squistion
Footballguy
Yes, but apparently he wants the signature on every ballot checked again during the recount.
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TRUMP TO INFINITY AND BEYOND HQ - The Great and Positive Place (8 Viewers)
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General Malaise
Footballguy
Mile High
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
The fact that there was nothing to Barr’s instruction beyond politics, and that it’s led to nothing.
Mile High
Footballguy
Why is that suspicious? After your id is confirmed your ballot is secret. Same as voting in person. Your id is confirmed you vote in secret.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
His role is over period.
Max I like you, you seem like a decent guy and I very much appreciate your service to our country. It’s time to give up this fight. You’re being used in a shameless attempt to make money in order to pay off campaign debts. Nothing is going to come of this. Give it up and if you still want Trump to be President, fight for his return in 2024.
Max Power
Footballguy
I asked how so and you responded with a statement that you have no way of knowing. It's a weak dishonesty intellectual reply.
You're a good dude, but you're clearly letting my opinion bother you. This is why people have a problem with the left. A difference of opinion upsets you.
I haven't contributed to Trump post election, so I'm not being used.
I'm an American first and foremost. Once Biden is certified, I'll come around. I just see enough smoke and I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the ones shouting fire right now.
timschochet
Footballguy
Political opinions that differ from mine don’t bother me and never have. This does only because it’s doing damage in real time. Not your opinion by itself but all the millions of people who share it. You’re giving President Trump tacit permission to refuse to permit the GSA to work with President Elect Biden, which is going to hurt a lot of people.
And you are being used. Just because you haven’t personally contributed doesn’t mean others aren’t and they are fortified by millions like you who are energizing Trump to keep going.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
You keep saying this. And many keep asking what the smoke is?
I'm not talking about twitter feeds or youtube videos. What is the actual smoke you are seeing?
You realize every single allegation so far has either been completely debunked or tossed out in court with the exception of separated ballots in PA which was already done, right?
And, in addition to the question of what the actual smoke is, at what point do you stop giving the benefit of the doubt? You realize Trump's court cases (with allegations that keep changing once one is challenged and thrown out) is now sitting at 1 for 23, right?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Max has actually answered this one. To his credit, best I can tell, he is the only one on these forums to do so. I'm paraphrasing, but his answer is, essentially, that he trusts Sidney Powell and the allegations re: Dominion from that source, are, for the time being, good enough to be worth pursuing.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Who is this Sidney Powell? I see she is a filmmaker with some history in the DOJ but what makes her this leading, credible source?
gianmarco
Footballguy
My apologies if I missed it or didn't remember.
Fact checking the Dominion claim
From that article:
Dominion calls the claim from Trump that its machines deleted 941,000 votes for him in Pennsylvania alone "impossible."
That's because Dominion only serves 14 counties in the state, which produced a total of 1.3 million votes — 52%, or 676,000, of which went to Trump. That only leaves 624,000 other votes, fewer than what Trump claims were switched.
James Daulton
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Recounts rarely change election results, only a few hundred votes at most will be changed, not enough to overcome Biden's winning margin.
dkp993
Footballguy
So Ok, someone has a theory. Why listen to her but ignore 1000’s of others? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/13/election-2020-trump-voter-fraud-claims-slammed-ex-officials/6276446002/)
To use @Max Power’s smoke analogy. We have 1 person screaming fire in a crowded movie theater, and we have 1000 firefighters in the same movie theater sitting right next to her saying there is no fire what so ever. You’re choosing to believe that 1 person? Interesting.
squistion
Footballguy
There is not a shred of proof that happened. If you are hanging your hat on finding fraud in the Dominion software, you will be very disappointed IMO.
James Daulton
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
This is where the GA recount will either support the dominion narrative or completely destroy it.
moleculo
Footballguy
let's be honest about the Dominion bit: This comes from a guy who claims he invented email and was possibly married to Fran Drescher. He believes that votes were manipulated because the proportions of people voting for Trump:Biden aren't the same as straight-Republican: Straight-Democrat. He presents a terrible analysis that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny from any academic board but because he has a PhD at MIT, he lends it the air of legitimacy. He published his findings on youtube, not any peer-reviewed paper or newsworth article (from what I can find).
Specifically, he includes no baseline in his study, he does some tricks with how the data is presented to magnify the alleged issues, and he does some really dishonest data manipulation with one county in particular (i.e. X-axis on 3 of 4 counties go to 100%, the 4th goes up to 35% but he presents them the same). Further, if you introduce the concept of a "never-Trumper", his entire thesis falls apart.
Specifically, he includes no baseline in his study, he does some tricks with how the data is presented to magnify the alleged issues, and he does some really dishonest data manipulation with one county in particular (i.e. X-axis on 3 of 4 counties go to 100%, the 4th goes up to 35% but he presents them the same). Further, if you introduce the concept of a "never-Trumper", his entire thesis falls apart.
Uwe Blab
Footballguy
That's the thing though, its almost certainly not going to as here is a (small) update on the hand count: Link
And Trump is already whining and complaining about the hand count. What's the end game here? When you and FootballJones and Max Power say this all needs to be investigated at what point will you say "Ok, that's enough...Biden got fairly elected"? Because Trump and his acolytes most certainly will not. Ever. Will you? Tell me your line where you'll be satisfied. I want to believe in you.
ETA: And to be clear, at the end of the day you are just 3 random Trump supporters on the innernets so it doesn't really matter (and I honest to betsy don't mean that in a bad way). But, you guys are a small sample and I'm just curious. Because I think for the vast majority of Trump supporters that line will never matter. Its always easier to believe that one got cheated out of something than deal with a true loss.
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mrip541
Footballguy
They couldn't convince enough people to hate Joe the way they got people to hate Hillary so the new strategy is to undermine his legitimacy. They never need to show proof. They'll claim the deep state somehow prevented the evidence from coming out and that will be good enough. Trump will be on Fox News every week hypnotizing people with baseless claims and in 2024 he/whoever the candidate is will campaign against the fake senile president who stole America from the silent majority.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Dominion is the highest selling brand of voting machines and used in at least 24 states. They were not used only in states where Trump lost and has claimed fraud. They were also used in 2018 and 2016.
I think it is important to restate that the members of Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council (GCC) and Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) said “The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history" and "There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."
This statement was not issued by the "left wing mob" or "lamestream media". They are fellow American citizens of all political backgrounds whose job it is to oversee and protect the election. Heck the CISA was formed by the Trump administration! Why are so many people challenging their integrity in favor of wild conspiracy theories spread on social media? It is disappointing and scary considering we know our enemies are actively behind much of the disinformation. What makes it worse is that our President embraces and promotes this stuff.
If we Americans can have our faith in the USA election process shaken so easily then democracy in this country is doomed.
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GordonGekko
Footballguy
“Lying is done with words, and also with silence.”
― Adrienne Rich, Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying
Your line is reasoning is built around silencing others for dissent through public shaming.
It's not a crime to not think and vote and hold views that are different from you. There's a process, let the process play out. Max Power's perspective will either be validated or not over time. Backdoor shaming people for holding their own value system apart from yours is zero integrity.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am fine with that but let's be clear that recounts and certifying voting results is part of the process. Having a president tell his supporters the election was stolen is quite another thing.
kwille
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Whoa slow your horses there. No shaming. I’ve been trying to understand why seemingly smart people like Max believe what they do in the face of overwhelming evidence. Chill out on the condemnations. Time and time again I’ve expressed my appreciation for people like Max and the others here who express their differing opinions, that’s why am here. To try to understand. Asking for someone to explain their differing opinion is not shaming them. Trying to understand why someone thinks the way they do is not shaming them.
My line of reasoning here is very simple, thousands and thousands of experts in the field say there’s nothing here. Very very few say there’s something. The evidence is overwhelming that there is nothing of significance. Overwhelming.
The logic falls apart with the let’s just look into it and see position, imo. It’s not coincidental that not one state Trump won is being asked to be looked into. And the mud slinging’s coming from one side regarding cheating, going against complete human nature in claiming that only one side would cheat. This isn’t about fairness, or election integrity, it’s about winning (or more specifically not being able to lose, which is massively ironic after what the right has been saying about how the left handled 2016’s election). The hypocrisy of it being framed under the first two items above is laughable at best and pure partisan politics at its worst. If Trump and his supporters cared one single iota about fairness or election integrity there would be wide ranged investigations across all states won or lost. But no, his 70mil votes are pure as the driven snow but Biden’s 75mil are pure cheating.
For the record I’ve never once said stop the process. Let it play out, but that doesn’t mean we can’t call it what it is.
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moleculo
Footballguy
You are all for letting the process play out. I got that and appreciate it. Are you as insistent that the process of ensuring a smooth transition between the Trump administration and the Biden administration play out as well? Because that process is being prevented.
I'm assuming you are pointing the same "SHAME" finger at the Trump administration?
timschochet
Footballguy
This made me think of Bob Dylan; it’s how he answers questions.
Interviewer: What did you think of Jimi Hendrix’s version of “All Along the Watchtower”?
Dylan: What did you think of MY version of it?
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Two things:
1) Tim's statement had some opinion (that there was nothing to Barr's instruction beyond politics) but the core thing he was pointing out was that for all of the deep investigation that Barr said he was going to do -- in the face of 16 AGs writing to protest it given the lack of any evidence whatsoever -- that Barr’s investigation has led to nothing.
2) I don't think it's fair to label that as a "dishonest intellectualism," whatever that means to you (I am not sure I understand what you mean by this). I do think you have a point that you didn't "ignore" anything as much as you side-stepped and didn't address Tim's statement that while you used Barr's investigation as a clear sign there must be malfeasance afoot, you also don't believe the corollary -- that when no clear evidence of momentum of that investigation ensues, it's a clear sign that there might not be anything to those allegations. Instead, it's on to the next claim.
The only point I am trying to make by pointing this out is simply this:
We have long past reached the point where it seems ongoing accusations continue unabated, but without clear evidence or resulting proof. In fact, everything that US election security officials, the Dept. of Homeland Security, and so forth have found was that this seemed to have been the most secure and uncompromised election to date.
At some point, acceptance of results has to happen -- I mean, what's the alternative?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
I want a full investigation of dominion, I don’t want an illegitimate president.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
I didn't take Tim's replay as opinion. I asked a question and received an "it's over. Period". That is a statement.
I also don't put much stock in the whole democrat signature stuff. It's a played out angle to me. 2,000 lawyer's signed a form that Bill Barr was acting in a partisan fashion. It was all just show. 50 former intelligence agents signed a form saying the Hunter Biden Laptop was Russian disinformation (even though it isn't). It's what they do when they disagree with something and not proof of anything.
Has Barr's investigation concluded? I haven't seen an update on it. It's still only a week old, so saying it has led too nothing seems like jumping the gun to me.
I meant to say intellectually dishonest. I was kind of seeing red at the moment. I know Tim didn't mean any disrespect with his post, I just found it less than excellent.
I never felt like I side stepped the claim andI explained above my take on the signatures above. I get a lot of replies to my wildly unpopular opinion and sometimes have to pick and choose my battles here. I have full time family and job responsibilities that take up a lot of my time and I can't reply to everything here.
You guys keep saying there is no evidence of fraud and all of the election officials agree is simply not a true statement. Leading up to this election there are countless articles and pieces on the potential for fraud in our voting system. Now 3 days post an election were 10,000+ people are willing to make claims of fraud, the govt comes out and says "nothing to see here", "most secure ever"... I'm not buying it.
I've said I'll accept the results once they are certified as per our constitution. I find it more shocking that people can't accept that stance.
JAA
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Unless Barr wants to start performing an investigation by his lonesome ... yes, "his" investigation is concluded.
Max Power
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I think most here are perfectly willing to see the election results are certified as per our constitution. The difference this time is the GOP is saying the election was stolen and the president is blocking the transitioning that always happens before the results of the election are officially certified.
Trump's opponent in the last election conceded the very next day in a much closer election where she won the popular vote -AND- the formal transitioning began the day after that. Are you saying that Obama should have waited until December to begin that process and the GOP would have been okay with that?
Unfortunately many of our country's long standing traditions and norms are dismissed by this administration and I find it shocking that people don't care.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Why? Do you have any proof that there was something nefarious going on?
If I was a Democrat, I would never agree to this. The machines could be perfect in every way, but the other side will claim there was something there, or that it wasn't their people that did the investigation, or etc.
Trump will continue to throw crap at the wall until he's dragged out of office. It's really pathetic.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
A man with such luxurious hair shouldn't spend time on a message board. You need to be seen, not read.Don’t worry, I’m sure I won’t be around for long.
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