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QB Jarrett Stidham, DEN (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Interseptopus
- Start date
GordonGekko
Footballguy
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Value is toast... people need to get off it. You didn’t find a gem, you didn’t find the next Brady. Cam is a former first overall pick, MVP talent who has lead a team to the Super Bowl. This was a done deal in April waiting on a physical. I doubt Stidham even beats out Hoyer and is a cut candidate for New England at this point.
https://twitter.com/lgsportsinsider/status/1277399477066895361?s=21
https://twitter.com/lgsportsinsider/status/1277399477066895361?s=21
-OZ-
Footballguy
GordonGekko
Footballguy
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Still take that cheerleader over a 300 pound whale
Cam isn't as good as he was. Stidham isn't good period
They said the same thing when Mike Vick went to jail for two years and had additional time off coming back. Talent is talent. Yep, he hasn’t been healthy. Absolutely. Suggesting they brought in Cam to backup a 4th rounder with 4 career attempts is not logical.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
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I'll agree with the Parcels quote. But they do have one QB: It's Cam
He was available because the Bears are idiots, and as you said the QB market was crowded. Also he was pretty picky about destinations not wanting to be a backup
From your idea of "an optimal development window," I take it you believe the Bucs should have drafted and played Jake Fromm rather than get Brady? or that the Colts should play Jacob Eason over Rivers?
Some QBs are just good and others are not. If you can't see why a former MVP who has had multiple stretches of top 10 QB play--including 2017 and the first half of 2018--has more upside than a 4th round pick with a stinker of a senior season and 14 yards and a "TD pass" of the Jameis Winston variety under his belt in the NFL, then I don't know what to say
Newton isn't perfect and personally I still think the Patriots are worse than the Bills and not locks for the playoffs, but with Stidham they were a real possibility to finish in the cellar of the division and get a top 5 pick. Now I can at least take them seriously
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
I don't think Cam has much left as mileage, beatings, injuries, and age have caught up to him. It'll be interesting to watch, though. BB has shown he's not going to roll out the big name if there's a better option. I also think Cam is likely in a tough spot with COVID restrictions while Stidham already knows the system. My money is on Stidham to start game 1 but Cam could surprise and/or take over if Stidham flops. Seems like a potential locker room disaster if Cam doesn't win outright... not sure I see him playing the humble, "team first" clipboard holder with grace and dignity.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Legit lol at this topic title change.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
his shoulder was the biggest hinderance. He reportedly looked awesome last preseason & I saw a few clips of him throwing deep that looked like “the old Cam”.
If he’s coming into the season healthy, I’m not buying this narrative at all.
one could make the argument that they did exactly that with Brady the last 2 years before the JimmyG trade.
Brady’s arm strength & accuracy seemingly weren’t as good as JimmyG. Jury’s still out on Garrapolo, but I have no doubt Newton will be called on to start over Stidham if he’s healthy. And we don’t know if Stidham is better than Cam Newton, a former MVP, so it’s a bit weird to frame it with the assumption that Stidham > CamVP.
I’m not sure what gives you that impression - Cam has been humble at times. If he legit loses his gig to Stidham I don’t see him pouting on the sidelines either.
That said, I don’t see how Cam doesn’t win the job. IMO if it’s Stidham, that means Cam isn’t healthy. That’s the only way I see it breaking that way.
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As a Chiefs fan: I've seen both up close over the last couple years in the biggest moments. Brady's better; it ain't close.his shoulder was the biggest hinderance. He reportedly looked awesome last preseason & I saw a few clips of him throwing deep that looked like “the old Cam”.
If he’s coming into the season healthy, I’m not buying this narrative at all.
one could make the argument that they did exactly that with Brady the last 2 years before the JimmyG trade.
Brady’s arm strength & accuracy seemingly weren’t as good as JimmyG. Jury’s still out on Garrapolo, but I have no doubt Newton will be called on to start over Stidham if he’s healthy. And we don’t know if Stidham is better than Cam Newton, a former MVP, so it’s a bit weird to frame it with the assumption that Stidham > CamVP.
I’m not sure what gives you that impression - Cam has been humble at times. If he legit loses his gig to Stidham I don’t see him pouting on the sidelines either.
That said, I don’t see how Cam doesn’t win the job. IMO if it’s Stidham, that means Cam isn’t healthy. That’s the only way I see it breaking that way.
Garoppolo had a top offensive mind in the game, 3 backs better than the 2019 Pats lead back in Sony, a better OL even when healthy and one that did a better job staying healthy, two WRs (Deebo and Sanders) better than the Patriots' best, and the prime version of Gronk as opposed to old, always injured one (or no Gronk), and I still feared Brady touching the ball so much more, and not just because of name value.
With that said, I agree Cam is the starter if healthy--no doubt about it. Bellichick has constantly adapted his defensive schemes and (though to a lesser extent due to the continuity of Brady) his offensive ones as well. Cam gives them the best chance to win so his strengths will be played to.
That said: if by some miracle Stidham wins the job, I can't imagine Cam being a happy benchwarmer. I don't think he is a bad guy or bad teammate, but he is a unique combination of emotional and competitive. He reportedly turned down more lucrative offers as a backup to have a starter job within reach as well
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If Cam doesn't win the job, they might night even keep him. A lot also depends on how seriously they think they can win a SB this year. If they need to figure out what they have in Stidham, playing Newton won't tell them anything . . . and Cam could easily walk after this year. I hate to keep banging the same drum, but I don't think it is etched in stone that they are viewing Newton as the clear QB1.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
yeah; well, that’s like, your opinion, maaaaan.
/Lebowski
we both have our takes. I saw a Brady that was shaky in the pocket, held onto the ball too long, and who’s deep passes looked slow & wobbly.
i can’t help but wonder if the Bucs made a mistake not going after Cam instead.
I don’t disagree with his competitiveness. But I think he has more class than to sulk if for whatever reason Stidham starts, as unlikely as that scenario is.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
If Cam comes in healthy and back to his old form he's a steal and will start. I just think that's unlikely.his shoulder was the biggest hinderance. He reportedly looked awesome last preseason & I saw a few clips of him throwing deep that looked like “the old Cam”.
If he’s coming into the season healthy, I’m not buying this narrative at all.
one could make the argument that they did exactly that with Brady the last 2 years before the JimmyG trade.
Brady’s arm strength & accuracy seemingly weren’t as good as JimmyG. Jury’s still out on Garrapolo, but I have no doubt Newton will be called on to start over Stidham if he’s healthy. And we don’t know if Stidham is better than Cam Newton, a former MVP, so it’s a bit weird to frame it with the assumption that Stidham > CamVP.
I’m not sure what gives you that impression - Cam has been humble at times. If he legit loses his gig to Stidham I don’t see him pouting on the sidelines either.
That said, I don’t see how Cam doesn’t win the job. IMO if it’s Stidham, that means Cam isn’t healthy. That’s the only way I see it breaking that way.
Jimmy G circa 2017 was not ready to supplant Brady. Maybe his arm strength and accuracy were better than Brady's but that difference is a wash when factoring in Brady's otherworldly pocket presence and command of the field. Jimmy G circa 2018 vs. Brady... who knows? The 2019 version is definitely in Jimmy's favor but the argument is that BB started the Big Name (Brady) when JG was better and that's just not true. Brady tailed off precipitously in the post-JG seasons. The narrative when JG was shipped was that BB was ready to have him taking over, likely as a 2018 play when Brady's contract was at/near its end.
I'm not framing it as Stidham > CamVP, as you state. I'm framing it as no longer believing Cam can put together a MVP season. Time will tell. I do agree that Cam could potentially be gone if Stidham does win the job, whether it's through a StUDham performace, or Cam just being toast.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ok, that’s fair. But I am skeptical Stidham beats out a heslthy Cam Newton.If Cam comes in healthy and back to his old form he's a steal and will start. I just think that's unlikely.
Jimmy G circa 2017 was not ready to supplant Brady. Maybe his arm strength and accuracy were better than Brady's but that difference is a wash when factoring in Brady's otherworldly pocket presence and command of the field. Jimmy G circa 2018 vs. Brady... who knows? The 2019 version is definitely in Jimmy's favor but the argument is that BB started the Big Name (Brady) when JG was better and that's just not true. Brady tailed off precipitously in the post-JG seasons. The narrative when JG was shipped was that BB was ready to have him taking over, likely as a 2018 play when Brady's contract was at/near its end.
I'm not framing it as Stidham > CamVP, as you state. I'm framing it as no longer believing Cam can put together a MVP season. Time will tell. I do agree that Cam could potentially be gone if Stidham does win the job, whether it's through a StUDham performace, or Cam just being toast.
And I suspect BB is happy to have a more experienced QB under center for his complex offensive schemes.
Finally, new rule: you can’t give players catchy nicknames until they’ve done something to earn em. “STUDham” will have to wait.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Randy Moss wasn’t too bad in NE. Corey Dillon very solid as well. BB loves him a reclamation project.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
I play by my own rules.Ok, that’s fair. But I am skeptical Stidham beats out a heslthy Cam Newton.
And I suspect BB is happy to have a more experienced QB under center for his complex offensive schemes.
Finally, new rule: you can’t give players catchy nicknames until they’ve done something to earn em. “STUDham” will have to wait.
I won't guess at the ratio of success:failure with these reclamation players. I will be very excited should Cam earn Comeback POY, though. I like him a lot. There's plenty of cap room in 2021, too. I'm just not all that optimistic.
ZWK
Footballguy
Antonio Brown, Demaryius Thomas, Josh Gordon, Phillip Dorsett, Kenny Britt, Michael Floyd, Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Joey Galloway, Randy Moss.
James Harrison, Barkevious Mingo, Steven Jackson, Aqib Talib, Albert Haynesworth, Kellen Winslow.
ZWK
Footballguy
This is not a complete list. I didn't go back before moss, and with the non-WRs it's just a few of the biggest names. Could add Jamie Collins, Shea McClellin, and some others.
Not a reclamation project - cost 'em a 2nd round pick.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
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-OZ-
Footballguy
I loved watching cam while I was living in NC. He was often very fun to watch. But he's not a QB I'd have much confidence in to run the Patriots complex offense.
-OZ-
Footballguy
That's what a good coach does.That is the beauty. They will run an offense that fits him.
They'll almost certainly be top ten in rushing attempts again, and if there's one team cam can succeed on in 2020, it's the Patriots.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Run first with lots of play action will certainly work in Cam's favor. Still, he wasn't well rated by PFF in his post-MVP seasons. Pretty good article on PFF about it. Again, I really like him and would love to see a renaissance but it seems far fetched when all evidence points to a guy who has hit an age/mileage/injury wall.
"...over the past three full seasons (postseason included)...
13.2% of Newton's passes were charted as “high” or “overthrown,” per PFF's QB charting process. Of players with over 300 throws, that’s only better than Josh Rosen, Mason Rudolph and Jeff Driskel."
"...over the past three full seasons (postseason included)...
13.2% of Newton's passes were charted as “high” or “overthrown,” per PFF's QB charting process. Of players with over 300 throws, that’s only better than Josh Rosen, Mason Rudolph and Jeff Driskel."
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Context seems important. Is he more capable of running an offense than Hoyer? Or Stidham?!
there ya go.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I'm a little confused. 31 other teams passed on Cam for a $1M a year base salary. He's been on the market for 3 months and there was little to no interest. As soon as he signed with NE, the majority of people immediately focus and hover on Cam being a former MVP, went to the SB, and led a 15-1 team. They completely ignore that his last season and a half saw him get seriously injured twice with a combined 0-8 record. But upon joining NE, he suddenly is back to being an MVP-level, SB-leading QB when the day before he was out of the league. If he signed in Jacksonville, there could easily have been a narrative that they signed a washed up Cam that 31 other teams all passed on, and probably would not have been an upgrade to Minshew.
Maybe Newton is healthy . . . learns the playbook quickly . . . magically has an instant connection with the offense . . . fits in with BB and the coaching staff . . . beats out Stidham . . . and starts Week 1 and all season . . . and dramatically cuts down on his turnovers (all this with hardly any practice). That to me sounds like the rosiest of rosy outcomes. Yet a bunch of people have migrated to having that position.
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woodstock
Footballguy
There's probably good reason to back Newton over Stidham, not the least of which is the lack of draft capital used on Stidham when he was drafted. How many teams passed on him at a rookie-controlled rate? Lots. And they passed on him 132 times. That's quite a bit. It leads one to believe the that the quality of play ascertained by professionals who do just this for a living wasn't that stellar.
I know it was better than people think, but that's the likely reason people are backing the former Super Bowl QB who won a Heisman as the likely starter. And injuries, physicals, and COVID complications fairly easily explain why nobody would or could sign Cam.
I know it was better than people think, but that's the likely reason people are backing the former Super Bowl QB who won a Heisman as the likely starter. And injuries, physicals, and COVID complications fairly easily explain why nobody would or could sign Cam.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If everything about Newton was hunky dory, Carolina would have signed him over Teddy Bridgewater (he himself an injury reclamation project). The Panthers opted for a player that's actually played fewer games than Newton has the past few seasons. Bridgewater has only made 6 starts over the past 4 seasons. Yet the Panthers gave him a 3 year deal for $63 million with $33 million guaranteed. One would think the Panthers would welcome back the QB and fan favorite that was league MVP, led them to the best regular season record in the league over the past 12 years, and got them into the Super Bowl. Does any of this make anyone's antenna go up? Who would know more about Newton's skills, capabilities, and health than the Panthers?
woodstock
Footballguy
Just as likely that Carolina wanted to move on and rebuild rather than their decision being indicative of Newton's abilities or health. Bridgewater is a stopgap, nothing more. There was a whole new crew in Carolina from ownership down, if I'm not mistaken. They want their guy in there, not somebody else's, and they're going to rebuild it all. So Newton had to go. That sounds more like Occam's razor to me than them knowing exactly how healthy he was was.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
How is that any different than the situation in NE? Newton will likely be a one year, stop gap option in NE. It's doubtful they will pay him market value next year and Bill will want a long term solution at QB. He could have that in Stidham, but they can't possibly know that if they don't play him. I have heard several former NE players and analysts mention that BB would prefer to groom his own QBs vs. bringing in someone else from the outside with knowledge of other systems and bad habits.
I think NE hopes Stidham can outplay Newton in training camp, as Stidham offers a multi-year solution at the QB position at extremely low dollars. I did hear a roundtable discussion last night that took a bit of the middle ground . . . they roll with Cam this year, Stidham learns more of the offense, and then takes over as starter next year (and Cam gets signed elsewhere). The issue I have with that is they still have no idea what Stidham could do, so they would basically be in QB limbo next year as well.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m a little confused. People believe that a guy who’s never taken an NFL snap, who was 3rd string last year was magically the locked-in starter for the New England Patriots, and act surprised that people assume a former MVP that the Pats brought in is assumed to be the starter despite having taken a team to the super bowl, having been a proven leader of men, and having the experience that BB so consistently has shown a preference for.
see how that goes both ways?
The framing that anyone has to “beat out Stidham” seems ridiculous to me, especially considering he’s never been named the starter. That was assumed by many but never stated by team nor coach.
Vegas has the odds of Newton starting at -400, so if you’re that confident in your assertions, BET THE HOUSE!
You also left out that Newton didn’t want to be a backup, and reportedly held out until after the draft & a rash of signings for a shot at a starting job, which reportedly he’s in line for in NE.
but again - Vegas has your boy at +300 so you bout to be rich!
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
BB never "names a starter" at any position. Not ever. Every year he gives the players and the media the same speech that each year is different and every player is fighting for a roster spot and playing time, let alone a starting role. He wouldn't even say Brady was locked in as a starter (and if it were up to Bill, Brady likely would have been gone well before this season).I’m a little confused. People believe that a guy who’s never taken an NFL snap, who was 3rd string last year was magically the locked-in starter for the New England Patriots, and act surprised that people assume a former MVP that the Pats brought in is assumed to be the starter despite having taken a team to the super bowl, having been a proven leader of men, and having the experience that BB so consistently has shown a preference for.
see how that goes both ways?
The framing that anyone has to “beat out Stidham” seems ridiculous to me, especially considering he’s never been named the starter. That was assumed by many but never stated by team nor coach.
Vegas has the odds of Newton starting at -400, so if you’re that confident in your assertions, BET THE HOUSE!
You also left out that Newton didn’t want to be a backup, and reportedly held out until after the draft & a rash of signings for a shot at a starting job, which reportedly he’s in line for in NE.
but again - Vegas has your boy at +300 so you bout to be rich!
BB is going to pick whichever player he feels will most help the team and that player will have to earn the starting role. Sure, if Cam comes in and is A) healthy, B) shows no signs of wear and tear or rust, C) learns the plays and the system, D) fits in and gains chemistry with the offense, and E) doesn't butt heads with BB and the coaching staff, then sure . . . Cam would be the starter. As of now, we have no ideas or answers any of the items on that list.
We also have no idea where Stidham ranks in those same areas. As for the argument that Cam was the first pick in the draft and went to a SB, so did Drew Bledsoe. When Bledsoe got hurt, Bill stuck with the 6th round QB in Brady when Drew was ready to play. BB is not adverse to doing what he wants, even if it is counter to what other people would do.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
lol - yes, I missed the greatness that was Stidham’s uh, glorious, debut. But hey, he put 6 point on the board on his 1st career drive!
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Im pretty sure he did that when he signed Cam Newton.’
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
woodstock
Footballguy
But we're arguing about who starts this year. The only reason I brought up the stopgap Bridgewater was that the motive behind getting rid of Cam wasn't Cam, it was a rebuild with new ownership. That's irrelevant to the situation he now finds himself in. New England is nowhere near a rebuild.Anarchy99 said:
I agree they'd probably love to see what Stidham has without any interference, but then if they really wanted that, they wouldn't have signed somebody like Newton.
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