have to be a referendum on the Cathedral? Yours seems to be the classic argument of “how can I enjoy my daily life when there’s starving kids in Asia?” How can cities spend money on ‘x’ when there’s all this tragedy in ‘y’? How can we have a space program when we can’t shelter all our homeless? How can you, ilov80s, drive that 2018 model car when you could buy a point A to B clunker and donate the difference to the rainforest?

I don't think I criticized anyone for how they were impacted by these events or how they spend their money. I admitted I was deeply moved by this. My question was of human psychology and wondering if we could handle these kind of large scale tragedies better. I don't think I said anything negative about the cathedral or the efforts to rebuild it. I posed a question about how Jesus might view the allocation of money but it's not demean Notre Dame but to turn the gears of how human beings allocate charity and our sympathies in the future. I know for a fact I posted in this thread earlier an E.M. Forester quote that suggests buildings might be more important that people. Do I believe it? I might and if I do, I am not sure that is a good thing. 

20 minutes ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I agree.  Children are still starving in Biafra or wherever.  I don't get the either/or thing at all.  

Besides, donations to the churches in Louisiana that got burned recently went up right after Notre Dame donations started.

I am not posing anything as either/or. I was just commenting on how it is interesting what people react to and what people don't. I think it is an interesting puzzle as to what grabs "us" and what doesn't. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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On 4/17/2019 at 11:57 AM, Statorama said:

A billion dollars in donations (and rising) along with any fire insurance payout they would get.  

Was the cathedral insured? One headline I saw said there was no coverage on the structure.

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1 minute ago, EYLive said:

Was the cathedral insured? One headline I saw said there was no coverage on the structure.

Apparently, the 2 contractors doing the restoration have liability insurance. The building itself is self-insured by the government.

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2 minutes ago, EYLive said:

Apparently, the 2 contractors doing the restoration have liability insurance. The building itself is self-insured by the government.

That is good. I wonder how much that insurance covers?  Of course no insurance can replace the history but at the same time the building has had a lot of work done in more modern times. 

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Completion of the original construction of the cathedral coincided with the Black Plague and the Hundred Years Wars.  This has little to do with the current discussion other than there have always been questions about prioritization between support of the church and more worldly concerns.

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11 hours ago, EYLive said:

Apparently, the 2 contractors doing the restoration have liability insurance. The building itself is self-insured by the government.

Unless it is proved that the contractors' negligence caused the fire, their insurance won't cover anything. If they do pay, there is a limit to that insurance.

Sounds like the gov't will be on the hook.

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2 hours ago, Gianni Verscotchie said:

Unless it is proved that the contractors' negligence caused the fire, their insurance won't cover anything.

I'm sure insurance companies are great at wiggling out of stuff. But say it's totally established that some action of a contractor caused the fire -- what kind of fire-causing action like that would NOT be negligence?

For instance, say there was a frayed extension cord or something. Would be pretty easy to argue that the cord should've been inspected, no? 

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15 hours ago, Hugh Jass said:

Why are people rushing to want to help rebuild a literal Wonder of the  World, a place of a admired beauty, tremendous historical and cultural importance, and one where folks come from around the world to want to see? Versus an ‘unseen’ plumbing system of a rundown, declining rust belt town?

You’re a thoughtful fellow but I think you might be overthinking things here.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I'm sure insurance companies are great at wiggling out of stuff. But say it's totally established that some action of a contractor caused the fire -- what kind of fire-causing action like that would NOT be negligence?

For instance, say there was a frayed extension cord or something. Would be pretty easy to argue that the cord should've been inspected, no? 

That is a pretty clear example. I was thinking more along the lines of a candle being knocked over after everyone left for the day.

Maybe a contractor left a board precariously leaning up against a wall. It fell knocking over a candle.

Or maybe the contractor left the board reasonably secured, leaning in a corner and then a church custodian moved the board at some point, putting it in a precarious position.

Same outcome - board knocked over candle - but two different causes. A thorough investigation is necessary and neither guy wants to confess and being known as the guy that burned down Notre Dame.

All of this is totally hypothetical of course.

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