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TRUMP TO INFINITY AND BEYOND HQ - The Great and Positive Place (17 Viewers)

I find this statement to be hollow, shallow and extremely self-serving considering the last 4 years of attacks from the left.  Now that "your guy" won, suddenly the left is acting as if that never happened at all.

You'll have to forgive conservatives if we just don't believe this.
I don't disagree with this. 

And I think it speaks to the bigger issue I'm talking about.

I think absolutely the Left attacked Trump more than they've ever attacked a Republican President. 

But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. 

A good bit of why the Left attacked Trump so hard is he attacked them. 

It takes two to fight. 

And fight they did. They'd hit him on something. Their side cheered. He'd hit them back with something. That side cheered. Each hit hurts a little more and the other side hits back a little harder. And you get what we got. 

Now that Biden has won, the obvious answer is the Trump voters would now like to start taking their swings at the President after 4 years of their President being swung at. 

At some point, I'm saying the answer is to chill and stop the escalation. 

It's not amnesia. It's not dismissing reality. It's being cool enough to show the other side some grace and realize we can move forward, if not totally together, at least fighting a little less. 

 
I don't disagree with this. 

And I think it speaks to the bigger issue I'm talking about.

I think absolutely the Left attacked Trump more than they've ever attacked a Republican President. 

But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. 

A good bit of why the Left attacked Trump so hard is he attacked them. 

It takes two to fight. 

And fight they did. They'd hit him on something. Their side cheered. He'd hit them back with something. That side cheered. Each hit hurts a little more and the other side hits back a little harder. And you get what we got. 

Now that Biden has won, the obvious answer is the Trump voters would now like to start taking their swings at the President after 4 years of their President being swung at. 

At some point, I'm saying the answer is to chill and stop the escalation. 

It's not amnesia. It's not dismissing reality. It's being cool enough to show the other side some grace and realize we can move forward, if not totally together, at least fighting a little less. 
All of your points are well-taken, Joe.  :thumbup:

I can only speak for me, but I feel like if we were to give in like you want then what's to prevent the "the left" from continuing their attacks in the future?  I think what we need to see, at least from MY side, is the left behave with dignity and civility when they AREN'T in power or when things don't go their way.  We haven't seen any of that, which is why calls for unity now sound hollow.

How about we start acting civil with the next GOP President instead of Biden?  It's the only way were going to know if "the left" is sincere in their calls for unity.

 
Fair enough.  You are free to express your views.  I actually enjoy reading any and all views, and hope you continue to post your thoughts.

I’d be interested in your response to the first paragraph you had quoted too.
I think the court record thing is slightly overblown. The other day Rudy said Trump's lawyers have only filed 3. I Think I saw they plan on 6 total one for each swing state. The rest are by other parties who align with Trump's interests.  I haven't followed every claim or ruling on each of those, but the actual trump team claims are making their way through the courts now.

I dont think someone can also say every us agency has looked and not seen fraud. The FBI just got Matt Braynard's work and is reportedly investigating it.

 
I agree, and cannot stress enough how vitally important the peaceful protests, in-depth media scrutiny, and open criticism of government has been over the past four years. I believe we would be in the grip of authoritarian rule without it, and that enough Republican politicians are in power now that they would seize that power against all historical precedent and our Constitution if they could. Look no further than 90% playing politics with the peaceful transfer of power. I said it then and also stand by what a watershed moment it was when GOP Senators voted not to fulfill their duty to hear evidence in the impeachment trial because they knew it was incriminating and would complicate the fact they were not going to enforce the law. 
If you don't think we see what you're doing, then you're being foolish.  I see your gaslighting and revisionist history in every post you're writing.  Simply put, ignoring what "your side" did the last four years and putting this all on "the right" and then coming off as righteous and moral is absurd.

Posts like yours is what infuriates me about this place.

 
To going back to where we were? There isn’t one. The only path is everybody stick to their little tribes and try to keep the overt threats of violence down. I don’t think we are heading to a civil war but I do worry that people are getting angrier and more violent and I worry what may be the fall out of that. 
In truth ... it'll probably turn out to be a cyclical thing in the long run (~20-50 years). We're just likely to be at a point where we can't see the off-ramp yet.

 
All of your points are well-taken, Joe.  :thumbup:

I can only speak for me, but I feel like if we were to give in like you want then what's to prevent the "the left" from continuing their attacks in the future?  I think what we need to see, at least from MY side, is the left behave with dignity and civility when they AREN'T in power or when things don't go their way.  We haven't seen any of that, which is why calls for unity now sound hollow.

How about we start acting civil with the next GOP President instead of Biden?  It's the only way were going to know if "the left" is sincere in their calls for unity.
In a word? I think the answer is "trust". And that's in short supply right now. 

I just started reading Pete Buttigieg's book. (I know. Democrat). Interestingly, called "Trust". But it opens with a fascinating story. He was in Iraq driving a military vehicle in public in a crowded area of town infamous for suicide bombers attacking vehicles. An Iraqi man approached Buttigieg's vehicle in traffic with a nervous look on his face. Traffic was so tight, cars were rubbing up against each other. As he got to the vehicle, Buttigieg had to decide whether to draw his weapon or risk being attacked. Turned out, there was a small piece of the man's bumper that had become lodged in the bumper of Buttigieg's vehicle and the man was just retrieving the piece. Crisis averted.

He then tells the story of being a boy and collecting baseball cards. He had his entire collection in a shoe box and decided to cash them in at the local card shop. The man behind the counter looked at the cards and said they were great but just wasn't in a position to buy them now. He did however have a brand new set of another card series that was so new and valuable, Becketts didn't even have it listed yet. But the value was way more than Buttigieg's cards. He offered to trade even and Buttigieg leapt at the deal and his good fortune. 

And of course, the set he traded for was nearly worthless. The man cheated him. 

I'm not sure where the book is going to go from there but my sense will be it's something I've long believed in. At some point, trust holds everything together. It's not just the legal contracts. It's the social contract we have with our fellow humans. 

So back to your question, I think the way we move forward is to trust each other. Even when it may not seem warranted. It's easy to trust the guy who's never let you down. Big deal. Trusting the other who may have hurt you in the past is more difficult. But I think it's needed.

And let's be real, we're not talking "trust" in the sense of letting someone watch your children. Or to repay you money. The "stakes" are pretty low in we're trusting the person to be cool. And to de-escalate the rancor. If they betray that trust, the worst we are off is back to where we are already. There's not a lot at risk. 

But I think it takes trust. 

 
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This post in my opinion totally ignores the toxicity of Trumpism. And I believe given some time history will record how dirty Trump fought and how outside the norms of honesty and fair play. Truth meant nothing to him compared the the result. He’s willing to lie, cheat, attack, denigrate, incite to get his way. Even up to and including making a play to seize power after losing an election. 

No previous politician would have dared.

And that way consistently benefited him over country for all four years of his tenure.

Nothing about Trumpism was fighting without the bounds of normal politics, and the tactics were not in any way rooted in public benefit. 
You and I are just in different universes on this.

Clearly, you'd rather continue to focus on the offenses of Trump and the people that voted for him. I get it. You'll have lots of company. The whatabout game is super popular. 

I'm talking about something totally different from that and moving forward. 

 
All of your points are well-taken, Joe.  :thumbup:

I can only speak for me, but I feel like if we were to give in like you want then what's to prevent the "the left" from continuing their attacks in the future?  I think what we need to see, at least from MY side, is the left behave with dignity and civility when they AREN'T in power or when things don't go their way.  We haven't seen any of that, which is why calls for unity now sound hollow.

How about we start acting civil with the next GOP President instead of Biden?  It's the only way were going to know if "the left" is sincere in their calls for unity.
I didn’t act civil in my response to President Trump at times. I called him, and many of his followers, rude names and treated them rudely at times. I did so because President Trump said and did things that I found beyond the pale: it wasn’t simply policy I disagreed with, it was things that I found to be truly reprehensible. 

If President Biden or any other President in the future says or does things I find reprehensible I will be uncivil in my response, I suspect, both to him and to those who approve such actions or statements. But it won’t be because “the other side did it first”. That seems silly to me. 

 
But so long as the President, Republican or Democrat or whatever, doesn’t say or do anything really awful, I see no reason to be rude to them. (And before anyone asks me how I would define “really awful” let’s put it this way: no President in modern history prior to the current one has ever given me cause to be uncivil.) 

 
This post in my opinion totally ignores the toxicity of Trumpism. And I believe given some time history will record how dirty Trump fought and how outside the norms of honesty and fair play. Truth meant nothing to him compared the the result. He’s willing to lie, cheat, attack, denigrate, incite to get his way. Even up to and including making a play to seize power after losing an election. 

No previous politician would have dared.

And that way consistently benefited him over country for all four years of his tenure.

Nothing about Trumpism was fighting without the bounds of normal politics, and the tactics were not in any way rooted in public benefit. 
I believe President Trump, not the GOP, have set back country unity about 20-30 years. 

 
I think politics is indeed cyclical. Social media is the game changer. We’re forever changed by it. And we’re stuck in a similar way we are with campaign finance reform, term limits, and other government reforms that would need those who benefit from them to vote against their self interests.

There would need to be sweeping regulations with social media that prevented it from being used as a tool of persuasion, and the party in power at a given time will be reluctant, especially as the platforms lobby and cozy up to lend aid.

It would also need a sort of enlightenment and pressure by users to demand truth and standards that run counter to the circus most crave. Yeah we should eat more broccoli, but people want bags of potato chips and that’s what sells. 
People will get numb to social media. The same with radio and tv. It will take time but the majority of people will just stop listening. It won’t be worth it. 

 
I didn’t act civil in my response to President Trump at times. I called him, and many of his followers, rude names and treated them rudely at times. I did so because President Trump said and did things that I found beyond the pale: it wasn’t simply policy I disagreed with, it was things that I found to be truly reprehensible. 

If President Biden or any other President in the future says or does things I find reprehensible I will be uncivil in my response, I suspect, both to him and to those who approve such actions or statements. But it won’t be because “the other side did it first”. That seems silly to me. 
As a public servant myself, I believe my constituents have the right to call me whatever names they want. I also believe I do not have the right to call them names back. I believe I am elected to work in service of them. It’s not a two way street. 

 
I think the court record thing is slightly overblown. The other day Rudy said Trump's lawyers have only filed 3. I Think I saw they plan on 6 total one for each swing state. The rest are by other parties who align with Trump's interests.  I haven't followed every claim or ruling on each of those, but the actual trump team claims are making their way through the courts now.

I dont think someone can also say every us agency has looked and not seen fraud. The FBI just got Matt Braynard's work and is reportedly investigating it.
Ok.  Fair enough.  Thanks for sharing your thought process.

 
...There was no avalanche here of black voters. They voted the same way they always do. ....Do you know anything about that city? Did you see the celebrations in the streets when Biden officially won? Would you like to come to Philly and do random samples of a thousand people who live here and ask them about their political leanings? ....




The Young Black Conservatives of Trump’s America

4,984,857 views •Jan 24, 2019

VICE 13.6M subscribers

In October of 2018, hundreds of young conservatives of color met up in Washington, DC, for the first ever Young Black Leadership Summit: a four-day conference that featured speeches from conservative actress Stacey Dash and firebrand Candace Owens, a trip to the White House to hear Trump speak, and a rare chance for young, black Republicans to get together and network IRL. VICE’s Lee Adams went to the summit to talk firsthand with young, black conservatives about what drew them to the Republican party, along with what kind of backlash they’ve faced from the black community for going public with their political views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWam9FSRvGI

Black Conservatives Debate Black Liberals on American Politics (Extended Version)

7,739,802 views •Mar 3, 2019

VICE 13.6M subscribers

By popular demand, this is an extended cut of the original version of this debate we published here on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIoC5ROaHk

 
Here we have an unprecedented abuse of power. Contrast this to “Democrats want socialism.” Oh, what have they done to suggest this? “They’ve proposed policy I don’t like, like universal healthcare and free higher education.” Oh, you mean Democratic socialism, which is practiced commonly in many of the countries with the highest standards of living and happiness.

You can see where there is not parity between what’s happening between parties. 
You really need to stop with this :bs: .

If you want to have a debate, be honest and fair and stop gaslighting.  And I don't think you know what "abuse of power" really means.  I can GUARANTEE you that it's not a phone call asking for something.

 
Trump called Georgia’s Governor Kemp this morning and asked him to overturn the state result. 
It's more fun to do it this way so everyone can mock. Better to use real links with facts.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/05/politics/trump-georgia-brian-kemp-phone-call/index.html

(CNN)President Donald Trump on Saturday called Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp, pushing him to convince state legislators to overturn President-elect Joe Biden's win in the state, a source familiar with the conversation told CNN.

Trump asked Kemp to call a special session and convince state legislators to select their own electors that would support him, according to the source. He also asked the Republican governor to order an audit of absentee ballot signatures.

Kemp explained that he did not have the authority to order such an audit and denied the request to call a special session, the source said.

 
Exactly. Levees designed for a Cat 4 are getting hit by a Cat 5 and holding. That’s good news, but hardly reassuring. Trump is trying to reverse the results of the election, and would stop at nothing if he could find more co-conspirators as willing to break law as he is. 
Which is what the Democrats were doing for the last 4 years.  I know two wrongs don't make a right (if what Trump did was, indeed, wrong - I doubt it) but this is tone deaf beyond all measure.

 
Which is what the Democrats were doing for the last 4 years.  I know two wrongs don't make a right (if what Trump did was, indeed, wrong - I doubt it) but this is tone deaf beyond all measure.
The biggest problem with your argument is this: had Trump been impeached and removed during the last 4 years (as I believe he should have been), then Mike Pence would have become President, not Hillary Clinton. So no I don’t believe that Democrats were trying to overturn the election. 

 
Which is what the Democrats were doing for the last 4 years.  I know two wrongs don't make a right (if what Trump did was, indeed, wrong - I doubt it) but this is tone deaf beyond all measure.
This is false and here is why...no attempt was made to reverse the 2016 election.  Beyond some very fringe claiming as such.  The Mueller investigation and later impeachment are not reversing the results of the election. Neither would have ended with Hillary as President.  It os a completely false statement to claim that for those reasons.

 
Do you guys oppose a sample signature audit? If so, why?

Seems like the type of thing that can help with credibility and an odd thing to oppose.

 
Do you guys oppose a sample signature audit? If so, why?

Seems like the type of thing that can help with credibility and an odd thing to oppose.
I went to vote and did a signature comparison.  The guy told me my old signature was different.  So I gave him a new one that I expect3d matched my old signature.  All good.

had I mailed it in it might not have passed.

I don’t support a sample signature audit as it’s subjective. 

 
Not really.  My signature isn't always the same. I wouldn't put it past an overzealous poll worker to try and disqualify me because my C has a bubble at the top in one sig and not in another.  
I imagine you always dot the i in Thunderlips with a little heart so you should be good.

ETA: Appreciate the responses to my question. Honestly not sure how to do an audit fairly (one of the reasons I'm not a fan of mail in ballots). But it does seem like some kind of audit would help restore confidence.

 
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 But it does seem like some kind of audit would help restore confidence.
I don’t agree. The people who lack confidence want Trump to win. There is no audit or hearing or investigation that will restore their confidence unless the result is that Trump won. Otherwise lthey will simply believe that the audit itself was corrupt. 
It was the same with the Warren Commission that investigated JFK’s death: those that established it thought that a thorough investigation would convince conspiracy theorists that Oswald was in fact the shooter. But all it did was make the Warren Commission part of the conspiracy theory. There is NO way to debunk a conspiracy theory.  

 
I don’t agree. The people who lack confidence want Trump to win. There is no audit or hearing or investigation that will restore their confidence unless the result is that Trump won. Otherwise lthey will simply believe that the audit itself was corrupt. 
It was the same with the Warren Commission that investigated JFK’s death: those that established it thought that a thorough investigation would convince conspiracy theorists that Oswald was in fact the shooter. But all it did was make the Warren Commission part of the conspiracy theory. There is NO way to debunk a conspiracy theory.  
Well I guess we won't know until we try, correct?  I mean, everyone should be for fair and transparent elections and ballot processing, right?

I mean, the government waste all kind of money on a irrelevant crap. This seems like a good investment.  We could put all that money that we're defunding from the police into something like this.  Seems like a win-win, no? Your side gets to defund police AND you get to prove that the elections aren't being stolen.

Seems to me that If people like you are so sure the election was on the up and up, then you would have no problem with something like this.

 
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Well I guess we won't know until we try, correct?  I mean, everyone should be for fair and transparent elections and ballot processing, right?

I mean, the government waste all kind of money on a irrelevant crap. This seems like a good investment.  We could put all that money that we're defunding from the police into something like this.  Seems like a win-win, no? Your side gets to defund police AND you get to prove that the elections aren't being stolen.

Seems to me that If people like you are so sure the election was on the up and up, then you would have no problem with something like this.
I don’t have any problem with it. I never said I would. 
I was disagreeing with the idea that it will restore confidence in those who currently lack it. It won’t. But I’m not opposed to it. 

 
I’m grateful we don’t have a norm of doing what Trump is doing because it’s a cancer, but had Gore and Kerry gone to the mat, there was actual wrongdoing in those elections. In 2000, hundreds of thousands of votes were disenfranchised by Katherine Harris in FL, and 2004 came down to Ohio and an AG who led Bush’s reelection campaign in the state amongst shenanigans. So whatever is alleged in 2020 is pittance compared to previous cycles where our country didn’t sit in tender hooks waiting for elections to be settled by audits and litigation. (I realize 2000 was settled by the Supreme Court, but Gore didn’t contest the result as he could have more reasonably than Trump. Also, 9/11 report cited friction in the transition as a contributor to diminished national security and the attacks.)
yeah, more gas lighting from you. I find it funny that the only fraud is an elections were the ones where Democrats lost.  But this election? Oh my God it's the fairest election ever!

Give me a break.  You're being so dishonest it's not even funny at this point.

 
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There is no audit or hearing or investigation that will restore their confidence unless the result is that Trump won. Otherwise lthey will simply believe that the audit itself was corrupt. 
It was the same with the Warren Commission that investigated JFK’s death: those that established it thought that a thorough investigation would convince conspiracy theorists that Oswald was in fact the shooter. But all it did was make the Warren Commission part of the conspiracy theory. There is NO way to debunk a conspiracy theory.  
I disagree. I'd like to see an audit myself and your comments about JFKs death seem completely irrelevant (and equally untrue).

Also stop with the “my side wants to defund the police” please. Nobody whom I voted for is in favor of that. 


For someone who paints with extremely broad brushes, you always seem to want a little more detail for yourself.

 
I’m grateful we don’t have a norm of doing what Trump is doing because it’s a cancer, but had Gore and Kerry gone to the mat, there was actual wrongdoing in those elections. In 2000, hundreds of thousands of votes were disenfranchised by Katherine Harris in FL, and 2004 came down to Ohio and an AG who led Bush’s reelection campaign in the state amongst shenanigans. So whatever is alleged in 2020 is pittance compared to previous cycles where our country didn’t sit in tender hooks waiting for elections to be settled by audits and litigation. (I realize 2000 was settled by the Supreme Court, but Gore didn’t contest the result as he could have more reasonably than Trump. Also, 9/11 report cited friction in the transition as a contributor to diminished national security and the attacks.)
Irregularities in previous elections seem to make the case FOR the possibility in this one, not against it.

Also your comments about 9/11 seem completely irrelevant (and untrue).

 
When this is done are we done or will there be the next simple thing?
It certainly can't hurt if we try, but sure, if my confidence can be restored then we can be done.

but on the same token, if it turns out there is massive fraud going on then you have to admit that we need to have better protections in voting and in the counting process and not complain about it.

I speak for America by the way!

 
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When this is done are we done or will there be the next simple thing?
I guess it would depend on the outcome of the audit right?

I don't want to get a time out - but THEORETICALLY just for the sake of discussion - if an audit uncovered illegal ballots, would you want them counted?

 
I guess it would depend on the outcome of the audit right?

I don't want to get a time out - but THEORETICALLY just for the sake of discussion - if an audit uncovered illegal ballots, would you want them counted?
So then what other posters are saying is true. You will only be happy when the result is you win.  One of my mantras is to never reward bad behavior.  That being the case, the answer is no as you are not acting in good faith.

 
So then what other posters are saying is true. You will only be happy when the result is you win.  One of my mantras is to never reward bad behavior.  That being the case, the answer is no as you are not acting in good faith.
I think you misinterpreted his post.  he wasn't saying that he would only do that if the outcome was favorable to him.  

clearly this subject would not be put to bed if there was indeed massive fraud going on so you can't be done with it like you want.

 
My argument is that continuity is more important than scorched earth until you find an angle where you win. Teams leave the field after the championship even if there were terrible calls. 
Thank you for your honesty Mr. Ham. I have a feeling you speak for many on the left.

 

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