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27 minutes ago, Max Power said:

So you're dismissing all his findings for that reason?  Do you support having another independent audit of his findings?

I have read the Michigan audit. It utterly fails to prove what it purports to prove. I have to question if anyone who thinks it does has actually read it. 

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Here's a question for you Max -- if Dominion voting machines were "designed to do [election fraud]" -- why has the Elite Strike Force legal team filed no lawsuits in California?

California election code requires that all electronic voting machine vendors place copies of their source code, firmware, build and configuration instructions into an "approved third party escrow facility" annually. This is specifically to be used in case of court orders relating to elections. Seems like that'd be an ideal way to present some proof of widespread voter fraud by Dominion, which several California counties use for vote tabulation.

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9 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Here's a question for you Max -- if Dominion voting machines were "designed to do [election fraud]" -- why has the Elite Strike Force legal team filed no lawsuits in California?

California election code requires that all electronic voting machine vendors place copies of their source code, firmware, build and configuration instructions into an "approved third party escrow facility" annually. This is specifically to be used in case of court orders relating to elections. Seems like that'd be an ideal way to present some proof of widespread voter fraud by Dominion, which several California counties use for vote tabulation.

We know Max's Dominion conspiracy theory is bunk because the Georgia hand recount didn't show any significant discrepancies.

We also know Max's Dominion conspiracy theory is bunk because Dominion isn't even used in many of the places where Trump claims Dominion switched votes! In fact, a review of 10 states found that Trump actually performed better when Dominion machines were used (link).

We're way past :tinfoilhat: here.

 

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23 minutes ago, Max Power said:

It's out there.

I have to ask, what is the end result of all this? I understand what you want, but at what point does pragmatism come into play? I agree that it was perfectly fine and legal to look into the results, and challenge what they felt needed to be challenged, but that is done. It’s no longer reasonable by most any standard. He lost, his lawyers lost, and we had a fair and well-run election. What is the end game? 

I was concerned about trump’s autocratic tendencies, and his attempts at subversion over the last four years, but everything held up fairly well. I was concerned about the tearing at our democratic norms and constitution the last six weeks, but it held up under the stress test, even while relying on trump appointed judges and justices. So, now what? Nationalist populist Rs don’t trust our elections going forward? They stop participating? You all are suppressing your own voters and their enthusiasm. The election is truly over, so why keep damaging your own party? 

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1 hour ago, Apple Jack said:

Any evidence yet?

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

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11 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

I think most people would say we're at no evidence of widespread fraud - which is what most people have said all along. You'll always have the handful of people who manage to cast a ballot for one of their dead relatives or something like that. 

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2 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:
15 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

I think most people would say we're at no evidence of widespread fraud - which is what most people have said all along. You'll always have the handful of people who manage to cast a ballot for one of their dead relatives or something like that. 

Of course. Just having a little fun with apple jack.

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53 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Here's a question for you Max -- if Dominion voting machines were "designed to do [election fraud]" -- why has the Elite Strike Force legal team filed no lawsuits in California?

California election code requires that all electronic voting machine vendors place copies of their source code, firmware, build and configuration instructions into an "approved third party escrow facility" annually. This is specifically to be used in case of court orders relating to elections. Seems like that'd be an ideal way to present some proof of widespread voter fraud by Dominion, which several California counties use for vote tabulation.

To that, if one wanted to eliminate Biden's EC lead and send it to the House...de-legitimizing CA's EC votes would be the only thing one would have to do.  

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42 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

:bag: 

Edited by Witz
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43 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

I think we're still waiting on #1, no?

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3 minutes ago, urbanhack said:
47 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

I think we're still waiting on #1, no?

No

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

Just wait until wide-scale fraud is proven and it shows Trump won.

I worry for my friends and family who won't entertain this idea.  Politics could potentially tear families apart in 2021 and it's a scary time. 

I wonder how anyone can still hold on to this thought and be serious about it.

why would anyone entertain the idea?  I mean that seri, why would or should anyone entertain the idea that wide scale fraud happened and will be proved?

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1 hour ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

We're way past that. Just to catch you up, we've gone from 

No evidence of Fraud, to

No evidence of widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, to 

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud that would change the outcome, to

No evidence of coordinated widespread fraud, except the post office, that would change the outcome.

Actually...the first part was never really a claim.   There is always a little fraud or mistakes here and there.  Its always been about no evidence of statistically significant fraud.  And we haven't moved past that or your number 2 thing on this list.

Because there is no evidence of widespread and significant fraud.  Saying so will require you to actually prove there was...and an affidavit is not proof of that.

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

Actually...the first part was never really a claim.   There is always a little fraud or mistakes here and there.  Its always been about no evidence of statistically significant fraud.  And we haven't moved past that or your number 2 thing on this list.

Because there is no evidence of widespread and significant fraud.  Saying so will require you to actually prove there was...and an affidavit is not proof of that.

Of course. It's why I take apple jack disingenuous questions about "any fraud" as little more than :pokey: An activity that I myself NEVER engage in.

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22 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I wonder how anyone can still hold on to this thought and be serious about it.

why would anyone entertain the idea?  I mean that seri, why would or should anyone entertain the idea that wide scale fraud happened and will be proved?

:shrug:

Why would anyone entertain the Russian story for almost four years?

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13 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Of course. It's why I take apple jack disingenuous questions about "any fraud" as little more than :pokey: An activity that I myself NEVER engage in.

Sure...its poking a bit...but not really a disingenuous question given POTUS still tweeting and going on and on about things and millions still believing him.  Seems appropriate to ask if any has been actually presented yet.  Thus far...no.

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1 minute ago, knowledge dropper said:

:shrug:

Why would anyone entertain the Russian story for almost four years?

This depends on what you mean.  Because too often "the Russian story" gets made it to be things it never was.

But why would anyone entertain stories about Russian interference in our election...because it is a proven fact that it actually happened.  

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3 hours ago, Gr00vus said:
3 hours ago, Max Power said:

There is about to be a full-scale forensic audit in Maricopa Co. Those results should be interesting. 

Hypothetical: Should they conduct this audit and find no significant discrepancies (just go with that for the sake of this question please), will you be satisfied that it's highly unlikely fraud to the scale sufficient to affect the election outcome occurred?

I already set the goal posts with @Max Power.  Unfortunately he moved them :cry:

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2 hours ago, the moops said:
2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think you need a couple hundred Dominion employees and a couple hundred useful idiots who think the ends justify the means.

OK, so even if this is all it takes, do you honestly think they could keep this a secret? Not one of them blurted something out to a nosy neighbor? Or to their mistress? We are an entire nation of useful idiots and we can't keep our mouths shut about anything these days

Or maybe ... just maybe ... and bear with me here ... there wasn't fraud and this was the actual result?  I know CRAZY right?  Completely improbable, just thought I would throw it out there for giggles.

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2 hours ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
2 hours ago, Max Power said:

So you're dismissing all his findings for that reason?  Do you support having another independent audit of his findings?

I have read the Michigan audit. It utterly fails to prove what it purports to prove. I have to question if anyone who thinks it does has actually read it. 

I read it also.  Its horrible and pure garbage

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5 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Ironically, I’m a technologist and have a good sense of how we could vastly improve our elections by trying post-paid mobile accounts and devices to an anonymized identity scheme that would virtually end fraud, or at least make it quite evident if it were to occur. It would essentially rely on someone with at least a six month billing history conforming their vote at the poll when it was connected through an app to a voting machine using an encrypted network connection. Upon confirmation, results would be written both to the server at the poll and a blockchain ledger, which should match. If the confirmed votes differed from the ledger, it would be immediately apparent, and results could be audited at the device level through carrier records if legally required.

Post paid requirement would prevent even allegations that someone bought a bunch of burner phones and established fake accounts, as it would cost hundreds of bucks and months of planning per device to orchestrate.

There are ways to eliminate nearly every vulnerability and restore complete trust.

I had a call with one of the Democratic candidates last year who was seeking to pilot something similar. 

Want to know who would make sure this absolutely doesn’t happen at scale?
 

Honestly I'd have a lot of concerns about tying voting to your ability to afford a cell phone. IMO that's an even worse version of requiring photo IDs in order to vote (effectively requiring that people have the money to acquire a state issued ID).

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43 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:
1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

I wonder how anyone can still hold on to this thought and be serious about it.

why would anyone entertain the idea?  I mean that seri, why would or should anyone entertain the idea that wide scale fraud happened and will be proved?

:shrug:

Why would anyone entertain the Russian story for almost four years?

How many convictions did it generate?

Or is this a whataboutism, sorry cant quite tell.

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3 hours ago, apalmer said:

That's what we heard about the recount in Georgia. That's what we heard about the Kraaken case in Michigan, the voter fraud in Wisconsin case and Rudy's brilliant lawyering in PA.  At some point, doesn't reality have to set in? Every time some wacko pushes a new unsupported theory, it's "going to be interesting" or "The big one". I guess you can fool some of the people all of the time.

Well, all of it was interesting. 

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:
27 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Honestly I'd have a lot of concerns about tying voting to your ability to afford a cell phone. IMO that's an even worse version of requiring photo IDs in order to vote (effectively requiring that people have the money to acquire a state issued ID).

Not mandatory. Optional and encouraged. Download an app. Confirm your vote on both voting machine screen and phone. Hit confirm on phone. Blockchain is immutable, so you know results cannot be altered or falsely recorded without immediate awareness.

An app would allow election officials to confirm that those votes that were validated match at the device level to what was cast and in the blockchain ledger. Even if half did this, it would flag variances between confirmed and unconfirmed votes and illuminate irregularities.

As a fellow technologist, please no, IMHO blockchain is a horrible idea for anything that is personally valuable (yes, that includes money).

How about we list to the the recently fired CISA and listen to why he thinks this election was the securest as ever?

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9 hours ago, knowledge dropper said:

Management closed the thread where they aired their Trump grievances unabated for four years after a similar Biden thread was started and locked. Now they just congregate in the ONE pro-Trump thread. 

Sounds about right, thanks for the explanation my friend. 

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

This depends on what you mean.  Because too often "the Russian story" gets made it to be things it never was.

But why would anyone entertain stories about Russian interference in our election...because it is a proven fact that it actually happened.  

Statistically insignificant

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2 hours ago, Mr. Ham said:

For the same reason Trump is pardoning Assange. Trump’s campaign collaborated with Russia.

We know for certain that Trump’s campaign manager, now in prison, shared polling data with a Russian spy. We also know through Mueller Report that Trump personally knew in advance that Assange would leak emails illegally and was supportive. Based on Stone commutation, it’s more than likely Stone coordinated on timing. Remember emails were leaked within minutes of Access Hollywood. And of course Don Jr. hosted a meeting to discuss coordinating on hacked Hillary emails. All along, Trump was pursuing a tower deal in Moscow. 

 

OMG.

your still all in on Russia.  so we wait 4 years of Russia Russia Russia.  Some people are--------------------------------------forget it-not worth my time.  so the echo chamber has officially entered all the political threads.

perfect.

have a nice life.

adios

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3 hours ago, urbanhack said:

Which one of the legal cases was successful?

Trump's lone win was to allow some observers to get slightly closer to election workers. It had nothing to do with fraud, unless you mean it in terms of "the fraud of claiming that you won a fraud case."

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16 hours ago, Mr. Ham said:

Not mandatory. Optional and encouraged. Download an app. Confirm your vote on both voting machine screen and phone. Hit confirm on phone. Blockchain is immutable, so you know results cannot be altered or falsely recorded without immediate awareness.

An app would allow election officials to confirm that those votes that were validated match at the device level to what was cast and in the blockchain ledger. Even if half did this, it would flag variances between confirmed and unconfirmed votes and illuminate irregularities.

And would generate Qanon level allegations like "Look at how many of the votes that weren't verified by the app went for Biden! How is it possible that most of the people who couldn't afford cell phones voted for him?"

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Mo Brooks is planning to lead a House objection to the electoral results on January 6. If one senator joins him, there will be a full blown debate and vote. McConnell had a call with Republican senators yesterday trying to convince them not to join as any floor debate and vote might have disastrous results for 2022. But Trump is pushing for it and calling allies. According to the NYT, the most likely senator to join Brooks is a new one, Tommy Tuberville, who was not part of McConnell’s call. 
 

And this will all happen a day AFTER the Georgia election. What a mess. 

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20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Mo Brooks is planning to lead a House objection to the electoral results on January 6. If one senator joins him, there will be a full blown debate and vote. McConnell had a call with Republican senators yesterday trying to convince them not to join as any floor debate and vote might have disastrous results for 2022. But Trump is pushing for it and calling allies. According to the NYT, the most likely senator to join Brooks is a new one, Tommy Tuberville, who was not part of McConnell’s call. 
 

And this will all happen a day AFTER the Georgia election. What a mess. 

Even if a Republican senator stepped forward to join Brooks for any of the states, and even after they ‘debate’ it for up to two hours, both houses would have to vote in unison to reject the electors which won’t happen. The end result will be the same either way - it’s just a question on how they wish to be viewed going forward (which McConnell knows this which is why he was asking what he was asking of them).  

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Just now, Witz said:

Even if a Republican senator stepped forward to join Brooks for any of the states, and even after they ‘debate’ it for up to two hours, both houses would have to vote in unison to reject the electors which won’t happen. The end result will be the same either way - it’s just a question on how they wish to be viewed going forward (which McConnell knows this which is why he was asking what he was asking of them).  

Exactly. He doesn’t want these guys to have to have their votes on record where they could either get primaried if they reject Trump or slammed in the general election if they support overturning the election results. 

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1 hour ago, tymarsas said:
18 hours ago, JAA said:

IMHO blockchain is a horrible idea for anything that is personally valuable (yes, that includes money).

Off topic, but I am really curious why you say that?

There are a number of examples of this.

From an operational standpoint, wallets are inherently dangerous:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Wallets.  Meaning, once you lose your keys you are done.  If someone gets your keys you are done.  There is no recourse.  Part of the benefits of our system is recourse.  Even the FDIC is valuable.  Back on point, could you imagine an app you use to manage your wallet gets compromised?  Or the hardware your wallet is on gets compromised?  Example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Security_issues

Next, take a look how forks work.  I dont like forks, I dont like how they come about, or how the decisions are made.  In addition, the more forks the more of this:  https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvakp3/a-major-bug-in-bitcoin-software-could-have-crashed-the-currency

:banned:

Edited by JAA
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5 minutes ago, JAA said:

There are a number of examples of this.

From an operational standpoint, wallets are inherently dangerous:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Wallets.  Meaning, once you lose your keys you are done.  If someone gets your keys you are done.  There is no recourse.  Part of the benefits of our system is recourse.  Even the FDIC is valuable.  Back on point, could you imagine an app you use to manage your wallet gets compromised?  Or the hardware your wallet is on gets compromised?  Example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Security_issues

Next, take a look how forks work.  I dont like forks, I dont like how they come about, or how the decisions are made.  In addition, the more forks the more of this:  https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvakp3/a-major-bug-in-bitcoin-software-could-have-crashed-the-currency

:banned:

There so much more that you are missing.

https://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/ 

https://decrypt.co/36990/large-companies-building-on-ethereum

 

Edited by urbanhack
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2 minutes ago, urbanhack said:
7 minutes ago, JAA said:

There are a number of examples of this.

From an operational standpoint, wallets are inherently dangerous:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Wallets.  Meaning, once you lose your keys you are done.  If someone gets your keys you are done.  There is no recourse.  Part of the benefits of our system is recourse.  Even the FDIC is valuable.  Back on point, could you imagine an app you use to manage your wallet gets compromised?  Or the hardware your wallet is on gets compromised?  Example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Security_issues

Next, take a look how forks work.  I dont like forks, I dont like how they come about, or how the decisions are made.  In addition, the more forks the more of this:  https://www.vice.com/en/article/qvakp3/a-major-bug-in-bitcoin-software-could-have-crashed-the-currency

:banned:

There so much more that you are missing.

https://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/ 

https://decrypt.co/36990/large-companies-building-on-ethereum

I've been in software my entire career and it never fails to astound me how much people trust software.

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5 minutes ago, JAA said:

I've been in software my entire career and it never fails to astound me how much people trust software.

I've been in B2B SaaS software for 20+ years and I'm going to disagree with you.  :)

 

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