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TRUMP TO INFINITY AND BEYOND HQ - The Great and Positive Place (4 Viewers)
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I appreciate the back and forth and have been thinking about this post for a couple days. The lean is not what I pushing back against. I honestly don't care if an outlet leans one way or the other. IMO the piece that is being most lost in the shuffle is how good are they at reporting facts and info. They can lean right or left or not at all, but what is a big issue with discourse is that we are at a point where we can't seem to agree on what good reporting and what isn't.
I know I keep referring to it, but it's what I am most familiar with, but it's THIS chart, and I also have looked a bit at the site that JAA suggested, and they aren't far off from each other. (yes, I did start poking around in the site that you suggested, but I am not familiar enough with it to comment too much on it). So, I think the biggest disconnect in this back and forth and "source policing" is the sources that aren't even in that reliable news zone. There is also a disconnect between people flipping on CNN or Fox TV and them using the web versions of those outlets. We can discuss if people have a huge beef with how that chart collects data and grades out their sites, but if we mostly agree they aren't way far out with their assessments, neither TV version should be trusted for news (I am sure due to the large % of opinion shows on both channels and lack of fact checking push back), but for the web versions CNN dipped back up into the green zone of fact reporting, but Fox is still in the mixed reliability and dipping into that orange zone. Again, if we like that chart, even the CNN vs. Fox links carry a different weight.
This is where I am coming from, and I have said multiple times that we would be better off if we tried to stay in that green zone. There are right leaning sources in that zone, but where main problem becomes is that the main sites that are being used and sourced around here are in that orange zone, and that's what should be fixed. If that chart is to be trusted (and it's been brought up several times, and I have yet to see a big push back as to why it's not a decent source to go by), I have yet to see anybody that that using an equivalent source of info like Fox TV around here. Maybe I missed the references to Daily Kos and Occupy Democrats though. If so, they can't have near the viewership of Fox News, and that is a huge problem.
JAA
Footballguy
The chart you provided is not agreed upon by conservatives. For conservatives, this is the chart they believe (someone correct me if Im wrong): https://www.niemanlab.org/2018/06/democrats-see-most-news-outlets-as-unbiased-republicans-think-theyre-almost-all-biased/
Specific chart (on right): https://www.niemanlab.org/images/Screen-Shot-2018-06-22-at-7.16.02-AM.png
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I could see that, but we need to be able to figure out if it's just what we believe and what is accurate.
I don't remember there being huge differences in our 2 preferred sources/charts, but I could be wrong, and both are fairly open with how they got their results and what their methods are. I like how the site you posted also gives examples of what got flaaged and the type of language sources are using. Pretty informative on that front.
I am up for a discussion if there are big errors in their methods or why something they list in their green or fact reporting zone shouldn't be in there.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Roy L Fewks
Footballguy
I just wanted to say: I was a passionate Trump devotee for most of his term. He could do no wrong as far as I was concerned. Even when he was wrong, it was for the right reasons, and I still feel like the media unfairly distorted a lot of the things that he said.
But my faith began to waver back in March, and it never came back. I still could not bring myself to vote for Biden, but I gotta admit that the feeling that I am experiencing right now is one of relief.
It's over.
But my faith began to waver back in March, and it never came back. I still could not bring myself to vote for Biden, but I gotta admit that the feeling that I am experiencing right now is one of relief.
It's over.
timschochet
Footballguy
Do you really believe that any of these claims will be enough to change the results of the election?
Max Power
Footballguy
You never know, but they are worth looking into for the sake of election integrity.
It's a pretty damning claim that should be looked into and put to bed one way or the other.
I'm in favor of a good audit of the voting system.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Is it enough to provide cover for state state legislature to decide they can’t certify a winner and decide to assign their electoral votes? This is the only play at this point and one I think they are trying. It’s easy for some republicans to say the right things yesterday/today, and after a couple days decide this might work and get on the bandwagon like Jim Jordan.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
I’m comfortable saying this strategy will not work. Looks like every suit filed so far is getting summarily dismissed by state-level judges.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I thought I saw something about PA law doesn't allow the state legislature to choose electors, they have to be assigned as voted, even after adjustments due to correction/litigation.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
I don't think the extent of the fraud has been revealed yet. Unknown at this point.
pantherclub
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Sigh, I'll bite.
What kind of fraud do you think happened?
And, why commit fraud and actually lose the chance for the Senate and lose seats in the House?
Doug B
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
That's pretty much game set match. Don't think they'll be able to invalidate enough votes to change the outcome.
timschochet
Footballguy
I didn’t. I believed, and continue to believe, that Donald Trump committed impeachable acts for which he should have been removed from office. But had that happened, Mike Pence would have become President, so the election would not have been overturned.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
This is the one I wonder about. Literally no one has been able to explain this, and to date, I haven't seen anyone claiming fraud (or "smoke") even acknowledge the question.
dkp993
Footballguy
Max- I asked this a few days ago in another thread and no one answered. I’d appreciate your thoughts on it. Thanks.
Why is it automatically assumed that if voter fraud is happening it’s exclusively or majority on the Biden side? Serious Trump supporters are as passionate in their love and support for Trump as I’ve seen in my lifetime, why is it unthinkable they wouldn’t cheat to keep him in office?
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s one of the central problems with every large conspiracy theory. When you start closely examining the results of any supposed plan, you usually discover that they’re far too inconsistent to make sense.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Because that’s what delusional Trump says and many of his supporters follow his lead. By Trumps “rationale”, Florida was rigged in favor of Trump. But you have some followers who will hang onto every word of his.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
But whatever- he can waste his time And money with the litigations and will end up looking like a bigger fool in the end. There will still be a small minority who will think it was rigged even after the investigation and that’s fine. They can live their lives in misery if they want.
Doug B
Footballguy
The biggest issue is that for such a conspiracy of fraud against Candidate X to succeed, you need A LOT of Candidate X partisans to be involved (chiefly, as see-no-evil ballot observers). Even in a super-close swing state, a handful of bad actors ain't gettin' it done.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
In some cases in states with Republican governors, state assemblies, and secretary of state. Not plausible.
Max Power
Footballguy
The Republicans very well could have. I'm open to hearing those claims.
I think the 3am massive dump of Biden votes was suspect and worth looking in to.
dkp993
Footballguy
I’m all about looking into anything as well. But help me understand why that specifically was suspect. Was it the time? Was it the amount of positive Biden votes? If that dump had happened at 7 PM would there still been a concern? Are you as concerned about other major blocks of votes for Trump in other states?
I guess what I’m getting at is I just don’t understand, other than fear and partisanship, this voter fraud thing that comes up year after year. There’s never been, in recent times, proven widespread voter fraud from either side. Ever. Countless committees partisan and bipartisan alike have looked deep into it and never found anything of consequence.
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If you're going to post extreme things like this, back them up with a lot more detail in why you think that.
timschochet
Footballguy
Ah...NM
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Max Power
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/AndySwan/status/1323990699017228288?s=20
You don't think this 4am spike is an anomaly worth looking into?
I'm not going to argue with people who think Biden won, but election integrity needs to be maintained. The whistleblowers should be heard and if it all amounts to minimal fraud, so be it. We can still get better.
Max Power
Footballguy
Sydney Powell made an extreme claim of voter fraud and referenced the system and program used. She said there is evidence and it seems to be an easy claim to confirm or deny. I'll hold out hope it could swing an election, but like I said, if not, it's worth looking into.
HellToupee
Footballguy
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dkp993
Footballguy
My first sentence of the post you responded too “I’m all about looking into anything as well”, so no I have no issue with things being looked into. I’m just not assuming there widespread fraud as it’s never been found before so why would I. I’m taking the innocent until proven guilty position on this one
I 100% agree with your election integrity statement. I was wondering what you thought was fishy, apparently it’s the time. Thanks. I personally don’t think the time is concerning, doesn’t really mean much honestly, but if they want to investigate it to ensure its accuracy? All aboard.
Max Power
Footballguy
It's not as much the time as it was that dump was 96-100% Biden votes depending on the source which is a statistical improbability.
Also 89% of Wisconsin voters voted. Another statistical improbability.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I wasn't following extensively this week. Where are we getting this info and stats that a 98% Biden dump of votes happened? How many votes were in that dump total, and what were they from?
Likewise, Wi and the 90% of voters. What is it usually?
Likewise, Wi and the 90% of voters. What is it usually?
dkp993
Footballguy
Thanks. And worth looking into I agree. Do you agree then we should look at other areas in other states where a huge blocks of votes were pro-Trump? Other “statistical improbabilities”?
Max Power
Footballguy
Of course. I'm all for a national audit. If a large portion of the population can't have faith in our process it's only a matter of time until it falls off the rails.
Max Power
Footballguy
Sneegor's link above has some more on it, but in short...
Statistical Impossibilities in Wisconsin and Michigan:
In both Michigan and Wisconsin, several vote dumps occurred at approximately 4am on Wednesday morning, which showed that Joe Biden received almost 100 percent of the votes. President Trump was leading by hundreds of thousands of votes in both states as America went to sleep, and turnout in the state of Wisconsin seems to be particularly impossible.
The voter turnout in Wisconsin apparently annihilated the historical record of 66.8% by almost 30 percentage points.
Statistical analysts have noted that this 5-point deviation was not only a statistical improbability, but a virtual statistical impossibility.
The odds of this occurring are 0.00000189% or 1 in 52,910,052.
Doug B
Footballguy
Theredelephants.com link Sneegor posted is inaccurate regarding Wisconsin voter turnout:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/05/fact-check-wisconsin-voter-turnout-line-past-elections/6176028002/
Further reading on the topic: Politifact, AP, Wisconsin Public Radio.
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Doug B
Footballguy
This is from pre-dawn Thursday morning when Pennsylvania's current vote count was quite a ways from being known. The quoted law professor's opinion depends upon a specific speculative scenario: That Biden's victory in the state absolutely relies on the post-Election-Day mail-in votes.
This is now known not to be the case -- Biden is far enough ahead now that even if all of the Nov 4-6 arrivals were cast for Trump, Biden would still be ahead. Accordingly, media outlets called Pennsylvania for Biden earlier today.
Doug B
Footballguy
Any large move in favor of one candidate or the other is absolutely looked into on the spot by one party's or the other's ballot observers. A big dump suspiciously heavily in favor of one candidate in a swing state gets challenged immediately within the ballot-count vetting process -- Republican observers don't have to take anyone's word for it. They get to spot-check the big-dump ballots, or go through them individually by hand. None of this requires a court order or anyone from up on high making a call -- such checking of results is well within their rights as observers and is a legitimate part of the vote-counting process.
Something instructive happened in Michigan, when a reported count was erroneously inflated by a factor of 10. The error was noticed quickly by observers from both parties, and the state rectified the figure in short order.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
This is the stuff that bothers me. Trump supporters have been repeating these same things for days, even though they've repeatedly been proven untrue.
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